Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The issue with the current system I see is if it is so good, why have has no one else adopted it and we are a minority of one in this regard as to funding defence and as to the analysis difference in the 70's and 80's that the simpler analysis still gave us good results unless defence was forced into a corner by the pollies. In the 60's,70's and 80's NZD had a world wide reputation for how right they got their capital acquisitions considering their capital constrains and this was simply done by getting the basic's right to start with.
We all have a biased view coloured by our own experiences in service the 1970 - 1990's was for all intents and purposes a first in best dressed affair when it came to procure new capability & we all know that the three services cut each others throats at the first opportunity yes they did get there capital acquisitions through but at the expense of another service.

As the current GG briefed us before he left as CA to CDF NZDF have to get alot smarter when dealing with treasury & pollies they have to talk with one voice and all procurement's must be purple based to even make the first cut unless they are single service requirements only.

A classic point is the MARs L rifle it originally was a Army only project that rightfully had to change to encompass the other services needs, having seen the analysis over the time period it took I can attest that if it had stayed an single service requirement then we would still be using the IW Steyr and thats the point that nearly everyone is missing if it does not meet our CONOPS is not Joint and fully costed for its full life time with mid life upgrades included then its dead in the water & ZA is correct in pointing that out the hit rate with current NZDF projects cannot be faulted by both treasury or the pollies.

CD
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Changing tack:

Some recent titbits regarding the OSV type pathway to replace the Manawanui and Resolution as the future RNZN LWSV were recently noted via an interview with the Project Capability Manager.

Oceanographic Survey Vessels can “enable crucial capability†for military operations, says New Zealand’s Littoral Warfare LT CDR | Defence Learning Portal | Defence News, World Military News & Global Security | Defence IQ - IQPC

Some quotes:

“Merging these capabilities and combining them in one ship focuses their attention on amphibious/Advance force operations, which is a key driver in the NZDF’s strategic plan,” said Lt Cdr Hall.

“Our new ship will include hydrographic capabilities appropriate to our operating area in the South Pacific. Any autonomous systems we acquire will have bathymetric sensors as well as object detection, and we are looking into expanding our exploitation of technology especially in remote sensing.”

“One area here that stands out for me is the proliferation of multibeam systems. This means that as their cost comes down they are gaining application in various areas – for example increasing portability.

“As far as OSV utility specifically, an OSV can provide a very useful platform given its large working deck, generous accommodation space, basic helicopter capability and ship handling (Dynamic Positioning). Once modified for military use and properly employed OSVs can enable crucial capability in the spectrum of military operations.”

It seems that something similar to Skipsteknisk’s ST-344 design that formed the basis of the RSS Discovery and the planned Peruvian vessel is what they are likely to be after.

http://www.skipsteknisk.no/product_sheet.aspx?type=1&menu=34&id=130
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
We all have a biased view coloured by our own experiences in service the 1970 - 1990's was for all intents and purposes a first in best dressed affair when it came to procure new capability & we all know that the three services cut each others throats at the first opportunity yes they did get there capital acquisitions through but at the expense of another service.

As the current GG briefed us before he left as CA to CDF NZDF have to get alot smarter when dealing with treasury & pollies they have to talk with one voice and all procurement's must be purple based to even make the first cut unless they are single service requirements only.

A classic point is the MARs L rifle it originally was a Army only project that rightfully had to change to encompass the other services needs, having seen the analysis over the time period it took I can attest that if it had stayed an single service requirement then we would still be using the IW Steyr and thats the point that nearly everyone is missing if it does not meet our CONOPS is not Joint and fully costed for its full life time with mid life upgrades included then its dead in the water & ZA is correct in pointing that out the hit rate with current NZDF projects cannot be faulted by both treasury or the pollies.

CD
I would have to agree that I cannot find fault with any current programs, However I do find fault with the defence funding model, the simple fact is that it was judged as ill fitting for defence by the government's own review when it was first introduced and never been copied elsewhere. having been in lower and middle management in production businesses, I do understand it's benefits in that sector, but in a high capital national service I think it is ill fitting and is a cause of conflict between capital and operational needs. It works well in a profit model and in a low capital service model, but defence is neither of these. It is a likely point of pressure that has influenced the deterioration in the terms of service for servicemen.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I would have to agree that I cannot find fault with any current programs, However I do find fault with the defence funding model, the simple fact is that it was judged as ill fitting for defence by the government's own review when it was first introduced and never been copied elsewhere. having been in lower and middle management in production businesses, I do understand it's benefits in that sector, but in a high capital national service I think it is ill fitting and is a cause of conflict between capital and operational needs. It works well in a profit model and in a low capital service model, but defence is neither of these. It is a likely point of pressure that has influenced the deterioration in the terms of service for servicemen.
Well you go with the system you have rather than the system you wish regardless the point missed is still if the capability does not mesh with our Con-ops is not Joint it wont make the cut & its time to head back to discussing the RNZN.

CD
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Let's have some analysis then. Rather than launch in to a diatribe about what views you seem to think I hold, perhaps you could start with the point that shifting DNB to another location wouldn't justify the capital outlay. If that option fails to meet an investment test, what options do you see as being viable to address salary and benefit challenges of living in Auckland? "Show me your working" as they say.
Recently I was reading an interesting paper by Allen Schick (1998) "Why most developing countries should not try NZs reforms". It discusses the NZ model of government by contract; it's impacts both beneficial and detrimental. One of the points that it makes is that this model has effectively reduced the ability of government ministers to rein in their departments if they get out of hand. Another text that I refer to now and again is Peter Greener's "Timing is Everything". If you haven't acquainted yourself with it, I suggest that you do. The reason that Roger Douglas and Co embarked upon neoliberal economic reforms in particular in 1984 was because Treasury introduced it to them and the rest is history. I do not argue against the need for immediate economic reforms in 1984 because they were an absolute necessity. What I argued against and still do, was the extremes that the reforms went to.

My first and foremost loyalty is to my brothers and sisters who are in uniform. They do not have the legal ability nor right to campaign or fight for their pay and conditions. Hence those of us who have served before have to do that for them. They are caught up in any rationalisation of NZDF and whilst the policy is that their interests are included, in reality that is usually only by senior officers within NZDF and then not by all of them. As Volkadov has pointed out those officers hands are tied as well if they want to progress. The point I am making is that any rationalisation is about far more than just figures on a balance sheet. It is also about people - he tangata, he tangata, he tangata (it is people, it is people, it is people).

The second point is what is good for the service. This works in multiple ways. The people within do have expectations and hopes, however at the end they have to be placed where it is best for the service. What locale would best be for the navy? DNB is becoming more of a hindrance as time goes by and it is my argument that it is time to think about other locations for the fleet. If it remains at some stage it will have to be replaced because of a natural hazard, climate change or anthropogenic factors, such as local politics and population pressure. The current base has no room for expansion as well. In the long term the cost of staying will far out weigh the cost of leaving.

Where to go? Vicinity of Picton? Maybe but there would be a large nimby factor there. I remember the fast ferry controversy with regard to the Tory Channel and the misinformation that the protesters put out about that. I saw and read the research that was done regarding the fast ferry wakes because I knew the people who did it. One of them was my mentor. I opt for two separate bases, one north and one south island because it gives the navy a wider geographical terrestrial footprint and that has to be good for recruitment and retention. It also will give the navy greater flexibility in fleet utilisation because it will not be spatiality tied. For example if there were fleet bases in both Lyttelton and Wanganui the navy would have an eastern and western base plus it would be close to army assets which is important in the context of the JATF.

I do suggest that you read up on some history because I did not write a tirade as you put it. Right after WW2 ended Treasury and the govt of the day reverted true to form and slashed defence funding without thought for the future. They hamstrung the Navy, Army and Air departments financially whilst they were winding down and demobbing sailors, soldiers and airmen from the war. Many were on make work programmes until their demob was actioned. The hierarchy of the three departments were not blameless either in the subsequent mutinies and after all of the demobs the attitudes from the govt and respective hierarchies didn't really change. They hadn't learned from the experiences. When your troops mutiny it means that you have serious problems, especially in a ABCNZ military where their is a common heritage, history, training, military culture and philosophy. The ADF, CF & NZDF all have the institutional memory inherited from the British military and those lessons are usually never forgotten. Unfortunately the same cannot be said for the pollies and the public service. One point that Schick did make about NZ government management, was that now the public service institutional memory is becoming dessicated because of the contract system.

If one is willing to learn from here, all well and good however a robust discussion does need to be held and all views challenged. Funding policy around defence in NZ is pitiful from a defence point of view with short sighted policies creating expensive long term problems. There are Treasury papers that have been submitted to Cabinet that write defence policy. The real problem that I and others have is that from all appearances Treasury doesn't understand the basics about defence and that is costing the country dearly financially.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I want to get it all back into talking about the Navy.

NZDF Funding is a NZDF thread and should be directed over there. I also think for now that any potential base relocation is quite long term and speculatory at this stage. What we do know is that 1. Auckland is unaffordable and 2. It is tough to work in Defence in Auckland because of number 1.
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
Recently I was reading an interesting paper by Allen Schick (1998) "Why most developing countries should not try NZs reforms". It discusses the NZ model of government by contract; it's impacts both beneficial and detrimental. One of the points that it makes is that this model has effectively reduced the ability of government ministers to rein in their departments if they get out of hand.
I think you're taking Schick's work out of context. His idea was that developing countries with informal markets (risk reform candidates to start with) were better concentrating on other reforms first, like moving to a rules-based system. I do find it curious that you're suggesting a source with the temerity to work for treasury. But the arguments above surely that means he can't be trusted and is hamstrung by the need to protect his career?

Moving on....

If DNB were to be moved, you'd need to weigh up some options. One such option would be to forget about moving and make a decision to invest more in pay and conditions. I'd guess that to raise pay and entitlements by 20% across the board would cost around $40M a year. Compare that to approx $650M (at a guess) to create a new naval base somewhere. The Clifford Bay proposal was estimated to be around $450M without much in the way of facilities. Add barracks, messes, ranges, medical centres, engineering shops, etc and I doubt you'd get much change. If it was going to be funded from current baselines it would mean that the new base would suck up every cent of property investment for half a decade, while the rest of the estate doesn't get any work done on it. Now obviously those figures can be massaged a bit, but I suggest that if you start looking at what a new base facility would cost to be established it's incredibly unlikely to ever happen.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Changing tack:

Some recent titbits regarding the OSV type pathway to replace the Manawanui and Resolution as the future RNZN LWSV were recently noted via an interview with the Project Capability Manager.

Oceanographic Survey Vessels can “enable crucial capability†for military operations, says New Zealand’s Littoral Warfare LT CDR | Defence Learning Portal | Defence News, World Military News & Global Security | Defence IQ - IQPC

Some quotes:

“Merging these capabilities and combining them in one ship focuses their attention on amphibious/Advance force operations, which is a key driver in the NZDF’s strategic plan,” said Lt Cdr Hall.

“Our new ship will include hydrographic capabilities appropriate to our operating area in the South Pacific. Any autonomous systems we acquire will have bathymetric sensors as well as object detection, and we are looking into expanding our exploitation of technology especially in remote sensing.”

“One area here that stands out for me is the proliferation of multibeam systems. This means that as their cost comes down they are gaining application in various areas – for example increasing portability.

“As far as OSV utility specifically, an OSV can provide a very useful platform given its large working deck, generous accommodation space, basic helicopter capability and ship handling (Dynamic Positioning). Once modified for military use and properly employed OSVs can enable crucial capability in the spectrum of military operations.”

It seems that something similar to Skipsteknisk’s ST-344 design that formed the basis of the RSS Discovery and the planned Peruvian vessel is what they are likely to be after.

http://www.skipsteknisk.no/product_sheet.aspx?type=1&menu=34&id=130
Looks quite interesting and not a silly idea. It appears to have quite a bit of potential especially because it appears to have the capability to replace Tui, Resolution and Manawanui. I have added Tui because of the science and research component that Tui used to undertake. If it is ice strengthed even better.

Whether or not it should undertake Antarctic fisheries surveillance and enforcement is something that needs to be discussed. My own view is that this role could be a supplementary role rather than a core role. IMHO it would be, in the long term, a better option to have ice strengthened OPVs because that just gives you greater flexibility. As time goes by we will need to be able to project greater maritime power in and around the Antarctic waters as resources become scarce elsewhere.
 

chis73

Active Member
Some recent titbits regarding the OSV type pathway to replace the Manawanui and Resolution as the future RNZN LWSV were recently noted via an interview with the Project Capability Manager.

Oceanographic Survey Vessels can “enable crucial capability†for military operations, says New Zealand’s Littoral Warfare LT CDR | Defence Learning Portal | Defence News, World Military News & Global Security | Defence IQ - IQPC
Agreed Mr C, probably time to change tack.

I'm curious as to the apparent RNZN interest in an oceanographic vessel (oceanographic not being the same thing as hydrographic), considering:
a) most oceanographic work can be undertaken by NIWA's Tangaroa,
b) RNZN has no submarines, nor are NZ's current ASW surface & air force assets very well equipped. We used to do oceanographic research (eg. with Tui) when ASW was a stronger focus.
c) Diving isn't a deep-sea activity either.

Is there any military requirement now-days? The only thing I can think of is that they want a vessel large enough to have good seakeeping while voyaging into the Pacific. It would probably have to carry a shallow-draught launch to undertake real hydrographic work. Autonomous underwater drones have had a few hiccups (eg. LCS programme) lately - are they really ready for prime-time?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think you're taking Schick's work out of context. His idea was that developing countries with informal markets (risk reform candidates to start with) were better concentrating on other reforms first, like moving to a rules-based system. I do find it curious that you're suggesting a source with the temerity to work for treasury. But the arguments above surely that means he can't be trusted and is hamstrung by the need to protect his career?

Moving on....

If DNB were to be moved, you'd need to weigh up some options. One such option would be to forget about moving and make a decision to invest more in pay and conditions. I'd guess that to raise pay and entitlements by 20% across the board would cost around $40M a year. Compare that to approx $650M (at a guess) to create a new naval base somewhere. The Clifford Bay proposal was estimated to be around $450M without much in the way of facilities. Add barracks, messes, ranges, medical centres, engineering shops, etc and I doubt you'd get much change. If it was going to be funded from current baselines it would mean that the new base would suck up every cent of property investment for half a decade, while the rest of the estate doesn't get any work done on it. Now obviously those figures can be massaged a bit, but I suggest that if you start looking at what a new base facility would cost to be established it's incredibly unlikely to ever happen.
I agree that it is an expensive undertaking however DNB exists in an active volcanic field with one vent very close by. I am using the term active because dormant implies no activity over a considerable period of time and I am used to dealing in long time periods where 500 years is miniscule. There is also the phenomena of sea level rise that has to be taken into account and the latest report suggests ~ < 0.5m but that there will be an increase in what were once seen as 100 year weather events. These storms will be more energetic and the suggestion is of annual occurrence. Whilst 0.5m of MSL doesn't sound much, it does have quite serious impacts upon coastlines through higher levels of wave energy impacting upon the coast. That's just two of the natural hazards covered, but the two that will have the most damaging impact upon DNB. Then there are earthquakes and tsunami which we don't know know a lot about of their long term history in NZ.

That's some of the reasons why I contend that eventually DNB will have to be moved from. The others are anthropogenic because they will be the immediate variables that will be assessed rather than the natural hazards risk factors.
 

chis73

Active Member
If you're genuinely interested in how the approach has changed over the years, I'd suggest going down to National Archives and grabbing some of the old staff officer papers for capability requirements from the 70s, 80s and early 90s and compare them to the level of analysis shown in open source investment decisions today. The difference is chalk and cheese, and so has been the response from central agencies.
ZA, I'd love it if you could do a series of occasional posts on some of these 'abandoned' projects.

I'll kick off if you like, with this proposal from 1980 to re-engine HMNZS Taranaki (a Type 12 Rothesay then with about 20 years service) from steam to gas turbine for a fisheries patrol frigate.

http://www.jneweb.com/entityfiles/5/1452/jnepaperfilename/v26b1p09a.pdf

The proposed Tyne turbines were those used as cruise engines in Type 21 & 22 frigates, and Type 42 destroyers. Auxiliary steam systems would have been replaced with diesel generators. The project seems to have been pretty seriously considered.

The HMS Exmouth referred to was an old Type 14 frigate used for experimental testing of gas turbine propulsion (a RR Olympus iirc).
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Looks quite interesting and not a silly idea. It appears to have quite a bit of potential especially because it appears to have the capability to replace Tui, Resolution and Manawanui. I have added Tui because of the science and research component that Tui used to undertake. If it is ice strengthed even better.

Whether or not it should undertake Antarctic fisheries surveillance and enforcement is something that needs to be discussed. My own view is that this role could be a supplementary role rather than a core role. IMHO it would be, in the long term, a better option to have ice strengthened OPVs because that just gives you greater flexibility. As time goes by we will need to be able to project greater maritime power in and around the Antarctic waters as resources become scarce elsewhere.
The Skipsteknisk’s ST-344 noted above for example is one of these Scando built ships (OSV/ORV type) that are ice strengthen to PC7 standard. The RSS Discovery which is a ST-344 is 1D ice capable.

In my view they are designed as more fit for purpose in the Southern Ocean environment than OPV's.

The OSV type vessels are obviously not as fast as an OPV but have huge range and more and more of the kind of role in the southern ocean that such a ship will be used for is about monitoring and building evidence for effective legal prosecution.

The Southern Ocean patrolling would be a complementary tasking set compared to its primary role. Another primary role (post Rena) is environmental protection. The OSV type vessels are an excellent platform to do this. Such a vessel would also be more ideal for conducting MAOT tasks such as sub-antarctic island resupply.

The rationale is sound for a small navy like ours in using a larger vessel modularised and as a platform to conduct important but not continually required roles in addition to its primary LWSV role.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Agreed Mr C, probably time to change tack.

I'm curious as to the apparent RNZN interest in an oceanographic vessel (oceanographic not being the same thing as hydrographic), considering:
a) most oceanographic work can be undertaken by NIWA's Tangaroa,
b) RNZN has no submarines, nor are NZ's current ASW surface & air force assets very well equipped. We used to do oceanographic research (eg. with Tui) when ASW was a stronger focus.
c) Diving isn't a deep-sea activity either.

Is there any military requirement now-days? The only thing I can think of is that they want a vessel large enough to have good seakeeping while voyaging into the Pacific. It would probably have to carry a shallow-draught launch to undertake real hydrographic work. Autonomous underwater drones have had a few hiccups (eg. LCS programme) lately - are they really ready for prime-time?
Oceanography covers a multitude of sins and any navy worth it's salt takes a very close interest in it. From a naval point of view oceanographic studies and research would include currents at sea, water temperature, salinity, density profiles etc. , across various oceans. This data is built up over time forming a database which is continually updated. This data is highly important because water temperature, density and salinity have a direct effect upon the speed of sound through water. Changes in any change the velocity of sound in water. Hence the effectiveness of interpretation of sonar data is dependant upon knowing the parameters of those three variables.
 

Zero Alpha

New Member
I agree that it is an expensive undertaking however DNB exists in an active volcanic field with one vent very close by. I am using the term active because dormant implies no activity over a considerable period of time and I am used to dealing in long time periods where 500 years is miniscule. There is also the phenomena of sea level rise that has to be taken into account and the latest report suggests ~ < 0.5m but that there will be an increase in what were once seen as 100 year weather events. These storms will be more energetic and the suggestion is of annual occurrence. Whilst 0.5m of MSL doesn't sound much, it does have quite serious impacts upon coastlines through higher levels of wave energy impacting upon the coast. That's just two of the natural hazards covered, but the two that will have the most damaging impact upon DNB. Then there are earthquakes and tsunami which we don't know know a lot about of their long term history in NZ.
Treasury would tell you to wait until it's flattened to move it and the economic case will improve :el

CBA asside, the simple question is probably 'If there was a spare $500M floating around, would moving DNB be in the NZDF's top ten priorities to spend it?'
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
CBA asside, the simple question is probably 'If there was a spare $500M floating around, would moving DNB be in the NZDF's top ten priorities to spend it?'
That $500m floating around would be better off in a floating Canterbury replacement.

The DNB I think we can all agree will not be moving during the time of the current DWP projection out to 2035.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
That $500m floating around would be better off in a floating Canterbury replacement.

The DNB I think we can all agree will not be moving during the time of the current DWP projection out to 2035.
Given current financial constraints I totally agree. But out of interest how much would DNB be worth if it was sold as a contribution to a move? I know it is not as simple as that and even the sale process can drag on for years due to conflicting interests, but the value would be interesting.
 
Given current financial constraints I totally agree. But out of interest how much would DNB be worth if it was sold as a contribution to a move? I know it is not as simple as that and even the sale process can drag on for years due to conflicting interests, but the value would be interesting.
Also who ends up being the recipient of those funds? Would it simpy be Navy or Defence? I think a move would be wise move though. Where it is limits the navy in alot of ways
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Given current financial constraints I totally agree. But out of interest how much would DNB be worth if it was sold as a contribution to a move? I know it is not as simple as that and even the sale process can drag on for years due to conflicting interests, but the value would be interesting.
If is it contaminated as Lucas suspects than not as much as one would like. A sizable chunk of waterfront property for development purposes would be worth $17.5m ha going by a value the Ngati Whatua owners state regarding the former Navy blocks sold off in a treaty deal in 2012. But that is residential uncontaminated land.

Anyway the topic is pretty much off the agenda now.
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Also who ends up being the recipient of those funds? Would it simpy be Navy or Defence? I think a move would be wise move though. Where it is limits the navy in alot of ways
All proceeds from the sale would go back to the Consolidated Fund unless cabinet directed otherwise.

chis73 pointed out the Taranaki conversion plans. National Archives in Auckland have some documentation on the whole process, that is interesting reading. One thing that does interest me is the speed / time profiles referred to in the in link chris73 provided regarding NZ Operations in the Pacific. The US Navy ones I have suggest that 98% of the time of a FFG was at 21 knots or less. The USCG replacement Ocean Patrol Cutter dropped their specifications down to 22 knots to save money, but noted that there would be comprises arising from reducing the speed below 25kts.

The Skipsteknisk’s ST-344 seems to fit a lot of the requirements NZ needs (generally) and with the increased length would be better suited to operations down south.
 
Top