Royal New Zealand Air Force

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
A B737 purchase for training has merit of sorts, but even a stock standard B737 is a plane load of $dosh$ so unless an operational role is also found (ie: B757 replacement) then there's no way it would even be considered. Only the larger, better resourced air forces get the luxury of such outlay for training types. I'm sure the RNZAF will get to 'purchase' time in someone elses. Malaysia uses (buys?) time in the RNZAF's AW109 sim.

...and I personally don't believe a B737 is a suitable B757 replacement.
The cost of a new B737 would be in the neighbourhood of USD$ 80 - 100 mil. depending on which model was purchased from the 700/800/900-series, if the B737 was from the MAX series, the prices for those start at USD$90 mil. and likely run up to ~USD$124 mil.

Given the cost, I would much rather see the NZDF spend USD$80+ mil. on getting a P-8 simulator and additional MEPT aircraft like the KA350's, or extra FAMC aircraft which can also be used for some MEPT and SAR work. In fact, there are a large number of other choices I would make before committing that much coin on the capabilities a B737 would provide.

As for it's suitability as a B757 replacement IMO it is kind-of-sort-of yes, kind-of-sort-of no, and a whole lot of meh. From my POV though, while the B757 is an overall more capable aircraft than the B727-100's they replaced, they are not particularly good aircraft for strategic airlift. The basic B757 aircraft was intended for short/medium haul routes with either passengers or cargo, depending on the aircraft configuration.

What I would like to see the NZG do, is announce what capabilities they feel are required in a strategic airlifter and rank those capabilities in order of importance, and then if there are 'other' capabilities which would be "nice to have but not required" list those in order for importance or influence. Right now the B757-200M's are sort of VIP, sort of cargo, sort of medevac, and sort of personnel transports, all without being particularly good any of those roles. There are an entire array of larger and smaller aircraft which can fulfill various niche roles and would likely do so much better than the current selection.

While the C-130H Hercules replacement needs to be sorted, the B757 replacement needs some serious thought as well, since the RNZAF B757's were purchased from the 2nd hand airline market in 2003, about 18 months before the B757 line closed. I would need to do some digging (again, IIRC I mentioned somewhere earlier in the thread when the specific aircraft were built) but I seem to recall the aircraft NZ purchased were about a decade old at the time of purchase. Now the aircraft themselves might not have been accumulating flight hours so much since being brought into RNZAF service (the delays as a result of changes to the aircraft certainly helped in this regard) but the B757 aircraft is not getting more efficient as time passes, nor are parts getting more available as time passes. Some time soon, a decision will need to be made regarding the strategic airlift. I just hope it is not another decision to postpone making a decision, like was done with the C-130H LEP back in 2003 in place of exercising options available to the RNZAF to join the RAAF C-130J purchase...
 

htbrst

Active Member
Two simulators to train and sustain crews for up to 19 aircraft from two countries? I don't think so.
What percentage of simulator time can a commercial 737 simulator provide vs one customised to the P-8? There must be a few of those around at good rates even in NZ.

If they can tick off a large percentage, I can see why they may hold off getting their own even if its to get the aircraft introduced into service first - simulator tech can evolve pretty fast and they could wait until they have the focus on sorting one out
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
What percentage of simulator time can a commercial 737 simulator provide vs one customised to the P-8? There must be a few of those around at good rates even in NZ.

If they can tick off a large percentage, I can see why they may hold off getting their own even if its to get the aircraft introduced into service first - simulator tech can evolve pretty fast and they could wait until they have the focus on sorting one out
The training / sims focus is not the pilots at the front flying the aircraft but the guys and gals in the back operating the actual capability.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Right now the B757-200M's are sort of VIP, sort of cargo, sort of medevac, and sort of personnel transports, all without being particularly good any of those roles.
Sort of good at personnel transport but not particularly?? How is an airliner not particularly good at personnel transport? It's pretty much what it is designed for for pretty much every airline that uses one so I find it strange that ours would be any worse at doing the job, because it transports military pers as opposed to civilian pers?

From experience I can tell you the 757s and their predeccessors do a pretty good job at transporting passengers and all the other roles, VIP, medevac, cargo are just bonuses and feathers in the cap of multiroleness if and when needed. I'm sure civilian airliners would love to be able to do this they just have no need to as part of their daily activities and therefore no requirement for the extra outlay.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Sort of good at personnel transport but not particularly?? How is an airliner not particularly good at personnel transport? It's pretty much what it is designed for for pretty much every airline that uses one so I find it strange that ours would be any worse at doing the job, because it transports military pers as opposed to civilian pers?

From experience I can tell you the 757s and their predeccessors do a pretty good job at transporting passengers and all the other roles, VIP, medevac, cargo are just bonuses and feathers in the cap of multiroleness if and when needed. I'm sure civilian airliners would love to be able to do this they just have no need to as part of their daily activities and therefore no requirement for the extra outlay.
Keep in mind that these are now strategic airlifters operating in the NZ context. Given where NZ is relative to other nations, an airliner designed for short/medium-range routes is going to have trouble providing strategic airlift over long distances. Per the RNZAF site, the B757-200's in service have a range of 7,400 km, which would be enough to fly from Auckland to Honolulu, with only 320 km to spare. In order for the RNZAF strategic airlifter to reach destinations in Asia, the aircraft would need to land and refuel in Australia, or perhaps PNG or eastern Indonesia.

In terms of the ability for an aircraft to move a number of people over long distances, there are other, larger airliners which can move more people at once, and over non-stop long-ranged routes. By the same token for VIP or even priority medevac cases, there are smaller aircraft like the G550 or Global 6000 which have 50% or greater range than the 4,000 n miles of the B757-200.

If the strategic lift requirement the RNZAF had was just for personnel movements between NZ and Oz, then the B757-200 would be adequate, though I suspect the NZDF could charter the personnel airlift from Air NZ at a lower cost per passenger as long as the starting and endpoints, as well as the route taken were all safe from air threats.

As a side note, I had sat down about five years ago and did some estimates and determined, roughly, that the cost to fly a RNZAF B757-200 full of passengers from Auckland to San Francisco worked out to the cost of flying everyone business class which was ~$5k per person at the time, when an economy class ticket was between $1,500 and $2,500.

So yes, I would say that the RNZAF B757-200 in the personnel movement role is sort of good at that role for NZ, but not particularly.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Keep in mind that these are now strategic airlifters operating in the NZ context. Given where NZ is relative to other nations, an airliner designed for short/medium-range routes is going to have trouble providing strategic airlift over long distances. Per the RNZAF site, the B757-200's in service have a range of 7,400 km, which would be enough to fly from Auckland to Honolulu, with only 320 km to spare. In order for the RNZAF strategic airlifter to reach destinations in Asia, the aircraft would need to land and refuel in Australia, or perhaps PNG or eastern Indonesia.

In terms of the ability for an aircraft to move a number of people over long distances, there are other, larger airliners which can move more people at once, and over non-stop long-ranged routes. By the same token for VIP or even priority medevac cases, there are smaller aircraft like the G550 or Global 6000 which have 50% or greater range than the 4,000 n miles of the B757-200.

If the strategic lift requirement the RNZAF had was just for personnel movements between NZ and Oz, then the B757-200 would be adequate, though I suspect the NZDF could charter the personnel airlift from Air NZ at a lower cost per passenger as long as the starting and endpoints, as well as the route taken were all safe from air threats.

As a side note, I had sat down about five years ago and did some estimates and determined, roughly, that the cost to fly a RNZAF B757-200 full of passengers from Auckland to San Francisco worked out to the cost of flying everyone business class which was ~$5k per person at the time, when an economy class ticket was between $1,500 and $2,500.

So yes, I would say that the RNZAF B757-200 in the personnel movement role is sort of good at that role for NZ, but not particularly.
So how far does the RNZAF need to fly in one go and why? So we need to refuel, don't all aircraft eventually, no big deal unless we are in a hurry (can't see why) and even then if that was the case then could use one of those cheaper non-stop civilian flights you quote but either way still faster, comfier and twice the range of our other transport AC.

Yes we could charter someone elses airliner, just as easy as we can charter someone elses cargo plane or even someone elses cargo ship but the issue is exactly that, it's someone elses and therefore we are reliant on someone elses terms, conditions and timings to certain degrees, not overly ideal especially when the ship hits the fan. History has proven this reliance has not always been in our best interests, viable or even as financially beneficial as is made out in the overall scheme of things and having flown both mil and civ numerous times can attest to both pros and cons of each such as timelines, availability, flexibility, destination, opsec and changing situations to name but a few.

Yes we could get bigger aircraft to fly longer distances but then comes even bigger costs and for what, one less stop for fuel? Also the bigger we go the less runways we can use, especially pertinent in our pacific AO (remember not everything we do is at maximum distance from NZ) as even the 757 has restrictions as evidenced by the PM and delegates use of C130 on a recent trip which would have otherwise used the boeing. The 757 is able to move a coy sized group, same as our sealift ship for good reason as this is our most likely functional deployable group to be based around.

Even on commercial flights we generally stop in either Singapore, Hawaii or another Loc and sometimes even over night for connecting flights if not refuel anyway so no different. Airlines achieve those efficiencies in costings by flying set routes at set times ultimately with set pax numbers IOT acheive maximum profit and sad one if they don't suit our requirements, take it or leave it. The reason our boeings cost more p/fh is that we do not acheive this regularity and is more erratic in nature due to the varience of work. It could be the same for us as well if we ever decided to fly boeings full of service pers to say San Fran on a weekly basis but alas going on a planned holiday with a commercial airline vs a short notice deployment via your own assets involves a differing approach to planning and logistics, a price you pay for coveineance with any company. What exactly does a one way charter of that spare Air NZ plane into an Apod of NZDFs choosing C/W a multitude of DAC at short notice cost these days anyway?

It's no secret the boeings cost more (in fact same could be said for the majority of our AC in their designated roles dependant) then say a civilian counterpart but then their roles are not quite the same are they and we have learnt this the hard way in some instances of trying "civilianisation" IOT "save" with some disastrous results as savings are sometimes more than just financial when it comes to anything military just that financial seems the easiest to achieve.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
For VIP operations, several long range business jets seems like a reasonable alternative assuming the PM/ cabinet minister of the day can limit the number of "delegates" required for assistance (or needing an exotic trip) along with some commercial charter.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
When the P8 is announced as has been intimated what is the chances that the Kawasaki C2 could be in line to replace the Hercules?

Rob C I have failed to understand what you have been saying about Hercules for Hercules replacement. I always interpreted the replacement of the B757 as the strategic carrier with an aircraft such as C17, C2 or A400. But now I see that the C2 is the right decision for the tactical replacement but the RNZAF will still need something to support SAR and smaller load transport. As unlikely as I think a two type purchase is, a mix of C2 and C130J SOF would be the ideal pairing.

The infrastructure is in place to support the J as it is a known commodity. With their interest to sell their military technology I am sure a few slots could be provided to NZ for the supply of three C2 ahead of domestic purchase.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Rob C I have failed to understand what you have been saying about Hercules for Hercules replacement.
If you think I have a bias against the C130J you would be right, I first worked on the C130H some 50 years ago and have a great admiration of the type as I also have of the C47 which I worked on even earlier, but like the C47 I think that it's time is passing and as the other competing designs all outperform the C130J I would I would like to see us move on to a newer more capable aircraft. I do recognise that RM is a fan of the C 130J and it is still likely that we may get them, but I simply don't see them as allowing us to move forward for the next 30 to 50 years which could be the time we have them. To me they simply mean that we don't progress significantly as we did when we got the H's. For those not born then, the first 3 we got replaced the Hastings and the second 2 replaced the DC6's we had, this was a huge step forward in both capability and reliability ( The Hastings were referred to as the fastest 3 engine transports around and we were not joking, the DC6's were not much better. ) and I would like us to have a another step forward in capability again.
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
Honestly I do not know where this speculation that no OFT's, WTT's and AeDTEs will be bought.
CAE may not be listed directly but the Canadian Commercial Corporation, a Canadian Govt owned enterprise set up to organise Canadian made military equipment to foreign governments (amongst other things) is part of DSCA response for a NZ FMS request. One of the numerous follow on contracts that a complex and long term buy such as the P-8A has.
Lack of a simulator was part of some gossip I heard in Wellington last week. As I noted in my post,,this isn't exactly a reliable source of anything. With a little luck we will know far more by COB Monday.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
If you think I have a bias against the C130J you would be right, I first worked on the C130H some 50 years ago and have a great admiration of the type as I also have of the C47 which I worked on even earlier, but like the C47 I think that it's time is passing and as the other competing designs all outperform the C130J I would I would like to see us move on to a newer more capable aircraft. I do recognise that RM is a fan of the C 130J and it is still likely that we may get them, but I simply don't see them as allowing us to move forward for the next 30 to 50 years which could be the time we have them. To me they simply mean that we don't progress significantly as we did when we got the H's. For those not born then, the first 3 we got replaced the Hastings and the second 2 replaced the DC6's we had, this was a huge step forward in both capability and reliability ( The Hastings were referred to as the fastest 3 engine transports around and we were not joking, the DC6's were not much better. ) and I would like us to have a another step forward in capability again.
Exactly, I am in the same boat so to speak, whilst I have great respect and admiration for the hercules to me the adage of 'the best replacement for a hercules is another hercules' may be all well and good but times and requirements have definately changed and as such so do we need to change to keep pace and in some instances get ahead.

This is why I have been using the huey as an example as you could easily apply the same logic ie 'the best replacement for a huey is another huey' after the similar years of stirling service they provided us with however we know this to in fact not be entirely correct, not for us anyway.

In saying that I can also see the J model sneaking in and not for it's great leaps and bounds but purely because all the other options have some degree of underlying issues and the mighty hercules is light years ahead in terms of the safest bet, something definately not lost on govt and while I will not be dissapointed, without a cover option at least, I will also not be entirely happy as like you say we will have them for the next 30-50 years perhaps even 60 if the H is anything to go by, a very long time to have chosen wrong.
 
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MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Exactly, I am in the same boat so to speak, whilst I have great respect and admiration for the hercules to me the adage of 'the best replacement for a hercules is another hercules' may be all well and good but times and requirements have definately changed and as such so do we need to change to keep pace and in some instances get ahead.

This is why I have been using the huey as an example as you could easily apply the same logic ie 'the best replacement for a huey is another huey' after the similar years of stirling service they provided us with however we know this to in fact not be entirely correct, not for us anyway.

In saying that I can also see the J model sneaking in and not for it's great leaps and bounds but purely because all the other options have some degree of underlying issues and the mighty hercules is light years ahead in terms of the safest bet, something definately not lost on govt and while I will not be dissapointed, without a cover option at least, I will also not be entirely happy as like you say we will have them for the next 30-50 years perhaps even 60 if the H is anything to go by, a very long time to have chosen wrong.
I pretty much think that everybody recognises how great the C-130J is and if selected I will be comfortable with it. It does what it says on the tin. However as we know their are some performance limitations. If only we had the same confidence in the reliability of the aircraft and vendor performance with respect to the A400M. That is the bit where Airbus will really have to step up and prove itself in the months ahead.

One huge step if the right direction for them is that recently the RAF has completed its first Operation COLDSTARE maritime reconnaissance mission using the A400M into the deep South Atlantic.

The other step forward which also will be of interest to the RNZAF is that last year HADR ops responding to Hurricane Irma in the Caribbean saw the A400M was airlifting three times as much as a C-130 into a tight, small strips without taking any military risk in its performance. Whereas the C-130 was taking in five tonnes at a time, the A400 was taking in 15 tonnes at a faster tempo reducing utilisation hours and more of the Aid to those required faster.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
I pretty much think that everybody recognises how great the C-130J is and if selected I will be comfortable with it. It does what it says on the tin. However as we know their are some performance limitations. If only we had the same confidence in the reliability of the aircraft and vendor performance with respect to the A400M. That is the bit where Airbus will really have to step up and prove itself in the months ahead.

One huge step if the right direction for them is that recently the RAF has completed its first Operation COLDSTARE maritime reconnaissance mission using the A400M into the deep South Atlantic.
Yes agreed, the A400 is very good in theory and the C130 is very good in reality, the difference between taken and proven I guess. A400 is coming along just hopefully it comes along quicker (and with no more hiccups) for our guys to feel comfortable enough with.

I wonder if we have anyone on longlook or even attached long term within the brits Atlas program at least for first hand observation and eval?
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
So how far does the RNZAF need to fly in one go and why? So we need to refuel, don't all aircraft eventually, no big deal unless we are in a hurry (can't see why) and even then if that was the case then could use one of those cheaper non-stop civilian flights you quote but either way still faster, comfier and twice the range of our other transport AC.

Yes we could charter someone elses airliner, just as easy as we can charter someone elses cargo plane or even someone elses cargo ship but the issue is exactly that, it's someone elses and therefore we are reliant on someone elses terms, conditions and timings to certain degrees, not overly ideal especially when the ship hits the fan. History has proven this reliance has not always been in our best interests, viable or even as financially beneficial as is made out in the overall scheme of things and having flown both mil and civ numerous times can attest to both pros and cons of each such as timelines, availability, flexibility, destination, opsec and changing situations to name but a few.

Yes we could get bigger aircraft to fly longer distances but then comes even bigger costs and for what, one less stop for fuel? Also the bigger we go the less runways we can use, especially pertinent in our pacific AO (remember not everything we do is at maximum distance from NZ) as even the 757 has restrictions as evidenced by the PM and delegates use of C130 on a recent trip which would have otherwise used the boeing. The 757 is able to move a coy sized group, same as our sealift ship for good reason as this is our most likely functional deployable group to be based around.

Even on commercial flights we generally stop in either Singapore, Hawaii or another Loc and sometimes even over night for connecting flights if not refuel anyway so no different. Airlines achieve those efficiencies in costings by flying set routes at set times ultimately with set pax numbers IOT acheive maximum profit and sad one if they don't suit our requirements, take it or leave it. The reason our boeings cost more p/fh is that we do not acheive this regularity and is more erratic in nature due to the varience of work. It could be the same for us as well if we ever decided to fly boeings full of service pers to say San Fran on a weekly basis but alas going on a planned holiday with a commercial airline vs a short notice deployment via your own assets involves a differing approach to planning and logistics, a price you pay for coveineance with any company. What exactly does a one way charter of that spare Air NZ plane into an Apod of NZDFs choosing C/W a multitude of DAC at short notice cost these days anyway?

It's no secret the boeings cost more (in fact same could be said for the majority of our AC in their designated roles dependant) then say a civilian counterpart but then their roles are not quite the same are they and we have learnt this the hard way in some instances of trying "civilianisation" IOT "save" with some disastrous results as savings are sometimes more than just financial when it comes to anything military just that financial seems the easiest to achieve.
From my perspective, the B757-200 is the wrong-sized aircraft to provide a strategic airlift capability to the RNZAF. Depending on what requirements are considered of primary importance, I believe either a larger or smaller aircraft is really what is required.

To move personnel/gov't officials between NZ and an overseas conference (not necessarily in a VIP configuration) where the number of NZ personnel/officials is likely 20 or less, using a 200+ passenger aircraft is overkill and very inefficient, especially if it needs to make more refueling stops than longer-ranged aircraft would require.

In terms of personnel moved that are not pre-planned and would require the movement of a significant number of people over a long distance, are the B757-200M's in RNZAF service really fit for purpose? I am specifically thinking of the possible desire or need to evacuate Kiwis or other foreign nationals from an area following a crisis like was contemplated after one of the recent Thai coups, or a natural disaster like 2004 tsunami. In both of these situations, the ~240 passenger seats would likely be insufficient, and again the need for additional refueling stops would delay the overall response.

With respect to the aircraft size being appropriate for the S. Pacific region, I have looked into a number of the airports on the various island nations and it seems that most of the airports which can handle civilian jetliners can handle those up to and past the A330 in size, Tahiti for instance can handle A380's. Of the airports which are unable to handle such large aircraft, they seem to be similarly unable to handle B757 or B737-sized aircraft for the most part as well. And of course if the airport has been damaged as the result of a natural disaster, then airlift based around civilian airliners would be inappropriate until repaired anyway.

In terms of range for strategic lift, at least for passengers, I would consider a non-stop flight between Singapore/Malaysia and New Zealand, or between New Zealand and Hawaii (with a safe fuel margin, 320 km/30 minutes fuel reserve is insufficient IMO for the distance traveled) or something similar, given that the RNZAF lacks an in-flight refueling capability. Forcing an aircraft to "island-hop" across the Pacific due to safety concerns imposed range limits is inefficient in terms of both time and operating costs.

Lastly, consider why Boeing stopped production of the B757 and has not introduced or started planning for a comparable replacement. It has been my understanding that it was due to airline aircraft purchases trending towards either smaller aircraft like the B737 and A320 family, or larger aircraft like the B767, B777, or A330, A340 or A350 families, depending on the routes and passenger capacities desired. Basically the B757 had basically become either too much aircraft, or not quite enough. At this point, the airliner which seems closest in terms of range and performance to that of a B757-200 would be an Airbus A321neo, which has about the same range and single seating type passenger capacity, but the aircraft is itself smaller, being 3 m short in overall length, a wingspan 2 m shorter, a height 2 m lower and perhaps most importantly MTOW and OEW weights which are ~18 tonnes and ~7 tonnes less respectively.

The trend in airliner development does seem to be towards either high capacity, long-haul intercontinental airliners, or lower capacity, short/medium-haul transcontinental airliners, and the B757 seems to have been a bit between the two.
 

Xthenaki

Active Member
Exactly, I am in the same boat so to speak, whilst I have great respect and admiration for the hercules to me the adage of 'the best replacement for a hercules is another hercules' may be all well and good but times and requirements have definately changed and as such so do we need to change to keep pace and in some instances get ahead.

This is why I have been using the huey as an example as you could easily apply the same logic ie 'the best replacement for a huey is another huey' after the similar years of stirling service they provided us with however we know this to in fact not be entirely correct, not for us anyway.

In saying that I can also see the J model sneaking in and not for it's great leaps and bounds but purely because all the other options have some degree of underlying issues and the mighty hercules is light years ahead in terms of the safest bet, something definately not lost on govt and while I will not be dissapointed, without a cover option at least, I will also not be entirely happy as like you say we will have them for the next 30-50 years perhaps even 60 if the H is anything to go by, a very long time to have chosen wrong.
At the moment we urgently need a cover option and 2 - 3 Hercules J or variant (for later use) would be ideal. The question is - availability. How soon can we get a cover option? The Hercules J or variant option could be extended but would prefer new technology for the main replacement - C2 . The RAF sent an A400m to the Falkland Islands recently. Now the A400 has been in operation for some time and although slow more are becoming available - have the problems with this plane been addressed and solved.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
From my perspective, the B757-200 is the wrong-sized aircraft to provide a strategic airlift capability to the RNZAF. Depending on what requirements are considered of primary importance, I believe either a larger or smaller aircraft is really what is required.

To move personnel/gov't officials between NZ and an overseas conference (not necessarily in a VIP configuration) where the number of NZ personnel/officials is likely 20 or less, using a 200+ passenger aircraft is overkill and very inefficient, especially if it needs to make more refueling stops than longer-ranged aircraft would require.

In terms of personnel moved that are not pre-planned and would require the movement of a significant number of people over a long distance, are the B757-200M's in RNZAF service really fit for purpose? I am specifically thinking of the possible desire or need to evacuate Kiwis or other foreign nationals from an area following a crisis like was contemplated after one of the recent Thai coups, or a natural disaster like 2004 tsunami. In both of these situations, the ~240 passenger seats would likely be insufficient, and again the need for additional refueling stops would delay the overall response.

With respect to the aircraft size being appropriate for the S. Pacific region, I have looked into a number of the airports on the various island nations and it seems that most of the airports which can handle civilian jetliners can handle those up to and past the A330 in size, Tahiti for instance can handle A380's. Of the airports which are unable to handle such large aircraft, they seem to be similarly unable to handle B757 or B737-sized aircraft for the most part as well. And of course if the airport has been damaged as the result of a natural disaster, then airlift based around civilian airliners would be inappropriate until repaired anyway.

In terms of range for strategic lift, at least for passengers, I would consider a non-stop flight between Singapore/Malaysia and New Zealand, or between New Zealand and Hawaii (with a safe fuel margin, 320 km/30 minutes fuel reserve is insufficient IMO for the distance traveled) or something similar, given that the RNZAF lacks an in-flight refueling capability. Forcing an aircraft to "island-hop" across the Pacific due to safety concerns imposed range limits is inefficient in terms of both time and operating costs.

Lastly, consider why Boeing stopped production of the B757 and has not introduced or started planning for a comparable replacement. It has been my understanding that it was due to airline aircraft purchases trending towards either smaller aircraft like the B737 and A320 family, or larger aircraft like the B767, B777, or A330, A340 or A350 families, depending on the routes and passenger capacities desired. Basically the B757 had basically become either too much aircraft, or not quite enough. At this point, the airliner which seems closest in terms of range and performance to that of a B757-200 would be an Airbus A321neo, which has about the same range and single seating type passenger capacity, but the aircraft is itself smaller, being 3 m short in overall length, a wingspan 2 m shorter, a height 2 m lower and perhaps most importantly MTOW and OEW weights which are ~18 tonnes and ~7 tonnes less respectively.

The trend in airliner development does seem to be towards either high capacity, long-haul intercontinental airliners, or lower capacity, short/medium-haul transcontinental airliners, and the B757 seems to have been a bit between the two.
I think the 757 was the happy medium in terms of type (for RNZAF) with considerations such as capacity, range and cost and no doubt compromises were made but TBH that is pretty much most projects within NZDF, pitfalls of a small force and a smaller budget.

I remember at least a couple of exs where we actually needed to use both the previous 727s to move the contingent C/W freight (albeit uplifting a few secret squirrels en route for shared lift) so they obviously re-looked at the capacity as opposed to say going for a 737 type which would have made some sense at the time with Air NZ having the type in some numbers. Range again was obviously improved on the 727 but comparitive with size, an ER option could possibly have been found but I take it by the way we went with second hand options then purchase cost also played at major part in the selection process otherwise we could have bought new build 757s or even second hand larger but more expensive 767/A330s for the same price.

So again I feel the 757 was the least best compromised selection that filled the niches of NZDF requirements considering we did not at the time go 737 or 767, both of which were common in NZ with Air NZ and others as I remember thinking at the time we ran the risk of having a comparitively orphan model in this part of the world, something we seem to take more into account these days at least.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yes agreed, the A400 is very good in theory and the C130 is very good in reality, the difference between taken and proven I guess. A400 is coming along just hopefully it comes along quicker (and with no more hiccups) for our guys to feel comfortable enough with.

I wonder if we have anyone on longlook or even attached long term within the brits Atlas program at least for first hand observation and eval?
The A400M was on specification the platform which could achieve all the essential and desirable capability sets from the FAMC RFI in both the strategic and tactical roles.

I would guess that the Air Attache in London is keeping his eyes and ears open and talking with his RAF colleagues and reporting back.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
From my perspective, the B757-200 is the wrong-sized aircraft to provide a strategic airlift capability to the RNZAF. Depending on what requirements are considered of primary importance, I believe either a larger or smaller aircraft is really what is required.

To move personnel/gov't officials between NZ and an overseas conference (not necessarily in a VIP configuration) where the number of NZ personnel/officials is likely 20 or less, using a 200+ passenger aircraft is overkill and very inefficient, especially if it needs to make more refueling stops than longer-ranged aircraft would require.
A B767 would have been better in hindsight.

A PM delegation is the most common usage in the VIP role in which officials from the DPM&C, MFAT staff including trade officials, invited industry guests from NZTE, members of the Press Gallery and DPS security. The other use is Veteran Affairs flights to overseas commemorations which are full pax capacity affairs with many missing out.

These trips are planned months ahead and refuelling stops are dovetailed into diplomatic activities where for example the PM will use those precious hours to meet with a fellow leader. For example a set down in the Pacific to get brief but important facetime with an Island leader for an hour or two.

Senior Officials and Govt staff off to conferences or smaller delegations with a Minister are booked by the Parliamentary Travel Office primarily on Air NZ. Where they sit on the plane is where they are at with the pecking order.
 
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