Royal New Zealand Air Force

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
They are just tools that can be used in a naval blockade. Why invade when you can blockade? Achieves the result of forcing a nation to adhere to your desires.
Not entirely just tools. It is also not about invasion. The question in retort is why blockade when EMS disruption is potentially easier and can be placed at any point in the conflict spectrum before during and after a naval blockade? Aggressive ISR and EMS disruption by an adversary can be a stand alone action in itself and a more likely and easier circumstance to arrange and conduct by an adversary rather than being a subset of a naval blockade.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The biggest threat to NZ sovereignty is a naval blockade, and such things are still in the book of naval strategies and tactics. The next threat is interruption to our SLOC by nefarious forces, either nation / state or non state actors. Generally speaking NZ pollies and the great hairy unwashed remain ignorant of that threat, which is classic sea blindness, especially for a maritime island nation.
IMO interruption of the SLOC is a greater threat, in part because it is so much easier to accomplish. OTOH though, what I consider an 'interruption' others might consider a blockade or part of a blockade.

While you are correct as to the current situation this can change far faster than we can rearm. We must also not forget the emergence of rogue organisations who do things that defy logic and they have away of quickly subjugating a population. Who is going to resist them if they know their whole family will be executed if they try.When we look back on past conflicts we see that a lot did not have a lot of logic involved and that the resisting population was a very small part of a percent of the population which took a significant period of time to build and often had to rely on extensive outside help to achieve significant results. As a worst case scenario we could be subjected to ethnic cleansing. the point being we don't know what the future will bring and my thoughts are that we should project sufficient deterrent to ensure that no rogue nation or organisation tries any half baked ideas in our direction. The simple truth is that we are ignorant as to the future and we tend to project our minds into the future on the basis of what is happening now and how that will play out. It is one of history's quirks that there are sudden changes in direction. Who would have foreseen the rapid rise of ISIS say 10 years prior to their advances, or say the Falklands war in say 1973 or for that mater most conflicts. No one did. Our strategic situation will change with time sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse and that is what we need to be prepared for. We just need to remember that just because we cannot see any possible way that we may be threatened does not mean that someone else cannot come up with something we did not think of. The limits of anyone particular person's mind is not the limits of someone else intent on usurping them in some way or other.
I agree that future threats will likely emerge faster than then NZDF can, or would be funded/permitted to re-arm sufficiently to meet.

At the same time though certain realities exist with NZ's defence situation, which very often seem to get ignored by both those advocating for significantly greater and lesser defence spends.

Those advocating for less defence spending tend look at how remote NZ is, rightfully conclude that an invasion and conquest as a practical is virtually impossible and decide to argue that the NZDF does not need to be as capable as it is because anything short of an invasion and conquest does not constitute a threat.

OTOH there are some among those advocating for greater funding and support for the NZDF who seem to only consider how little the NZDF can do against direct, existential threats to NZ proper and focus on building capabilities to combat these direct threats, all while ignoring the difficulties an aggressor would face if they attempted to exploit gaps in NZDF capability to carry out a direct attack.

Both sides always seem to focus so much just on threats within NZ home waters or NZ soil while ignoring the impact on NZ of threats and events further away. I am uncertain if this is because of 'sea blindness' as some have described it, or because the threats and events might not even be intended to impact NZ

What I have been advocating for is the NZDF to at least maintain, if not expand it's capabilities to cover a broad range of potential threat scenarios, particularly focusing on those threats which can be most easily realized and have a significant impact on Kiwi life.

In terms of the likelihood of a direct, existential threat to NZ, let us change some of the numbers around and re-examine it, shall we?

Instead of assuming that 1% of the NZ population would be willing to take up arms, how about we assume 0.1% instead. That would be ~4,200 per the 2013 census, which is actually about 500 less than the number of regular NZ Army personnel. Keeping the ratio of 7-10 troops per resistance or guerrilla fighter, an occupying army would need "only" 29k - 42k troops. Even with the size of the hypothetical army of occupation being a tenth of what it was before, just how many nations have an expeditionary force that large? How many nations have sufficient logistical assets to maintain an air and sea bridge large enough to support and sustain a force that large and that remote?

From the above numbers, we are looking at a force that is as large or larger than the entirety of the Australian Army. In fact, less than half of the world's nations maintain standing militaries (army, navy & air forces combined) with the total personnel numbering over 29k. The number of potential occupiers drops further when one considers that any such occupier would need to retain sufficient personnel in their home country to meet their self-defence needs. Assuming that 75% of a nation's military was needed to maintain self-defence, and that the occupation force only needed ~30k personnel, less than a quarter of the world's nations maintain large enough standing forces. Then these would-be occupiers need to have enough air and sea transports to maintain the flow of food, fuel, parts and replacement personnel. Of the nations with large enough militaries, Indonesia is the closest to NZ, at ~5,000 km, and the next closest would be Thailand, at just under 10,000 km away.

When examining the potential threats to an invasion of NZ, there are just not very many nations that have the resources to accomplish it. In point of fact, I suspect only a single nation could do this at present or in the short/medium term future. I suspect NZ has a greater chance of being impacted by a major earthquake of eruption before another invasion.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
The election is over. Isnt it time that there is movement on the Kingair replacement? Is there any news of RPAS? Is government rsady to issue tenders for the transport replacement? Hopefully something gets on the go soon.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
IMO interruption of the SLOC is a greater threat, in part because it is so much easier to accomplish. OTOH though, what I consider an 'interruption' others might consider a blockade or part of a blockade.



I agree that future threats will likely emerge faster than then NZDF can, or would be funded/permitted to re-arm sufficiently to meet.

At the same time though certain realities exist with NZ's defence situation, which very often seem to get ignored by both those advocating for significantly greater and lesser defence spends.

Those advocating for less defence spending tend look at how remote NZ is, rightfully conclude that an invasion and conquest as a practical is virtually impossible and decide to argue that the NZDF does not need to be as capable as it is because anything short of an invasion and conquest does not constitute a threat.

OTOH there are some among those advocating for greater funding and support for the NZDF who seem to only consider how little the NZDF can do against direct, existential threats to NZ proper and focus on building capabilities to combat these direct threats, all while ignoring the difficulties an aggressor would face if they attempted to exploit gaps in NZDF capability to carry out a direct attack.

Both sides always seem to focus so much just on threats within NZ home waters or NZ soil while ignoring the impact on NZ of threats and events further away. I am uncertain if this is because of 'sea blindness' as some have described it, or because the threats and events might not even be intended to impact NZ

What I have been advocating for is the NZDF to at least maintain, if not expand it's capabilities to cover a broad range of potential threat scenarios, particularly focusing on those threats which can be most easily realized and have a significant impact on Kiwi life.

In terms of the likelihood of a direct, existential threat to NZ, let us change some of the numbers around and re-examine it, shall we?

Instead of assuming that 1% of the NZ population would be willing to take up arms, how about we assume 0.1% instead. That would be ~4,200 per the 2013 census, which is actually about 500 less than the number of regular NZ Army personnel. Keeping the ratio of 7-10 troops per resistance or guerrilla fighter, an occupying army would need "only" 29k - 42k troops. Even with the size of the hypothetical army of occupation being a tenth of what it was before, just how many nations have an expeditionary force that large? How many nations have sufficient logistical assets to maintain an air and sea bridge large enough to support and sustain a force that large and that remote?

From the above numbers, we are looking at a force that is as large or larger than the entirety of the Australian Army. In fact, less than half of the world's nations maintain standing militaries (army, navy & air forces combined) with the total personnel numbering over 29k. The number of potential occupiers drops further when one considers that any such occupier would need to retain sufficient personnel in their home country to meet their self-defence needs. Assuming that 75% of a nation's military was needed to maintain self-defence, and that the occupation force only needed ~30k personnel, less than a quarter of the world's nations maintain large enough standing forces. Then these would-be occupiers need to have enough air and sea transports to maintain the flow of food, fuel, parts and replacement personnel. Of the nations with large enough militaries, Indonesia is the closest to NZ, at ~5,000 km, and the next closest would be Thailand, at just under 10,000 km away.

When examining the potential threats to an invasion of NZ, there are just not very many nations that have the resources to accomplish it. In point of fact, I suspect only a single nation could do this at present or in the short/medium term future. I suspect NZ has a greater chance of being impacted by a major earthquake of eruption before another invasion.
What you say is correct in conventional terms, but we must keep in mind that conflicts do not always follow our rules. Also keep in mind that in the greater South East Asian region we are a ethnic ,cultural, racial and religious minority and would be treated as such. If for instance the US was tied up else were say NATO versus Russia, then the door is very open. as I have said before at the current defence level we have anyone could simply fly in then use commercial shipping types to provide the heavy stuff, food and fuel could be sourced locally so it would not be a significant task to maintain such a group and the other point I made is it does not necessarily need to be a nation but could simply be an opportunistic, rogue group of the ISIS type who would basically live of the land and subjugate the population by extreme brutality. Due to our current low level of defence abilities there is no need for all the conventional assault equipment, basic civil transport will suffice. We need to stop thinking in only conventional terms or we could get badly burnt in the future.
An additional thought regarding local resistance, Logistically it would be extremely difficult as there is no handy Ho Chi Min trail or other supply options, so you would be at best left with an equipment level of bolt action rifles of various calibers each with a small handful of ammunition against modern auto weapons, a bit like the french resistance taking on the Germans in WW2 with muskets. The French resistance in WW2 did reach 100,000 after 4 years in june 1944, with significant help from G.B.including arms ,ammunition, explosive radio's, trained leadership and significant other support and backing which would not be available to us. There were at one stage almost as many informers as there were resistance.
 
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RegR

Well-Known Member
The election is over. Isnt it time that there is movement on the Kingair replacement? Is there any news of RPAS? Is government rsady to issue tenders for the transport replacement? Hopefully something gets on the go soon.
Who's to say the kingairs will even get replaced? They are leased aircraft managed by civilians for use by the air force. They could just re-new the lease and carry on as per usual and we would be none the wiser.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
What you say is correct in conventional terms, but we must keep in mind that conflicts do not always follow our rules. Also keep in mind that in the greater South East Asian region we are a ethnic ,cultural, racial and religious minority and would be treated as such. If for instance the US was tied up else were say NATO versus Russia, then the door is very open. as I have said before at the current defence level we have anyone could simply fly in then use commercial shipping types to provide the heavy stuff, food and fuel could be sourced locally so it would not be a significant task to maintain such a group and the other point I made is it does not necessarily need to be a nation but could simply be an opportunistic, rogue group of the ISIS type who would basically live of the land and subjugate the population by extreme brutality. Due to our current low level of defence abilities there is no need for all the conventional assault equipment, basic civil transport will suffice. We need to stop thinking in only conventional terms or we could get badly burnt in the future.
An additional thought regarding local resistance, Logistically it would be extremely difficult as there is no handy Ho Chi Min trail or other supply options, so you would be at best left with an equipment level of bolt action rifles of various calibers each with a small handful of ammunition against modern auto weapons, a bit like the french resistance taking on the Germans in WW2 with muskets. The French resistance in WW2 did reach 100,000 after 4 years in june 1944, with significant help from G.B.including arms ,ammunition, explosive radio's, trained leadership and significant other support and backing which would not be available to us. There were at one stage almost as many informers as there were resistance.
Don't you think existing protocols,security of commercial airlines and shipping,customs would be a major roadblock to any terrorist aggressor?Or intelligence agencies we are part of would surely give us a heads up,or intervene before they get close.



Any concentration of contraband weapons or masses of terrorists from nations flagged as high risk would surely have to stop off at a allied port along the way here? All such groups then coordinating such equipment and men to arrive simultaniously,I highly doubt.

I think the bigger threat is exploitation of our potential oil and gas reserves offshore, and of our fish stocks as the world's fish stocks are now depleting. And yes, natural disaster response,so more Opv than current planning, better armed and capable for longer deployments in rougher sea states, more Nh90, and Mpa. And a eventual Lpd replacement for Canterbury, like Singapore's endurance class.

For that matter, If we want a quick response why not simply buy more Texan T6 ,then arm them like the Iraqis and Us forces did? Surely an affordable,logistically easier start.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The election is over. Isnt it time that there is movement on the Kingair replacement? Is there any news of RPAS? Is government rsady to issue tenders for the transport replacement? Hopefully something gets on the go soon.
Who's to say the kingairs will even get replaced? They are leased aircraft managed by civilians for use by the air force. They could just re-new the lease and carry on as per usual and we would be none the wiser.
The ACTC RFT stated that the Kingairs would be leased for 7 years from 1st September 2017. What is actually happening is publicly unknown at the moment. I will ask the MOD for an update. From what the RFT said, the ACTC platform capability, post 7 year Kingair lease, will be part of the FAMC and FASC studies.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Don't you think existing protocols,security of commercial airlines and shipping,customs would be a major roadblock to any terrorist aggressor?Or intelligence agencies we are part of would surely give us a heads up,or intervene before they get close.



Any concentration of contraband weapons or masses of terrorists from nations flagged as high risk would surely have to stop off at a allied port along the way here? All such groups then coordinating such equipment and men to arrive simultaniously,I highly doubt.

I think the bigger threat is exploitation of our potential oil and gas reserves offshore, and of our fish stocks as the world's fish stocks are now depleting. And yes, natural disaster response,so more Opv than current planning, better armed and capable for longer deployments in rougher sea states, more Nh90, and Mpa. And a eventual Lpd replacement for Canterbury, like Singapore's endurance class.

For that matter, If we want a quick response why not simply buy more Texan T6 ,then arm them like the Iraqis and Us forces did? Surely an affordable,logistically easier start.
If the protocols proved an obstacle just arrive and if the situation was deteriorating they are not going to stop a determined rogue organisation or country. the sudden arrival of a rogue ship or aircraft is not going to be able to be countered quickly.
I would disagree with your bigger threats that you have laid out, they could very well be more likely, but would hardly threaten our freedom or sovereignty, which is the primary asset we have to lose. T6's would not be capable of dealing with an airliners full of armed men.
Indonesia has Isis cells in some of their islands and in the past could have been considered a rogue nation and it is not beyond a possibility may some time in the future be again, or some similar nation. the other point is that a significant number of Southeast Asian Nations are very corrupt to a level most NZers would not comprehend were almost all government officials are on the take and with the right amount of money you can get almost anything you want officially passed, I have been there multiple times and have seen it.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Just had the local Spitfire doing it's thing over town, passed within 200 metres of the house and then did several circuits and figure of eights before heading to Feilding. Armistice plus 1?
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
If the protocols proved an obstacle just arrive and if the situation was deteriorating they are not going to stop a determined rogue organisation or country. the sudden arrival of a rogue ship or aircraft is not going to be able to be countered quickly.
I would disagree with your bigger threats that you have laid out, they could very well be more likely, but would hardly threaten our freedom or sovereignty, which is the primary asset we have to lose. T6's would not be capable of dealing with an airliners full of armed men.
Indonesia has Isis cells in some of their islands and in the past could have been considered a rogue nation and it is not beyond a possibility may some time in the future be again, or some similar nation. the other point is that a significant number of Southeast Asian Nations are very corrupt to a level most NZers would not comprehend were almost all government officials are on the take and with the right amount of money you can get almost anything you want officially passed, I have been there multiple times and have seen it.
Yes, I visited Vietnam and Cambodia several years ago on holiday, got robbed at a stall And local tourist police could of cared less. A lot of knock off gear even in some of the malls.

So yes, corruption from what I experianced. And Buddhist religion lately prone to the same violence as Muslim extremists in myanmarr.So yeah, that's just another good reason for increased patrol vessels and Mpa.Possible acts of terror on a major source of income like fossil fuels, or ecological damage by result can't be discounted either.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Lately? Not heard of the decades of Tamil (Hindu)-Sinhalese (Buddhist) war in Sri Lanka?

Every religion has or has had violent extremists.
Totally right. the reality is that while most religions have a benign basis there are always those who will interpret the teachings in an extreme way and inter religious tensions can lead to extreme violence. this often happens because of the simple " I am right you are wrong type of thinking interpreted in an extreme way.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Lately? Not heard of the decades of Tamil (Hindu)-Sinhalese (Buddhist) war in Sri Lanka?

Every religion has or has had violent extremists.
Agreed. Christians included, historically. I'm really referencing instability that could lead to the toppling of govt, as I have mentioned in another thread.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
This thread is mean't to be about the RNZAF - what next mentioning the Spanish Inquisition?

Everyone please resist the temptation to wander off into tangents.

Cheers, MrC
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The ACTC RFT stated that the Kingairs would be leased for 7 years from 1st September 2017. What is actually happening is publicly unknown at the moment. I will ask the MOD for an update. From what the RFT said, the ACTC platform capability, post 7 year Kingair lease, will be part of the FAMC and FASC studies.
I've heard back from the MOD and they have said that they are still engaged in contract negotiations and because of such, they are unable to comment further.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Heard an interesting rumor today from an old ex airforce friend, swears it's from a good source, but they all do that don't they. The rumor is that the Turakina maori girls college in Marton has been brought for the Singapore air force as accommodation. The college was a girls boarding school for about 150 boarding pupils that was closed at the end of last year and is about 15 to 20 min from Ohakea.The buildings date from the early 1990's when they were built as replacements of the old buildings which were torn down due to earthquake risks, so are fairly new. If true it would be great, but one does have to be careful with rumors.
 

Naive

New Member
Here is an interesting opinion article by Gordon Campbell on NZ defence spending, with particular regard to a RNZAF fast jet capability.

I cannot post links so i have pasted in the whole article. The article can be found on the website warewolf.co.nz , it is titled: "Gordon Campbell on the new Pike River agency, and the air strike wing"

Into the Hornet’s Nest
Defence is one of those areas of government spending that involves (a) the spending of colossal amounts of taxpayer money and (b) Ministers making decisions with their eyes glued to the rear view mirror. According to the conservative tip sheet Transtasman ( Nov 8 edition) Defence Minister Ron Mark is looking at the feasibility of re-instating the air strike capacity of the Air Force, by buying the Royal Australian Air Force’s old F-18 Hornets, as the RAAF moves on with a planned upgrade to new F-35 fighters.
At yesterday’s post-Cabinet press conference, I asked PM Jacinda Ardern whether restoring the air strike wing was likely to be seen as a budgetary priority for her government. In reply, Ardern gave her usual response to queries about Defence spending – namely, that Labour will honour the spending commitments envisaged by the prior National government, but no more. Those commitments entail the replacement of our current frigates, Orions, Hercules etc, to the tune of some $20 billion over the next 20 years. Any additional elements – such as the air strike capability – would have to go to Cabinet, Ardern indicated, and be judged on their merits.
Fine. Yet according to Transtasman, Canada is also after those Hornets, and Ottawa will be advised by year’s end about whether its expression of interest will be embraced by the Australians. If there is a fiscal envelope in New Zealand for Defence of $20 billion over 20 years, it is still unclear how itemised that projected spend-up may be. Meaning: if Mark sought to front-end the process with a bid for the Hornets, could that create a fait accompli that short-changes the rest of the Defence shopping outlay that’s due a bit further down the track, during the early to mid 2020s?
In terms of job creation, the massive projected Defence spend is mainly going to benefit Aussie shipyards likely to be building our new frigates. Buying old fighter planes off the Aussies would be another bonus for them, and – arguably – could sweeten any relations with Canberra that may have been soured by the Manus refugees issue. At least that’s how Mark and his NZF boss – Foreign Minister Winston Peters – might argue this possible Hornets investment, unless told otherwise. As things stand though, any attempt to outbid the Canadians on the Hornets would displace other expensive priorities – the Hercules, the frigates, the Orions – that rank higher up the shopping list.
On any rational grounds, trying to restore New Zealand’s air strike wing makes no sense at all – either militarily, or in terms of value for taxpayer money. Besides the initial capital outlay for the Hornets, even Transtasman concedes that it would take nearly a decade of investment to rebuild the air strike wing “into an effective force.” Moreover, we’re operating in a security environment in the Pacific where not even Defence’s internal assessments can conjure up a realistic threat scenario. Here’s how the 2014 Defence Force Assessment painted the situation:
Para 66. New Zealand does not presently face a direct threat of physical invasion and occupation of New Zealand territory. The likelihood of such a threat to the Cook Islands, Niue, Tokelau and territory over which we have a sovereign claim, emerging before 2040 is judged to be very low, and would be preceded by significant change to the international security environment. New Zealand could therefore expect to have a reasonable amount of time to re-orientate its defence priorities should this be necessary. Although there is no direct threat to our territorial integrity, New Zealand faces a range of other threats from state and non-state actors, including cyber threats and terrorism.
Plainly, frigates and Hornets aren’t any use in copingwith cyber threats and terrorism. Meanwhile, as we spend billions to defend ourselves against phantoms, schools and hospitals are putting the lives and wellbeing of New Zealanders (young and old) in harm’s way, for wont of adequate funding.
 
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40 deg south

Well-Known Member
A former colleague who knows of my interest in defence issues kindly flicked me an extract from yesterday's post-Cabinet press conference with the PM

https://www.beehive.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2017-11 20%20November%202017.pdf

Allegedly, one of the Wellington gossip sheets (probably Transtasman) has floated a suggestion that Ron Mark is keen to put an offer in on the Australian F/A18s (presumably the Classics?) as they are retired.

Media:
Just a question on defence. Reportedly, Defence Minister Ron Mark has been looking at the feasibility of reinstituting the airstrike capacity for our armed forces. Is that likely to be—it’s early days yet, but is this likely to be a budgetary priority for your Government?

PM:
As I’ve said several times in the past when asked about defence, we are sticking
to within the parameters of the extensive work that was done forward - looking for defence planning, and that included their infrastructure. We’re not looking to move outside of those parameters.

Media:
[Inaudible] got discretion?

PM:
That includes the Budget. Everything will come —everything of significant decision of that scale of course will come before Cabinet, but, as I’ve indicated, we’re looking to stick within the context of that significant piece of defence planning.

Media:
So there’s no return to the Skyhawks and the fighter jets?

PM:
We’re sticking to that existing plan.
 
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