Royal New Zealand Air Force

R

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
ngatimozart said:
No because the paper platform Sea Herc is just that, a paper platform. Even though the RFI states:
Defence seeks information on the platforms, equipment and services that are available, or are likely to be available, within the next decade on surveillance capability.​
the NZG are adverse to risk and the FAMC states:
The project excludes:
Solutions that are unproven (without Type Certification), highly developmental and/or unsupported by a reliable evidence base.​
Therefore we presume that a similar line will be taken with the FASC.

The Sea Herc would be far too risky because of all the capabilities that would have to be integrated into the platform. The NZG would not be keen on having to pay such integration costs, and most definitely would not want to be the launch customer.
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There is also the matter of the leaked platform speed requirement which the C130 and any other prop proposals would not reach the Mach .82 required.
 
MrConservative

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Rob c said:
There is also the matter of the leaked platform speed requirement which the C130 and any other prop proposals would not reach the Mach .82 required.
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The .82 Mach figure was only used as contextual example by an Embraer sales manager in making a point during an interview with an Australian journalist with respect to the capabilities of the KC-390 which like C-2 and C-17 does not quite make that benchmark anyway. It is an impossible requirement especially in the context of cruise speed and carrying for example a 12000 kg payload on a trans-oceanic hop.

If there was such an essential requirement other than a desirable requirement for the strategic solution only the mid size commercial variants like the B767 could manage it. No tactical options could manage it nor could the P-1 or P-8 which also fall short on cruise speed if it was also a FASC requirement.
 
H

htbrst

Active Member
On a related note, the KC-390 is coming to visit on it's way home from the Paris airshow:

Following its attendance at the Paris air show, where the new type is due to be in the static line and also participate in the flying display, the aircraft will visit undisclosed additional European nations before heading for New Zealand. Wellington is in the process of selecting new transport and maritime patrol aircraft.
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https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/kc-390-tour-kicks-off-with-swedish-evaluation-438231/
 
4

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
htbrst said:
On a related note, the KC-390 is coming to visit on it's way home from the Paris airshow:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/kc-390-tour-kicks-off-with-swedish-evaluation-438231/
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That suggests Embraer still think they are in with a chance. I don't fancy their odds, but am very impressed at the way they have kept their programme on track - they certainly deserve to make some sales.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-embraer-kc-idUSKBN194278
Given Portugal is looking at 5 aircraft, the price they are offered should be a good indication of what the price to NZ would be.

An acquaintance in the advertising world recently mentioned a rumour that a Brazilian aircraft manufacturer was looking for a large wall near Molesworth St in Wellington to put up some kind of display or billboard. This is right next to Parliament and the NZDF HQ, so it isn't hard to guess what they will be advertising!

UPDATE
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLU1RTNz0CTZIljxOK6uyaw

The Embraer YouTube channel has lots of KC-390 footage for those interested.
 
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R

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
MrConservative said:
The .82 Mach figure was only used as contextual example by an Embraer sales manager in making a point during an interview with an Australian journalist with respect to the capabilities of the KC-390 which like C-2 and C-17 does not quite make that benchmark anyway. It is an impossible requirement especially in the context of cruise speed and carrying for example a 12000 kg payload on a trans-oceanic hop.

If there was such an essential requirement other than a desirable requirement for the strategic solution only the mid size commercial variants like the B767 could manage it. No tactical options could manage it nor could the P-1 or P-8 which also fall short on cruise speed if it was also a FASC requirement.
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The remark was in respect of the FASC and the suitability of a KC390 MPA version to cover these requirements and it was not stated whether this was cruise or burst speed. It was not aimed at the FAMC. I did see it reported else were but this may have been a copy.
Interestingly, while there is a request for a possible sale of the P8 lodged in the US. we have not seen any for the C130J yet. The time line for the C130 replacement is quite tight.
 
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4

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/paris-kc-390-prepares-for-promotional-tour-438336/
After Paris, the KC-390 will embark on an extensive sales tour, during which it will visit potential operators in North Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia, although the only nation on the itinerary that it will explicitly confirm is New Zealand, where the twinjet will visit the main air force bases at Whenuapai and Ohakea in mid-July.

Embraer has responded to requests for information for both Wellington’s future air mobility and future air surveillance capability requirements, intended to replace the Royal New Zealand Air Force’s Lockheed Martin C-130, P-3K2 and Boeing 757 fleets.
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Embraer still hopeful.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/paris-tokyos-four-engined-mpa-makes-waves-438322/

Japan still pushing P1.

Lots of news from the Paris Air Show at the usual sites.
 
N

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
An armed C130J with a 30 mm cannon would be a fantastic addition to support NZSAS operations. I will be surprised if a fully kitted SOF C130J gets the nod but it would be a truly specialized contribution to allied coalition operations. A niche capability well suited to a small force like NZ.
 
t68

t68

Well-Known Member
Novascotiaboy said:
An armed C130J with a 30 mm cannon would be a fantastic addition to support NZSAS operations. I will be surprised if a fully kitted SOF C130J gets the nod but it would be a truly specialized contribution to allied coalition operations. A niche capability well suited to a small force like NZ.
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For the very few aircraft that RNZAF will acquire I doubt they would go to the extreme of fitting the 30mm, all that would be additional cost and not so sure that they will go that far. Armed overwatch would be a good addition and may also provide enough synergy to conduct additional MPA aircraft

From memory they are after a mulinrole machine which can conduct AAR both deliver and receive, I'm not entirely sure of the reasoning but it does give the C130 extend range (still not comparable with A400M as it also has the capabilty) but the KC-130J allows to self offload on the ground(A400M also)

I guess what it all boils down to how much emphasis does RNZAF place on the oversize load ability of the A400M over the evolved special mission variants of the C130J family
 
K

kiwi in exile

Active Member
t68 said:
For the very few aircraft that RNZAF will acquire I doubt they would go to the extreme of fitting the 30mm, all that would be additional cost and not so sure that they will go that far. Armed overwatch would be a good addition and may also provide enough synergy to conduct additional MPA aircraft

From memory they are after a mulinrole machine which can conduct AAR both deliver and receive, I'm not entirely sure of the reasoning but it does give the C130 extend range (still not comparable with A400M as it also has the capabilty) but the KC-130J allows to self offload on the ground(A400M also)

I guess what it all boils down to how much emphasis does RNZAF place on the oversize load ability of the A400M over the evolved special mission variants of the C130J family
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My guess (my hope) is that they will give preference to more capability in the bread and butter role over specialised niche capabilities. Overwatch, without the airsupport capability, will hiopefully be provided by other future platforms.
 
A

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
ngatimozart said:
Lockheed Martin has revealed another C-10J variant; this time one aimed at SOF. It is suggesting that NZ is a potential customer for this variant.
Lockheed reveals customizable C-130J for international special operators

Also the article stated that they think the RFP for the FAMC will be issued next year.
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This seems rather similar to the USMC 'Harvest Hawk' package, though I note the Harvest Hawk, includes a simgle refuelling point, on the opposite wing to where the 'weaponised' wing station is located, allowing a refulleing capability at the same time as armed overwatch and all the bread and butter C-130J capabilities, making it a very flexible platform indeed.

I think RNZAF would be well-served by such mission flexibility, but time will tell. :D
 
t68

t68

Well-Known Member
40 deg south said:
https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/air-potential-synergies-kiwis/

At the Australian Strategic Policy Institute's blog 'The Strategist', a defense journo talks up the synergies of NZ buying aircraft already in service with Australia.

Fair points, and something that Wellington will be well aware of. However, he doesn't address the capability gaps that a C-130J purchase would leave in the absence of a larger lifter.
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That's also assuming the RAAF stay with C-130 on the future, we should be kicking off replacement program in 10-12 years time
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
t68 said:
That's also assuming the RAAF stay with C-130 on the future, we should be kicking off replacement program in 10-12 years time
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How old are your current C-130Js? By kicking off, do you mean actually taking delivery 15 years from now? The RCAF C-130Js were delivered between 2010-12 so they will be remaining in service for at least 30 years given our procurement mess.
 
t68

t68

Well-Known Member
John Fedup said:
How old are your current C-130Js? By kicking off, do you mean actually taking delivery 15 years from now? The RCAF C-130Js were delivered between 2010-12 so they will be remaining in service for at least 30 years given our procurement mess.
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Goverment ordered C-130J in 1995 for delivery starting in 1999, as there was no real alternative at the time im guessing the programs start date was 5 years prior ( I imagine there would be an ANAO report but havnt came across one yet)

Also at the time we traded in our E models for a reduced price as well has having 27 options which were to be a mix of AAR and an AWAC variant we also had taken the prudent step of including 8 options for RNZAF so they could get in the cheaper price but unfortunately as we know these were not taken up.

This time around RAAF may have a few more options open to the one being the A400M and also the US future vertical lift program which may or may not included replacements for US C130 fleet, so I am guessing a program start of around 2017/19 to look at options with replacement mid 2030's
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Ok, the timing makes sense now. I didn't realize Australia had a 10 year head start on C-130Js compared to Canada. As you likely are aware, Canada has a bad habit to keeping kit well past the best before date.:D
 
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