Royal New Zealand Air Force

[Gibbo]

Chris the whole air mobility study is not just about the replacement of the C-130 and B757. They have been looking at ALL options across the spectrum. Strategic and Tactical and not limited to fixed wing only. (There is a 3 Sqd pilot with RAF Chinooks right now and he is there their to learn - they dont place pilots in irrelevant exchange slots). That could even include a large tactical rotary such as yes - the CH-47, which with a C-17 and in the context of where and how we are likely to operate in the future as a JATF is not to be discounted as much as any number of possible operating vignettes we suggest.

The air mobility study is also about transitioning from the current way we operate with the current capabilities into new capabilities centred around the JATF. That is why I argue that keeping the C-130 around longer cannot be ruled out and the the time frame of this transition has flexible dates. So if we are speculating alternatives or possibilities the net is wider than people think beyond the obvious. I'd say there are going to be some surprises.

"...transitioning...into new capabilities centred around the JATF..." - that's positive to hear as it means a fresh, wide ranging view of transport requirements is being considered - not afraid to change & free of blinkers! We have to get the transport fleet right - it's a very long-term investment that will largely dictate JATF deployment options for decades to come. Anyway that's preaching to the converted!

What is starting to really get me excited about the C17 story is Brownlee has stated in the Sunday Star Times article that he finds it odd that the NZDF has significant amounts of equipment and limited ability to deploy it (not withstanding HMNZS Canterbury) so he certaimly comes across as very keen on the idea. But then blow me down - Phil Goff has apparently give support in principle! Such cross-parliament agreement on defence matters is so incredibly rare these days that it's quite possibly a lot more likely that I have anticipated.

Article below states 2-4 being considered - think that might just be a guesstimate, besides must be tight on numbers of available white-tails.

PressReader - Connecting People Through News (search on 'C17')
Reports: NZ considering C-17 acquisition | Australian Aviation

 

[old faithful]

Hmmm, 4 C17, s for NZ would be a huge plus for the region.
But it might have an impact on the Canterbury replacment as well as other Navy plans. Guess we will have to wait and see.
Exciting thought though, 4 C17, s and maybe 6 C27, s?

 

[Gibbo]

Hmmm, 4 C17, s for NZ would be a huge plus for the region.
But it might have an impact on the Canterbury replacment as well as other Navy plans. Guess we will have to wait and see.
Exciting thought though, 4 C17, s and maybe 6 C27, s?

Don't know why but my 'gut-feel' tells me it would be more like 2 x C17 (3 at the outside). 2 would be a little restrictive if there's no other long-range fleet to back them up & if that were the case 5 x C130J would be my preference. If we were to get 3 or more of these beasts 5 x C27J would probably suit.

I don't really think any C17 purchase would necessarily impact the Canterbury replacement as (1) the latter is a lot further off yet & (2) the C17 & Canterbury fill completely different strategic roles.

 

[MrConservative]

There was one helo pilot on exchange with a RAF chook squadron who came back recently after a TOD in Afghan with that chook squadron. Going by memory he received an award too for his conduct in theatre whilst under fire etc.

I'll broaden my horizons somewhat then and suggest maybe be some chooks but draw the line at Ospreys. I do think that possibly 2 x C17, 4 x A400, 4 - 6 x C27J, 3 - 4 x chooks, 2 more NH90s and some more AW109s. I have chosen the A400 because the Herc is coming to the end of its life and the A400 is new technology with good chance of surviving 40 years. I think the NZG is starting to realise now that it has to look at what will last that long and still may be around then. The USAF is already looking at the C130 replacement. The next DWP is going to be interesting and the Air Mobility Study will make interesting reading when (if) it's released.

This is all pure supposition on my part and just a guess.

Ospreys are brilliant nevertheless. I bet they have taken a cursory look at the paperwork about them as well - out of sheer interest of course. But the Nimbys hate them cause they are not great neighbours noise-wise.

I am not sure about signing off on all the air mobility posibilities until we know what is going to replace the CY. Because it is all integrated. It is working in the Purple environment from now on. Same with the rotary requirements. Though more AW109s are needed especially 3 in the Power version and ideally 3 more in the LUH. Once we know the future center piece vessel of the JATF then we can plan more houlistically.

My preference is however to grab 4 C-17s. either fully or partially. Maybe 2-3 definates under RNZAF ownership with an arrangement to share 1 to 2 of the OZ optioned ones - at least 4 based in NZ.

Final upgrade on the C-130H per props and engine to eek out the fleet. Restrict operational hours of the fleet to 1500 hours per annum. Leased 73NG in pure passenger configuration only under Civ Reg 757s sold and off the official NZDF books with the gazillions they cost per annum under output 13.1 sustaining the C-17 fleet.

 

[John Fedup]

Sensible choice? Two to four refurbished C-5, six new A400M, 12 new C-27J

Actually that's not a bad capabilty strategic and tactical wise, I have read in numerous article that the C5 fleet still has a lot of life left in them would not be in a international partnership arrangement you lose a lot of synergy unlike the C17 which as said is part of an global sustainment partnership.

I won't comment on the rest

I believe the USAF committed to convert its suitable C-5s to the C-5M standard, new GE engines, new avionics, and some other stuff. They wanted them all and will not part with them. Not sure if a C-5 has ever landed at Mcmurdo so it may not meet NZ's mission requirement for this.

 

[MrConservative]

Don't know why but my 'gut-feel' tells me it would be more like 2 x C17 (3 at the outside). 2 would be a little restrictive if there's no other long-range fleet to back them up & if that were the case 5 x C130J would be my preference. If we were to get 3 or more of these beasts 5 x C27J would probably suit.

I don't really think any C17 purchase would necessarily impact the Canterbury replacement as (1) the latter is a lot further off yet & (2) the C17 & Canterbury fill completely different strategic roles.

But there lies the sheer genius opportunity in the C17. The OZ are now to get 8. With 2 hopefully in the bag for us and if the option for the other two OZ airframes are operated jointly or shared and NZ based as could be a possibility, it would counteract the 'we only have 2' moaning. It would mean that at certain times of emergency we could have access to 4 and the RAAF access to 10 as the need and demand arose. That said any emergency usually means that both the ADF and NZDF would be acting jointly if it is a HADR or security incident. It is more an issue if a C-17 goes u/s another is on ops and we need to do a trip down to collect the beakerheads at Scott Base. Collectively 12 in the ANZAC region. That would be impressive.

This jointness stuff is common sense. Not just within services but with respect to both countries. Collectively we are stronger and more capable together than by ourselves. The next Big E will be a great joint asset as will the LWSV in terms of the Anzac security picture. On the OZ threads many speak of needing further amphibous sealift beyond the phatships. A 27000 tonner is a bit on the large size but a mid teen tonne version discuseed on the Navy thread - that will handle CH-47s and NH-90s on its flight deck, with dock, under the RNZN flag would be a very welcome Anzac regional asset.

 

[t68]

A 300% increase in flight hours per annum with no doubt a 500% increase in operating hours with that suggested fleet.

Agree it's a major departure from what you currently have in the shed, I should have emphasised numbers better.

I believe the better fit is the C17 due to the fact that so many third countries outside the US have them. I was looking at the capabilty of the aircraft not numbers sorry about the confusion.

Agree about NZ tasking will get more and more as you capabilty increase and you fully reintegrate within the ANZUS treaty, once all the pieces are in place NZDF will be mightily capabile force to be reckon with in the region and combinend with the ADF we will hold our own

 

[htbrst]

"...he finds it odd that the NZDF has significant amounts of equipment and limited ability to deploy it (not withstanding HMNZS Canterbury) so he certaimly comes across as very keen on the idea.

I wonder if the C-17 also allows the Canterbury more effective given shes hardly likey to be carrying NH-90's when out and about as normal practice given the small numbers in the inventory.

Rather than requiring her to return to NZ over a matter of days to pick up much of the heavy equipment and helicopters, a reasonable amount could be flown to a much closer port.

 

[t68]

I wonder if the C-17 also allows the Canterbury more effective given shes hardly likey to be carrying NH-90's when out and about as normal practice given the small numbers in the inventory.

Rather than requiring her to return to NZ over a matter of days to pick up much of the heavy equipment and helicopters, a reasonable amount could be flown to a much closer port.

Can't remember the whole story, but some years ago when NZ was coming over for a EX a C17 was dispatched to make room for mor equipment on Canty for the life of me I can't remember what it was but it did illustrate the effectiveness between joint Sea/Airlift for defence

 

[the road runner]

Collectively 12 in the ANZAC region. That would be impressive.

Would be great for the whole region no doubt. I do favor the C-17 over the the A400 as i believe a number of Euro countries are cutting orders for A400.Will this effect cost per aircraft? I believe so.

The C-17 is no doubt a head turner ,and can haul most of the gear the NZ defense forces have.Whispers are being heard about countries wanting more C-17 ,India,Middle Eastern countries,some have placed orders and those white tails are finding homes.It is getting to a stage of...first in best dressed , and i do hope NZ pulls the trigger.

This jointness stuff is common sense. Not just within services but with respect to both countries. Collectively we are stronger and more capable together than by ourselves.

Agreed , a bigger pool of both aircrews and maintenance crews also enhances each other defense forces.Learning off each others experience and how one another operates is a big bonus

 

[kiwi in exile]

Hmmm, 4 C17, s for NZ would be a huge plus for the region.
But it might have an impact on the Canterbury replacment as well as other Navy plans. Guess we will have to wait and see.
Exciting thought though, 4 C17, s and maybe 6 C27, s?

4 x C17. We may have to rename JATF joint airmoble task force.

 

[ngatimozart]

4 x C17. We may have to rename JATF joint airmoble task force.

Why? The CTY is not slated for replacement until around 2030 and if needs must we would have to put up with her until then. When you look at this, it is a surprise that the NZG is actually seriously looking at C17s, given their miserly history with regards to defence. Hence we might just have to ditch some closely held preconceptions over the side, so to speak although I'm not holding my breath.

 

[t68]

Why? The CTY is not slated for replacement until around 2030 and if needs must we would have to put up with her until then. When you look at this, it is a surprise that the NZG is actually seriously looking at C17s, given their miserly history with regards to defence. Hence we might just have to ditch some closely held preconceptions over the side, so to speak although I'm not holding my breath.

It might be the penny has finally dropped about the difference between a defence force and coast guard $ wise

 

[ngatimozart]

It might be the penny has finally dropped about the difference between a defence force and coast guard

I would really like to think so, but I am quite hesitant to go that far yet. Let us wait and see.

 

[Cadredave]

It might be the penny has finally dropped about the difference between a defence force and coast guard $ wise

No we finally have leadership with the intellectual smarts who can foot it with the best in Treasury, PM Department & MFAT. Current Gov Gen brief to 1RNZIR Offr & SNOC's when he was CDF "if you cant talk the language you will get run over by the other Govt dept that can" education is the key. Since then we have had successive CDF, CA, CAF, CN who have been consistent describing capability & what it costs to and what it provides to team purple & whole of Government.

CD

 

[ngatimozart]

Ospreys are brilliant nevertheless. I bet they have taken a cursory look at the paperwork about them as well - out of sheer interest of course. But the Nimbys hate them cause they are not great neighbours noise-wise.

I am not sure about signing off on all the air mobility posibilities until we know what is going to replace the CY. Because it is all integrated. It is working in the Purple environment from now on. Same with the rotary requirements. Though more AW109s are needed especially 3 in the Power version and ideally 3 more in the LUH. Once we know the future center piece vessel of the JATF then we can plan more houlistically.

My preference is however to grab 4 C-17s. either fully or partially. Maybe 2-3 definates under RNZAF ownership with an arrangement to share 1 to 2 of the OZ optioned ones - at least 4 based in NZ.

Final upgrade on the C-130H per props and engine to eek out the fleet. Restrict operational hours of the fleet to 1500 hours per annum. Leased 73NG in pure passenger configuration only under Civ Reg 757s sold and off the official NZDF books with the gazillions they cost per annum under output 13.1 sustaining the C-17 fleet.

Just looking at Ospreys from reading this Israel Angles to Extend US Offer for V-22s it looks like the standard package for six Osprey is an estimated US$1.3 billion (~NZ$1.7 billion) which I would presume includes spares documentation etc. Unfortunately for NZ we wouldn't get a deal like the Israelis manage to get regularly.

On different matter, a Restricted Request For Tender has been issued by the Ministry of Defence for the P3K2 Orion Underwater Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Capability.

 

[htbrst]

There is an opinion piece in todays' Dom Post about the Hercules replacement. There is nothing new to readers on here, but it does at least give a summary of the options of C-17, A400, C-27 and C295 for the general public without any of the politicising of most articles relating to defense in NZ papers:

Weighing up the alternatives to NZ's Hercules fleet | Stuff.co.nz

 

[MrConservative]

Good article though brief. Greener has done a good job of framing the issue.

Though the misinformed will start to make silly remarks in the comments section.

The how often they will be used question he raises is not valid going on the experience of the RAAF. Someone should point that out.

 

[RegR]

Yes good article, now Joe public will at least be aware of the project (although most still will not care) and the possible options, costs and capability afforded.

I would even say author is either a member of this forum or has at least veiwed it as everything he brought up, opinions included, has been discussed on this thread in depth.

MrC the difference between us and Aus is that as well as C17 they have multiple other options of varying lift, range and capability to cover all tasks with what best suits operationally, feasably and economically plus we have differing workload scales proportionally. We would realistically have a couple (hopefully few) C17 and possibly a few 'other' lifters depending on the kitty, more in one arena means less in the other. Medium or small will depend on how much or little is viably taken up by C17 and what spectrum we will be left wanting in most.

 

[t68]

Although I would clearly like to see the Kiwi roundel on C17 and unless you buy three with a buy of six C130J, I would prefer you buy A400 and with the AAR kit in numbers (6) with 6 CH47F along with a refueling probe attached