Royal New Zealand Air Force

[40 deg south]

Didn't stop us from embarking on some highly complex and risky upgrades to the C-130 and P3 fleets , a training aircraft is very basic in comparison, as you point out all 3 major components are proven in their own way so technical risk should be low, the NH90 was not exactly a mature platform when it was ordered either.

I'm not sure the C-130 and P3 upgrades are an encouraging precedent from a defence management viewpoint.

Current Acquisition Projects [Ministry of Defence NZ]

The C-130 upgrade was approved in 2004, and required further cash top-ups in 2007 and 2010. I'm not sure what the original time frame was, but nine years and counting seems a tad high to me.

The P3 upgrade was also approved in 2004, and the 6th aircraft is due for completion in early 2014, making it a round decade.

Then there is the Project Protector fleet moving straight from delivery to remediation...

None of this expressly rules out the Grob 120TP (or any other new-ish piece of equipment, for that matter). On paper, their product looks ideal. But I reckon Grob's chances would be better if they could point to a couple of established operators willing to give it their product the big thumbs-up.

 

[ngatimozart]

I'm not sure the C-130 and P3 upgrades are an encouraging precedent from a defence management viewpoint.

Current Acquisition Projects [Ministry of Defence NZ]

The C-130 upgrade was approved in 2004, and required further cash top-ups in 2007 and 2010. I'm not sure what the original time frame was, but nine years and counting seems a tad high to me.

The P3 upgrade was also approved in 2004, and the 6th aircraft is due for completion in early 2014, making it a round decade.

Then there is the Project Protector fleet moving straight from delivery to remediation...

None of this expressly rules out the Grob 120TP (or any other new-ish piece of equipment, for that matter). On paper, their product looks ideal. But I reckon Grob's chances would be better if they could point to a couple of established operators willing to give it their product the big thumbs-up.

Now IIRC I am sure it was the C130 LEP where the contractor in the US had problems and there were interminable delays with the contractor finally going belly up. Safe Air were a subcontractor and I think it was two where things were at a standstill with aircraft No 1 in pieces in the US. Finally the Min Def took over the project and project management and Safe Air did all the work. Once the first aircraft was done and certified the rest have gone and are going through Safe Air at Woodbourne tout suite.

 

[40 deg south]

Now IIRC I am sure it was the C130 LEP where the contractor in the US had problems and there were interminable delays with the contractor finally going belly up.

Good point, although a supplier going bust is one of the hazards of life.

Just thinking through some of the potential aircraft that have been discussed here recently gives the following:

Beechcraft - went bust in 2012 - came out of bankruptcy this year having shed it's money-losing line of executive jets

Grob - went bust in 2008 trying to develop a light jet. Turboprop training assets bought by new company H3 Aerospace in 2009.

Dornier - legendary German airframer went bust in 2002 developing a commuter jet. Rights to Do228 STOL turboprop acquired by Swiss defence/aerospace conglomerate RUAG around 2009.

If NZDF considers financial stability a major factor in selecting new aircraft, then expect to see something built by Pilatus arriving at Ohakea soon!

 

[htbrst]

NH-90 Damaged by Lightning

One of the NH-90's has been struck by lightning and is out-of-action - possibly for some time.

I wonder if the improved capability of the NH-90 over the UH-1 means they go out in weather that they wouldn't have in a UH-1.


RNZAF chopper grounded after lightning strike - Story - NZ News - 3 News

A Royal New Zealand Air Force NH-90 helicopter is out of action following a lightning strike.

The Defence Force confirmed the helicopter was hit by lightning in August while returning to the Ohakea Airbase.

The NH-90 landed safely at the base and no one was injured in the incident.

A spokesperson for the Defence Force said the RNZAF is still assessing the damage and the cost of repairs is not yet known. He did not know when the helicopter will return to service.

He said it was not uncommon for aircraft to be hit by lightning.

The air force spent $771 million on eight of the NH-90s and replaced the fleet of Iroquois helicopters it had used for 45 years.

The NH-90 can fly up to 300km/h, can carry up to 18 lightly equipped troops and has a range of 800km.

 

[kiwi in exile]

One of the NH-90's has been struck by lightning and is out-of-action - possibly for some time.

The Herad is stating that the main and tail rotor will all need replacing.
Lightning takes down air force craft at big cost - National - NZ Herald News
Don't we have a spare set on the spare airframe, or has that not arrived yet.
I'm a little surprised that a lightening strike would cause so much damage, given that (from what I have heard) they are relatively common and aircraft are designed to withstand them.

 

[ngatimozart]

The Herad is stating that the main and tail rotor will all need replacing.
Lightning takes down air force craft at big cost - National - NZ Herald News
Don't we have a spare set on the spare airframe, or has that not arrived yet.
I'm a little surprised that a lightening strike would cause so much damage, given that (from what I have heard) they are relatively common and aircraft are designed to withstand them.

I had to ask around to get some info but composites don't handle lightening strikes well at all, unlike metal. On metal aircraft the lightening energy just passes through the aircraft and exits not doing any damage. However with composites it tends to shatter them, so some have a fine metallic grid to direct the energy to an exit point, thereby avoiding the shattering but calls into question the structural integrity of the composite structure after the strike. On the TV3 News tonight they said that the strike involved all four main rotor blades plus the tail rotor and avionics. Airframe No 9 is in a packing case and is being used as spares.

 

[KiwiRob]

So why not turn this one into the spares airframe and active the one bought as a spare part?

 

[KH-12]

So why not turn this one into the spares airframe and active the one bought as a spare part?

The spares aircraft is totally stripped and the airframe is a bare shell, so you would have to reassemble it , easier to throw the rotors on the damaged one and repair any airframe composite damage

 

[t68]

Have I got this right, it’s just the blades and not the airframe?
Being a composite airframe would it also be susceptible to the same damage if the lightning stuck the actual airframe and not the blades?

Airframe - NHIndustries

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2012_q4/4/

 

[ngatimozart]

Have I got this right, it’s just the blades and not the airframe?
Being a composite airframe would it also be susceptible to the same damage if the lightning stuck the actual airframe and not the blades?

Airframe - NHIndustries

Lightning Strikes: Protection, Inspection, and Repair

From what was said on the news it was the rotors and tail rotor plus some electronics. Originally I said avionics but the NZ Herald said that the avionics weren't damaged.Lightning takes down air force craft at big cost - National - NZ Herald News But then the Herald isn't known for the accuracy of its defence reporting and they have a very strong bias towards Phil Goff the last Labour Defence Minister.

 

[40 deg south]

There are now two groups bidding for the Australian pilot training system.

In one corner we have BAE Systems, CAE and Beechcraft lining up with the Texan T-6C. BAE currently run ADF's basic flight training facility at Tamworth.

BAE teams with Beechcraft and CAE for AIR 5428 | Australian Aviation Magazine

In the other corner, we have Lockheed martin, Hawker pacific and Pilatus with the PC-21.

Lockheed Martin, Pilatus, Hawker Pacific team for AIR 5428 | Australian Aviation Magazine

I'm not sure how relevant this is to NZ. The Aussies have much deeper pockets than we do, and the need to train pilots for fast jets. Time will tell - I understand NZ originally intended to make a decision before Australia. Unsure if this is still the case.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I had to ask around to get some info but composites don't handle lightening strikes well at all, unlike metal.

I'm finding this a bit odd

eg the issue and effects of lightning striking a metal item in a non metal frame has been around for a long while.

eg when I was contracting and involved with wind turbines we dealt with that issue on every wind turbine blade made - as its a repeated and known issue

basically we built a sacrificial anode (metal strip) into the frame of the composite or fibreglass body. Its made of allow and designed to sacrifice itself rather than let the lightning do further damage. I've seen lightning strike on a few blades where someone hadn't qc'd the blade. On a 35tonne blade its an impressive vision of the destructive power of lightning

to be frank, the claim made just doesn't make sense to me as we spoke to well known fixed wing aircraft and helicopter companies to discuss how they managed lightning strikes

the story is coming across as either incomplete or ill informed/relayed

 

[ngatimozart]

I'm finding this a bit odd

eg the issue and effects of lightning striking a metal item in a non metal frame has been around for a long while.

eg when I was contracting and involved with wind turbines we dealt with that issue on every wind turbine blade made - as its a repeated and known issue

basically we built a sacrificial anode (metal strip) into the frame of the composite or fibreglass body. Its made of allow and designed to sacrifice itself rather than let the lightning do further damage. I've seen lightning strike on a few blades where someone hadn't qc'd the blade. On a 35tonne blade its an impressive vision of the destructive power of lightning

to be frank, the claim made just doesn't make sense to me as we spoke to well known fixed wing aircraft and helicopter companies to discuss how they managed lightning strikes

the story is coming across as either incomplete or ill informed/relayed

I relayed as it was told to me. I saw an item on another site written by a guy who was in the jump seat of the affected helo when it happened and he said that the aircraft did everything it was supposed to do. The avionics performed well and apparently weren't affected. They flew the aircaft back to Ohakea and landed without incident. The RNZAF is in the early stages of its investigation.

 

[htbrst]

I relayed as it was told to me. I saw an item on another site written by a guy who was in the jump seat of the affected helo when it happened and he said that the aircraft did everything it was supposed to do. The avionics performed well and apparently weren't affected. They flew the aircaft back to Ohakea and landed without incident. The RNZAF is in the early stages of its investigation.

The defense minister expects it back in the air by the end of November as per

Big bill likely for chopper repair | Stuff.co.nz

I suspect that a set of rotor blades and tail rotor won't be exactly be small change!

 

[htbrst]

757

A couple of news+updates related to the RNZAF's 757's...

The first is that Air NZ is running proving flights of a 767 service to take over the role of transporting Antarctic NZ personnel to the ice from the RNZAF. This has the advantage of the 767 can land and return to NZ without refuelling on the ground.

Air New Zealand to trial 767 flights to Antarctica

The other is that for the first time, a NZ aircraft (rather than US C-17 as in the last few years) has been the first on the ice for the season. Unfortunately there were a few dramas...

McCully in Antarctic emergency landing - Story - NZ News - 3 News

Essentially the weather closed in after the 757 had passed to point of no return, so they had to land regardless.

There's nothing like putting the Foreign Minister in a spot of bother to encourage them to purchase a superior replacement when the time comes!

( A 767 such as that planned to be run by Air NZ, would not have a point of no return, having enough range to there and back)

 

[gf0012-aust]

I relayed as it was told to me. I saw an item on another site written by a guy who was in the jump seat of the affected helo when it happened and he said that the aircraft did everything it was supposed to do. The avionics performed well and apparently weren't affected. They flew the aircaft back to Ohakea and landed without incident. The RNZAF is in the early stages of its investigation.

I'm not doubting the event

My credulous response is about the fact that a major manufacturer of aircraft didn't build in a sacrificial anode bar into the bum of the helo.

I've seem what happens when those bars take a hit - and from what I've seen first hand and evaluated, it shouldn't be a catastrophic outcome.

I'd like to see what lightning mitigators are built in to that airframe - but a sacrificial anode has been around for decades - and the same tech has been used on composite, fibreglass, RFP bodies for more than 40 years (ie since the F1117 went meanstream and was first publicly acknowledged)

 

[ngatimozart]

A couple of news+updates related to the RNZAF's 757's...

The first is that Air NZ is running proving flights of a 767 service to take over the role of transporting Antarctic NZ personnel to the ice from the RNZAF. This has the advantage of the 767 can land and return to NZ without refuelling on the ground.

Air New Zealand to trial 767 flights to Antarctica

The other is that for the first time, a NZ aircraft (rather than US C-17 as in the last few years) has been the first on the ice for the season. Unfortunately there were a few dramas...

McCully in Antarctic emergency landing - Story - NZ News - 3 News

Essentially the weather closed in after the 757 had passed to point of no return, so they had to land regardless.

There's nothing like putting the Foreign Minister in a spot of bother to encourage them to purchase a superior replacement when the time comes!

( A 767 such as that planned to be run by Air NZ, would not have a point of no return, having enough range to there and back)

Both the 757 and 767 could be back down there soon reasonably quickly. The USG shutdown has impacted on the ice and the NSF will make a decision in next few days whether or not to shut the 2013/14 summer program down forthwith. Lockheed the contractor the NSF use for their logistic support says it has enough money to run until mid October which is next week. One RNZAF C130 spent a week down there socked in due to weather and I think a second one may have gone down in last few days. If the season is canned then they will be operating flat out to get people and gear back. Christchurch Jobs At Risk In Antarctic Decision | Stuff.co.nz

 

[RegR]

I had to ask around to get some info but composites don't handle lightening strikes well at all, unlike metal. On metal aircraft the lightening energy just passes through the aircraft and exits not doing any damage. However with composites it tends to shatter them, so some have a fine metallic grid to direct the energy to an exit point, thereby avoiding the shattering but calls into question the structural integrity of the composite structure after the strike. On the TV3 News tonight they said that the strike involved all four main rotor blades plus the tail rotor and avionics. Airframe No 9 is in a packing case and is being used as spares.

The spare 90 frame is sitting in the 109 hanger next to the spare 109, if you look carefully you can actually see it from SH1 on your way past Ohakea.

 

[KiwiRob]

( A 767 such as that planned to be run by Air NZ, would not have a point of no return, having enough range to there and back)

I'm not sure what you mean by planned to be run by Air NZ? Air NZ have been operating 767's since 1985.

 

[MrConservative]

I'm not sure what you mean by planned to be run by Air NZ? Air NZ have been operating 767's since 1985.

I think he means planned to run down to the Ice Rob. The 6ers have been around for awhile now haven't they. Do they still do the run up to Raro?