Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

Joe Black

Active Member
But to be honest, I feel that the Canadians are probably gearing towards Type 26. One thing worth considering is the Navantia's bid for the USN FFX. Should Navantia win the FFX program, perhaps it is not better for the Canadian to just adopt the same ship/design?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Probably just as well that only 3 firms put in bids.

Imagine if they had to evaluate half a dozen or more contenders ... the process would drag on for decades.
True, with three bidders, there will only be two companies launching legal challenges.:)
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
But to be honest, I feel that the Canadians are probably gearing towards Type 26. One thing worth considering is the Navantia's bid for the USN FFX. Should Navantia win the FFX program, perhaps it is not better for the Canadian to just adopt the same ship/design?
I think you are right, the T26 is favoured in all likelihood. As to mirroring the USN choice, not so sure if there would much benefit economically. As ASW is the probable main driver for the RCN, the choice will be based on this. The question will be the price to performance ratio wrt ASW, will the more expensive T26 offer more?
 

J_Can

Member
I think you are right, the T26 is favoured in all likelihood. As to mirroring the USN choice, not so sure if there would much benefit economically. As ASW is the probable main driver for the RCN, the choice will be based on this. The question will be the price to performance ratio wrt ASW, will the more expensive T26 offer more?
Just the feeling I get from the RCN public memo briefs and want they want out of the SCSC reminds me of infantry saying about armour "death before dismount". I would say the RCN is the same, they would sooner rather become a coast guard they give up up their ASW focus. I do not blame they're tasking in the Atlantic has not changed much since the Second World War. Keep the supplies going, wipe out the submarine threat, and show the flag on occasion.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Given the proliferation of new SSKs in the Pacific, I would say ASW capability for the CSC selection is needed in both oceans. It is needed in our third ocean area as well but only nuclear subs can do a proper job up in the Arctic as far as I am concerned.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Looking at the three contenders and the Canadian timeframe I would concur that the Type 26 would be the favourite.

The Navantia offering may suit countries like Australia simply because of the saving involved in basically just extending the production line of a ship that is already in service. Both the Dutch and Spanish designs are also primarily air-defence vessels but ASW seems to be a bigger priority for Canada.

Ironically I think the only other ship design that would be a better option then the type 26 is the FREMM.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Agree about both the T26 and FREMM comments. As per a previous post, all three bidders must address some compliance issues. I think the T26 is favoured but if price is really north of the others, very problematical, both economically and politically given the rapid rejection of Fincantieri's unsolicited bid.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
From my POV, if the northern ice is going to keep receding over the coming decades and/or the Northwest Passage opens, at least seasonally, then the RCN will also need to consider providing escort vessels a robust self and area air defence capability, as well as a comprehensive ASW capability.

Canada could find itself with RCN vessels in conflict and engaging with Russia subs, surface vessels and aircraft over competing claims to undersea Arctic resources. As a matter of interest, it is only ~2,200 km from one of the northernmost points of the Russian mainland to Canada's northernmost permanently inhabited settlement.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Also, when the ice declines, northern Canada will be a vast unprotected access area into North America for drug dealers, smugglers, and terrorists. Hardly a concern for junior though.
 

Meriv90

Active Member
I'm sorry for the tone of the post but it has been a bad day :(

From our POV, no offense intended, but it was a total mess.

The program budget skyrocketed.

First it was 15 ships, after it was just 3 ships and "we are going to decide what to do after".

The fact that the Canadian government gave Irving so much power, are we supposed to give them full tech data so after the first 3 ships they are going to build them themselves? There wasn't even a No-Compete Clause on international markets!

The ad hoc change to the program to let BAE in, plus they already had contracts with the program manager (Irving), that is already a big conflict of interest to not say it smell fishy!

Think about it, if the French that have a way stronger marketing game than us Italians , the same ones that are able sell without any problems to Saudis and Indians, decide to not even enter the contest it means there is something really wrong.

Plus we learnt the lesson with our C27, you have a FWSAR plane (C-295) flying over the artic without APU, that takes ten more hours to rescue (LOL!) after having won the program with a proposal 50% over budget!

Or the AW-101! How is going with your Cyclones? You can fool us once twice but not a third time.

This is not a rhetoric question but a serious one to learn. The last big program acquisition from Uk were the Victoria class, how it went? What plans do you have for the future for your subs?
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I'm sorry for the tone of the post but it has been a bad day :(

From our POV, no offense intended, but it was a total mess.

The program budget skyrocketed.

First it was 15 ships, after it was just 3 ships and "we are going to decide what to do after".

The fact that the Canadian government gave Irving so much power, are we supposed to give them full tech data so after the first 3 ships they are going to build them themselves? There wasn't even a No-Compete Clause on international markets!

The ad hoc change to the program to let BAE in, plus they already had contracts with the program manager (Irving), that is already a big conflict of interest to not say it smell fishy!

Think about it, if the French that have a way stronger marketing game than us Italians , the same ones that are able sell without any problems to Saudis and Indians, decide to not even enter the contest it means there is something really wrong.

Plus we learnt the lesson with our C27, you have a FWSAR plane (C-295) flying over the artic without APU, that takes ten more hours to rescue (LOL!) after having won the program with a proposal 50% over budget!

Or the AW-101! How is going with your Cyclones? You can fool us once twice but not a third time.

This is not a rhetoric question but a serious one to learn. The last big program acquisition from Uk were the Victoria class, how it went? What plans do you have for the future for your subs?
You sound like a very disillusioned Italian and you encapsulate all which is wrong with the Canadian acquisition processes.
The examples you gave are an illustration that the system is flawed and seems entirely Process driven and not result driven.
This once again begs the question; if 15 world class escorts are offered at half the price what system rejects the offer because of process?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
You sound like a very disillusioned Italian and you encapsulate all which is wrong with the Canadian acquisition processes.
The examples you gave are an illustration that the system is flawed and seems entirely Process driven and not result driven.
This once again begs the question; if 15 world class escorts are offered at half the price what system rejects the offer because of process?
Sometimes I think that the Canadians have taken onboard the Indian system of bureaucracy.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
It's not only the system we have taken on. Not all the Indian immigrants aren't working on berry farms in the Fraser Valley or elsewhere in the private sector, a large number are employed in the Canadian civil service. The other major group in the public service are Québécois.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It's not only the system we have taken on. Not all the Indian immigrants aren't working on berry farms in the Fraser Valley or elsewhere in the private sector, a large number are employed in the Canadian civil service. The other major group in the public service are Québécois.
You know ..... we are looking to start replacing our Hobart Class DDG in the mid to late 2030's (this is provided we are not engaged in some sort of emergency and/or the continuous build programme is not killed of by the politicians). They will be relatively young. Perhaps your DoD see an opportunity.

Sorry cheep shot but I could not resist.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Not a bad idea, especially if there is a late start on the CSC. It comes even better if Navantia wins the CSC tender.
 

Meriv90

Active Member
@GutoAberconwy confirms the 1st Type 26, HMS Glasgow is due to be accepted from builders summer 2025. She will not be fully operational until 2027.
If your Gov dont wake up after this i really dont know what to say, we are already in CPR sector, it must come back!
 

Calculus

Well-Known Member
This article provides details about why Fincantieri had concerns regarding the CSC tender process and felt a direct bid was the only option.

Firms didn’t bid on Canadian Surface Combatant because of concerns about technical data, says executive
We've already shown that the IP "issue" is completely overblown. Most of a warship's IP is associated with the CMS and weapons systems, all of which goes to the Government of Canada. I don't know why people keep bringing this up.
 
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