Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

Sender

Active Member
River Class Destroyer announced.
Very different from the earlier concepts. Now to build them.


Additional info River-class destroyer - Canada.ca


Interesting the rolling airframe missile for close in defence, and no x-band radar...
You mean Sea Ceptor?

First steel cut today as well:

 

Vanquish

Member
River Class Destroyer announced.
Very different from the earlier concepts. Now to build them.


Additional info River-class destroyer - Canada.ca


Interesting the rolling airframe missile for close in defence, and no x-band radar...

Nice looking ship. Interesting that they're now calling them destroyers. That's going to instantly have people say that they have far to few VLS to be considered proper destroyers, although I'm fine with it.
 

Sender

Active Member
River Class Destroyer announced.
Very different from the earlier concepts. Now to build them.


Additional info River-class destroyer - Canada.ca


Interesting the rolling airframe missile for close in defence, and no x-band radar...
My apologies @shadow99 . You are indeed correct. The new fact sheet clearly refers to RAM, which is a big change, IMHO. It does appear that maybe the structure holding the VLS cells is larger, leading to the conclusion there could be as many as 12 ExLS cells now, which would suggest 48 quad-packed missiles, either RAM or Sea Ceptor.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The only missiles mentioned on the info sheet are SM-2, ESSM, RAM, NSM and Tomahawk. In my view, 24 Mk 41 cells is insufficient air defence, particularly if you are carrying Tomahawk. Might be OK in the Atlantic but not the Pacific, at least not for first line ships.

ExLS cells are not mentioned; if they were planning to mount them why would you leave them off? And would you want Sea Ceptor if you have ESSM?

RAM cannot be fired vertically btw, it needs a dedicated launcher. Presumably their presence would mean these ships will not mount Phalanx. Both types of launcher are quite distinctive, but I can’t spot either in the drawing. They should be abreast the funnel if mounted in place of Phalanx, but they don’t seem to be there. My eyes, an omission from the drawing, or should the spec read Sea Ceptor?
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
IIRC the Canadians selected Sea Ceptor for better close-in performance than ESSM, & chose ExLS to launch it from.

It was ordered in 2021 - MBDA’s Sea Ceptor ordered for Canadian Surface Combatant | Press Release | MBDA

Given that, it's very odd that it's not mentioned on that sheet, but RAM is, & as you say, there don't seem to be any RAM launchers.

Hmmm. It could be that someone stuck "River Class" at the top of an old fact sheet. See what's said here - New weapon system is announced for the Canadian Surface Combatant – Canadian Naval Review

"Naval News is reporting that MBDA has confirmed the order on 19 April 2021 by Lockheed Martin to equip their Sea Ceptor Close in Air Defence (CIADS) Weapon System utilizing the Common Anti-air Modular Missile (CAMM) for the CSC Frigates. This system will replace the CIWS and Sea Ram weapon systems that were first envisioned for the frigates but with a much longer range. "

MBDA Confirms Sea Ceptor Order for Canadian Surface Combatant - Naval News
 

Sender

Active Member
IIRC the Canadians selected Sea Ceptor for better close-in performance than ESSM, & chose ExLS to launch it from.

It was ordered in 2021 - MBDA’s Sea Ceptor ordered for Canadian Surface Combatant | Press Release | MBDA

Given that, it's very odd that it's not mentioned on that sheet, but RAM is, & as you say, there don't seem to be any RAM launchers.

Hmmm. It could be that someone stuck "River Class" at the top of an old fact sheet. See what's said here - New weapon system is announced for the Canadian Surface Combatant – Canadian Naval Review

"Naval News is reporting that MBDA has confirmed the order on 19 April 2021 by Lockheed Martin to equip their Sea Ceptor Close in Air Defence (CIADS) Weapon System utilizing the Common Anti-air Modular Missile (CAMM) for the CSC Frigates. This system will replace the CIWS and Sea Ram weapon systems that were first envisioned for the frigates but with a much longer range. "

MBDA Confirms Sea Ceptor Order for Canadian Surface Combatant - Naval News
I've been following a similar discussion on a Canadian forum, and the general feeling is this is a late breaking decision influenced heavily by the Houthi drone attacks in the Red Sea and Golf of Yemen. RAM rounds are apparently cheaper than Sea Ceptor, and can be reloaded at sea. By substituting two MK 49 GMLS launchers for the six ExLS cells, you increase your missile count from 24 to 42, and could carry extra rounds onboard thus negating the requirement to return to port to reload. All supposition of course, but I also wondered why Canada chose Sea Ceptor for the CIADS role, when Sea Ceptor was more akin to ESSM. In any case, the good news is this program is now officially moving.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
For the ExLS, it will be CAMM. As per other posts, the RCN has decided it has better close in performance compared to ESSM and the whole purpose of the ExLS selection is for an alternative to Phalanx. The price difference between ESSM and CAMM, if significant, would be a factor.
 

Sender

Active Member
Hopefully the next batch gets 32 cells. Further down the road, if the RN’s proposed Type 83 is a T26 derivative then maybe the last 4 ships could be T83s. Events in the Red Sea are a illustration of how important missile inventory will be against a more capable adversary.
Apparently, in a townhall meeting, Admiral Topshee stated he had challenged the design teams to find a way to incorporate 48 Mk 41 cells, without sacrificing hangar or mission bay space. The challenge, supposedly, is weight. The SPY 7 is heavy, and high up, so ways to save weight are being looked at to try and accommodate the Admiral's wishes. There is that one rendering showing a hollowed out mast (attached) that might be influenced by that request. This will probably only show up in the Flight 2 designs, which are likely many years away, but good to hear that there is a recognition that more VLS are needed.
 

Attachments

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks, hadn’t seen that, and given the missile’s aerodynamic approach it must have been an interesting challenge to make it work. So far as I can ascertain none have actually been fitted as yet. Possibly because it would give away one of RAM’s great advantages - as noted above that it can be reloaded at sea. Something which despite various attempts, nobody has succeeded in doing in a sustainable way with VLS systems. And magazine depth is certainly a consideration!
 

Underway

Member
Apparently, in a townhall meeting, Admiral Topshee stated he had challenged the design teams to find a way to incorporate 48 Mk 41 cells, without sacrificing hangar or mission bay space. The challenge, supposedly, is weight. The SPY 7 is heavy, and high up, so ways to save weight are being looked at to try and accommodate the Admiral's wishes. There is that one rendering showing a hollowed out mast (attached) that might be influenced by that request. This will probably only show up in the Flight 2 designs, which are likely many years away, but good to hear that there is a recognition that more VLS are needed.
Its not # of VLS we are talking about here. We're using it as a short form for how deep is the magazine for the tasks you want to do. If you want pure VLS numbers then the T26 wins with 48 CAMM VLS plus the 12 extra Strike Length Mk41's. But each of those CAMM launchers are single missiles.

Switching to RAM increases the magazine depth for the CIAD portion of the ships requirements going to 42 missiles from 24 (unless they go with the 22 missile for two SeaRAM but that remains to be seen).

Not a lot of space left to put more VLS. Perhaps if the gun gets reduced down to say a 57mm you could get some more missiles on there. But that radar weighs approx 900 tons alone including all the associated support systems.

I don't see the RCN using 4 AAW missile types, (RAM, CAMM, ESSM and SM2) on the same ship. Perhaps an option is to use tactical length VLS or Self Defence instead of strike length for the extra missiles. Tactical can carry SM2 and ESSM. Self Defence takes ESSM only. Perhaps self defence VLS where the CAMM is currently located?

Its certainly confusing right now.
 
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76mmGuns

Active Member
Interestingly, Canada, like Australia, has not mentioned how many VLS cells they will fit.

Also interestingly, they call it a rather non aggressive name"River Class", unlike the "Hunter class" of Australia.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Interestingly, Canada, like Australia, has not mentioned how many VLS cells they will fit.

Also interestingly, they call it a rather non aggressive name"River Class", unlike the "Hunter class" of Australia.
The Mk41 configuration will be 24 cells. There will also be ExLS launchers for CAMM. Ship class names have never been aggressive. Current frigates are named after Canadian cities, hence “city class”. The previous 4 destroyers were named after native Canadian tribes, hence “tribal class”. The River class will be named after major Canadian rivers (way more than 15 of them) in case we need more ships in this class. The RCN is now calling the CSC destroyer.
 
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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
The Mk41 configuration will be 24 cells. There will also be ExLS launchers for CAMM. Ship class names have never been aggressive. Current frigates are named after Canadian cities, hence “city class”. The previous 4 destroyers were named after native Canadian tribes, hence “tribal class”. The River class will be named after major Canadian rivers (way more than 15 of them in case we need more ships in this class. The RCN is now calling the CSC destroyer.
Probably no different than calling the Tribal's Destroyers, the new ships probably have more in common with them than the Halifax's, especially in their original configuration.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
So the race is on between Australia and Canada to see which manages to get this ship in the water first. Canada will build 15 vessels by 2050 (I know). with the first 9 delivered by 2040. Australia aiming at 6 by 2043. First Australian ship to be delivered by 2032 and commissioned by 2034. Canada is just indicating sometime in the early thirties.

At this stage it comes down to who will screw up less that will determine the winner.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Irving will have completed at least six 6000 ton AOPS by the time the first River destroyer is started so their workforce should be ready to dive into the River build (hopefully).
 
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