Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Lots of assumptions on AIP and its easy to say wait and see. Weren't you just saying that we should move ahead with the procurement? It kind of negates your assumption that AIP and solid state fuel cells will have advanced significantly when its a decades old technology that is starting to be moved away from as advantages in battery technology starts to come on line. From what I can tell AIP will work for coastal navies on trips of short durations not long transits.
Its more complicated than this.

For example the Collins class uses a nuclear boat combat system and sensors, these consume more power but are more suitable for a boat out in the open ocean. European systems tend to be more power efficient smaller in scale, suiting a coastal submarine. This starts to extend the the entire design philosophy of the submarine. To the batteries, to the engines, to ventilation, to crewing.

Nuclear boats have essentially near unlimited power budgets, and this goes through the whole philosophy of every system. They can have very robust high power systems. Conventional submarines need to be more economical due to their more limited power budget.

At some point you need to pick where you want to be. For the RAN, regular surfacing isn't an issue, and fits in with their CONOPs. With a submarine you have limited volume and you have to make hard and fast design decisions that flow through the entire design. With the Submarine, how you intended to use it is very important.

Australia's whole thing is a forward defence. That is why we operate our air force out of Butterworth in Malaysia, Thousands of kilometres north of Australia. Our ships frequent ports in South East Asia. Australia is likely to take on operations that takes them directly into other nations waters. The key choke points lay thousands of kilometers north, there are not choke points around Australia in its waters.

Norway, adopts a European style defence, focused on their territorial waters and choke points there in. They are unlikely to taken on Russian subs in Russian waters They want something that can chase away and deter Russian incursions.

Canada needs to make some choices about what it needs and how it wants to operate. While a lot of noise is made about operating under ice, Canada has never had submarines designed to do that. Going from history, a long range conventional submarine would appear to be more inline with history of Canada's use of subs.
 
Its more complicated than this.

For example the Collins class uses a nuclear boat combat system and sensors, these consume more power but are more suitable for a boat out in the open ocean. European systems tend to be more power efficient smaller in scale, suiting a coastal submarine. This starts to extend the the entire design philosophy of the submarine. To the batteries, to the engines, to ventilation, to crewing.

Nuclear boats have essentially near unlimited power budgets, and this goes through the whole philosophy of every system. They can have very robust high power systems. Conventional submarines need to be more economical due to their more limited power budget.

At some point you need to pick where you want to be. For the RAN, regular surfacing isn't an issue, and fits in with their CONOPs. With a submarine you have limited volume and you have to make hard and fast design decisions that flow through the entire design. With the Submarine, how you intended to use it is very important.

Australia's whole thing is a forward defence. That is why we operate our air force out of Butterworth in Malaysia, Thousands of kilometres north of Australia. Our ships frequent ports in South East Asia. Australia is likely to take on operations that takes them directly into other nations waters. The key choke points lay thousands of kilometers north, there are not choke points around Australia in its waters.

Norway, adopts a European style defence, focused on their territorial waters and choke points there in. They are unlikely to taken on Russian subs in Russian waters They want something that can chase away and deter Russian incursions.

Canada needs to make some choices about what it needs and how it wants to operate. While a lot of noise is made about operating under ice, Canada has never had submarines designed to do that. Going from history, a long range conventional submarine would appear to be more inline with history of Canada's use of subs.
The project to procure new submarines will have to consider everything you mentioned and then some. Its going to be a methodical process with high stakes. I think at the end of the day Canada will have a great blue water submarine.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Absolutely correct ngatimozart. AIP is not a "miracle pill" as you say however it may be a critical Canadian requirement for Littoral Ops in the high Arctic for our future submarines. The RCN will be the experts as to what their CONOPs will be for our next submarine fleet. Our process is just beginning where the RAN process is much farther along. We can certainly learn from each other and learn from our mistakes. I have served my country in the RCN for over 41 1/2 years and I think I know much more about CONOPs and OPSEC for both surface and sub-surface Canadian fleets than you may realize. Our submarines have, and will, operate world-wide in the past as well as deep within the Asia/Pacific Regions. To say that Canadian submarine patrols are short in duration compared to RAN patrols is just not true (See Below). By the time Canada makes a final decision as to submarine types, the technology of AIP, LIBs and and solid state fuel cells will have advanced significantly to the point where under-ice operations will be much more feasible. You are correct in that there will be trade-offs for Canadas final submarine design no matter which submarine is chosen. By the way your choice of words "excrement-load" is inappropriate, not within the forum rules and an apology for that remark should be the minimum requirement. Have A Great Navy Day! :)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/thenational...dian-submarine-prowling-the-pacific-1.4512960

https://www.navalassoc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Collins-Submarine-Capabilities.pdf

Standing Senate Committee on National Security & Defence-11th Report-May 08 2017
"Reinvesting in the Canadian Armed Forces-AA Plan For The Future-pgs 35-38 (Recommendation #13)
Recommendation 13:
Commence the procurement process before the end of 2018 to acquire 12 new submarines equipped with air independent propulsion systems, six to be based on each coast.
)-unfortunately the PDF file is too large to send. Please visit the Canadian Senate website.
"unfortunately the PDF file is too large to send." That's bullshit. You can still post the link.

Formal Warning time. The rules state that you are required to provide sources to support your claims / arguments. You repeatedly do not until challenged to do so and getting you to do so is like pulling teeth. You have been on here long enough to know the rules. Awarded 12 demerit points for 1 year.

YOU WILL FOLLOW THE RULES FORTHWITH ON THE PAIN OF IMMEDIATE CONSEQUENCES WITHOUT WARNING.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Norway, adopts a European style defence, focused on their territorial waters and choke points there in. They are unlikely to taken on Russian subs in Russian waters They want something that can chase away and deter Russian incursions.
This is somewhat divorced from the RCN topic, but I would disagree with the notion that RNoN subs would not take on Russian subs in Russian waters. The main RNoN base near Bergen, is only ~1,200 n miles from the mouth of Kola Bay on Russia's Kola Peninsula, which includes much of the Murmansk Oblast, which in turn includes Severomorsk which is where the main administrative base for the Russian Navy's Northern Fleet is located. Also, on the opposite side of the Kola Peninsula, across the White Sea, is the port city of Arkhangelsk. With those distances, as well as the potential importance of Russian bases in the area, I could see RNoN subs potentially having missions which take them into Russian waters for a variety of reasons. One example would be Norwegian subs attempting to 'pen in' Russian subs and surface vessels, in the event that there was an outbreak of hostilities.

Imagine the sort of havoc that could be caused if a vessel entering or attempting to leave the Kola Bay hit a mine and was badly damaged or sank, and it was subsequently revealed that the mine had a plate stamped with;

"Сделано в СССР"

This would be particularly bad if it was something left behind or moved by a RNoN sub...
 
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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I am not aware of the existing Ula class conducting ops in Russian waters.

The timing of the class wasn't ideal, as it coincided with the breakup of the Soviet union. The Ula class is very small barely a 1000t, and has limited range, and unless you are going in a very direct route, even at ~1200Nm is likely to be a long journey. Particularly on the way back fighting the cape current. There is limited opportunity to resupply. Maybe they did, but they aren't building exactly the same submarine again.

But the idea if penning in and tabbing, acoustically mapping, etc is very real. No doubt the newer 212CD submarines would be ideal in that kind of operation, with nearly double the range, this allows much ambitious mission planning. AIP would be ideal for these submarines and the swift current will be able to use to help them get to useful destinations at the start of the mission.

Australia has made public the use of its conventional submarines operating in Cam Ranh, and openly talked about operations in India, Indonesia and China, its rumored they operated as far north as Vladivostok. They regularly operate in Hawaii, which is 10,000+ km.

Link:Cold war exploits of Australia’s secret submarines

While getting information on submarine operations is difficult, for the RAN, performing surveillance it often means being a periscope depth. AIP is wasted tech if you are going to be operating in 12 feet below the surface listening and collecting.

Using submarines as a more forward operating asset seems to be highly advantageous, and conventional submarines can certainly conduct those kind of missions. If your going to invest in submarines, IMO it seems logical that you acquire something that allows you to use them in opposing territorial waters.

As you mentioned, there are options that would cause dramatic damage, and you don't even have to fire a torpedo to achieve it.
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

Active Member
"unfortunately the PDF file is too large to send." That's bullshit. You can still post the link.

Formal Warning time. The rules state that you are required to provide sources to support your claims / arguments. You repeatedly do not until challenged to do so and getting you to do so is like pulling teeth. You have been on here long enough to know the rules. Awarded 12 demerit points for 1 year.

YOU WILL FOLLOW THE RULES FORTHWITH ON THE PAIN OF IMMEDIATE CONSEQUENCES WITHOUT WARNING.
Sorry I didn't think to link the PDF file at the time. Here is the link:

 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
The Norwegians built a submarine base near Tromso, it was very secret squirrel stuff, it was built in secret, it cost a fortune. It could accommodate SSN's and SSBN's on external piers, the Norwegian subs could park inside. The base was sold in 2009, it's now been repurchased by Kongsberg and is back being used by the military. Ironically the Russians rented the base and operated some research vessels from it.

Olavsvern - Wikipedia

1603004666_standard-olavsvern-02-eh-1602705440.jpeg
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
@Preceptor has permanently banned David Dunlop because of the posters unacceptable response to my warning above and at his own request. He messaged a third Moderator with a rant, the contents of which are the unacceptable part. The point that the we want to make is that this is a professionally run defence forum and that we have a set of rules that we expect all to follow.

David Dunlop raised the point about my use of the word "bullshit" in my reply to his post saying that he found it highly offensive. He claims to have spent 41 years in the RCN and retired as a Senior Rate (SNCO) so he would have been well used to such language and much stronger. Also it is a word that is very much used by Kiwis and Australians, and we do have a habit of telling it as it is. However, in retrospect I should not have used it and I withdraw and apologise.
 

Git_Kraken

Active Member
Not the Senate, it was the NDP - Jack Layton - that called them slush breakers.
It's a common misconception that the "slush breaker" label started with the Senate because Liberal Senator Colin Kenny took it and ran with it in -every-single- interview-he-had. And of course on the senate committee on Defence. He was extremely vocal about it.

Of course anyone who has seen the posted videos (on this thread) with HDW breaking ice would see the ice they are going through is 1.2m or so. Not sure about anyone else but that's a far way from slush.

Also if anyone has ever read anything about Senator Kenny he has literally no concept of naval operations thinking of them in terms of police car chases apparently. It's sad when your defence allies are defence morons.
 

Preceptor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Members are indeed welcome to have their own opinion on things. It is also very possible for a member to have and express their own opinions while still staying within the Forum Rules. One of the things members aren't permitted to do, is assert their opinion on something as being a fact, when it's actually an opinion. Members are also required to provide proof to substantiate their claims. Asking others to prove a statement or claim is false is an attempt to shift the burden of proof away from the claimant, when it an obligation of the claimant to substantiate their claims.

David Dunlop repeatedly failed to substantiate claims made, and/or stated a personal opinion as a fact. As a result of such posting behavior, which is against the
Forum Rules #23 linked to previously, the former member was repeatedly warned against continuing such posting behavior. It is also worth noting that DefenceTalk is an international defence forum, with members from across the globe.

David Dunlop's posting behavior was considered problematic by at least three members of the Mod Team, each from a different nation and on a different continent. What I personally find rather ironic is that he referenced being active on other forums without a problem provided posters didn't use profanity and substantiated their posts, while either ignoring or being oblivious to his history of repeatedly failing to substantiate his posts.


A thought for members to consider. If members have a problem with being on a forum with forum rules that place the burden of proof on the party making a claim and then being called out by other members and/or the Mod Team for failing to substantiate claims made, DefenceTalk might not be the forum for them. This holds for failing to abide by the rest of the forum rules as well, regardless of what members' prior services might have been, or how many articles they might have written or contributed to in defence periodicals.

Lastly, I invite members who have issues with how posts are moderated by an international team of volunteers to re-read the
Forum Rules #'s 29 & 30 and follow them, rather than make a complaint in the public forum. Failing to heed those two Forum Rules, or encouraging others to ignore them, gives the impression that they feel they don't need to follow the rules.
-Preceptor
 
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shadow99

Member
Frontline Defence FrontLine Defence | FrontLine Defence Magazine Canada has a good article - The Reworking of North Atlantic Defence, An Overview of the New Second Fleet Command. and from the article "So how did the U.S. Second Fleet end up with a Canadian Vice Commander?

Also on interest the last page in the pdf mentions "Vice-Admiral Mark Norman, Former Canadian Vice-Chief of Defence, recently joined Samuel Associates, a consulting agency specializing in govt relations for aerospace, defence, and national security.
 

Git_Kraken

Active Member
Those are waters that no frigate would ever go into. Even those smaller bits of ice could have ice inclusions that would put a hole in their hull. This time of year is about as ice-free as the arctic gets. HDW doing the business for sure.

I have it on good authority that Arctic communities are extremely excited to meet this ship (good friend is sailing onboard and emails me about the trip regularly). Its also opening the eyes of some sailors from southern Canada to just how poor these communities are.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
To our Canadian friends on this forum .... how has the "AUKUS" announcement been covered by the Canadian media, military analysts and your politicians?

As the RCN operates submarines that will need replacing ... could a future Canadian government (as presumably the current Trudeau government won't) potentially join this new alliance (CAUKUS?) and also acquire US nuclear submarine technology? Has there been any chatter yet?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
So far, minimal reporting, mainly due to media not giving a rat’s a$$ about defence unless it is to bitch about cost overruns and foul ups on procurement. Also, with an election next week, pollies of all strips don’t want to step on defence issues and have to scrap stuff off their shoes.

WRT this agreement, I think it is clear none of three countries feel Canada has anything to offer. Our dismissal performance in renewing defence assets during the last 30 years hardly inspires. Canadian economic performance along with our massive debts further erodes confidence. As far as I know, there was no heads up for junior about this deal, even Jacinda got a call at least.
 
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Vanquish

Member
As @John Fedup mentioned no Federal party will touch the issue of nuclear submarines with the current election underway.

On a personal note I always thought that if Canada could get a deal such as the RAN have, that with not having to deal with how to dispose of the reactor and fuel at the end of the service life of the submarines, that it might then help to make the nuclear option more acceptable to Canadians. After all IMO if the general public could be made to understand much like the Australians that we're not talking about nuclear weapons but rather just nuclear power, I think Canadians could more likely come to accept the idea.

It certainly would be my hope that when Canada finally gets around to admitting it's time to replace the Victoria class that they would be brave enough to at least consider going the nuclear option. I would be very happy if Canada could procure 6 Astute's, even if they came off of a BAE production line.

With all that being said I would hope that AUKUS would allow us into the club at that time should we consider it. CAUKUS works for me.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
As @John Fedup mentioned no Federal party will touch the issue of nuclear submarines with the current election underway.

On a personal note I always thought that if Canada could get a deal such as the RAN have, that with not having to deal with how to dispose of the reactor and fuel at the end of the service life of the submarines, that it might then help to make the nuclear option more acceptable to Canadians. After all IMO if the general public could be made to understand much like the Australians that we're not talking about nuclear weapons but rather just nuclear power, I think Canadians could more likely come to accept the idea.

It certainly would be my hope that when Canada finally gets around to admitting it's time to replace the Victoria class that they would be brave enough to at least consider going the nuclear option. I would be very happy if Canada could procure 6 Astute's, even if they came off of a BAE production line.

With all that being said I would hope that AUKUS would allow us into the club at that time should we consider it. CAUKUS works for me.
The US said the arrangement is a one-off. I think this statement was a message to Canada not to bother asking for membership as the US considers the Canadian sub-surface Arctic to be their stomping ground. This is why they refused a technology transfer by the UK back in the late 1980s for Mulroney’s proposed SSN buy.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
The US said the arrangement is a one-off.
I suspect the message is not for Canada but for Japan. If UK helps Japan acquire nuclear propulsion by tech transfer, Korea will feel left out or vice versa— the Koreans want to build ballistic missile submarines — which is very destabilising for the NE Asia security dynamics, as a pre-nuclear weapons country. IMO Korean insecurity will drive them to go nuclear eventually, which is why the Americans want it to be one-off.

I think this statement was a message to Canada not to bother asking for membership...
I think is unlikely Canada will do so because your country just don’t have the financial muscle to fund this increase in spending required, when Jnr can’t even pull the trigger for F-35As.

Once the actual ‘price’ per submarine emerges, Canadian politicians and their knees will go weak — there are better ways to spend scarce Canadian defence dollars.
 
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