Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

[John Fedup]

AOR is I think only one role of the JSS. They also want it to be able to resupply dry stores and sealift the Canadian Army and use it as a command centre.

I think with JSS they are a victim of too much multi rolling. They could grab a Container ship (or some sort of lease arrangement on one) and a tanker and get a very easy solution. This would free up funds for surface combatants and the Amphibious ship (which they wanted Largs Bay for). It would be better for the Canadian ship building industry imo too.

JSS has been all the color and movement in Canadian procurement, but there's not much of a fleet left to resupply.

Comparing Australia and Canada defence paths is very interesting. Australia had an event that meant it stopped dicking around with polishing turds and went out and got some very serious hardware. 2 first class LHD's, Largs, 3 AWD and is coming up with some sort of path for the frigate replacements and a serious sub project. There are issues, but there is progress.

Canada on the other hand has been gridlocked by indecisiveness, capability growth and investing in money pits and polishing turds to try and save money. Spending ~$400 m on a temporary solution seems wasteful. They would have been better to lease two commercial ships and put that money to a proper amphib.

Canadian military procurement is so constipated there are no turds to polish. Furthermore with inflation eating away the allocated money for new naval ships, there will be fewer ships so maybe only 1 Berlin AOR will get built. When Canada had a 16 surface combatant navy (4 Tribal class destroyers along with 12 Halifax frigates) it only had 2 replenishment ships. The RCN may very well only end up with 6-8 new ships to replace the 12 Halifax frigates and the 1 remaining (barely seaworthy) Tribal destroyer.

 

[John Fedup]

Now that junior is PM and has promised to kill the F-35 in favour of increased naval spending we shall see. Likely result, same $hit.

 

[Volkodav]

Now that junior is PM and has promised to kill the F-35 in favour of increased naval spending we shall see. Likely result, same $hit.

Sorry, so no new fighter at all? All in favour of increased naval capability but a lack of effective airpower will actually degrade naval capability.

 

[John Fedup]

Sorry, so no new fighter at all? All in favour of increased naval capability but a lack of effective airpower will actually degrade naval capability.

Hard to say when and what will happen now with regard to fighters. As for effective air power and naval capability, our ships normally deploy with US carrier groups during blue water operations. Realistically, in home waters there is no aerial threat at present and this will be the case for sometime.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Hard to say when and what will happen now with regard to fighters. As for effective air power and naval capability, our ships normally deploy with US carrier groups during blue water operations. Realistically, in home waters there is no aerial threat at present and this will be the case for sometime.

Liberals Win Canadian Vote; May Drop F-35 Program

I wonder if they would consider a reduced F-35 buy or a delay buy instead, but even that seems unlikely. I think its certainly a possibility that Canada may be without an effective fighter.

The other potential contenders to replace Canada’s CF-18s are the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Dassault Rafale, Boeing’s Super Hornet and Saab’s Gripen

I don't know if a Typhoon would be any cheaper, or a Superhornet would be much cheaper including operational costs (not cheap enough to fund a significant navy).

Rafale and Gripen?

 

[ngatimozart]

Liberals Win Canadian Vote; May Drop F-35 Program

I wonder if they would consider a reduced F-35 buy or a delay buy instead, but even that seems unlikely. I think its certainly a possibility that Canada may be without an effective fighter.



I don't know if a Typhoon would be any cheaper, or a Superhornet would be much cheaper including operational costs (not cheap enough to fund a significant navy).

Rafale and Gripen?

Don't think the Rafale is that cheap either. I think it is of similar price to the Typhoon and definitely a lot more than the Hornets. I would think the Hornet prices would be in the region of US$20 million less than than the Rafale, and most definitely the Typhoon. I don't know if the Gripen will be the ideal platform for Canada because of its short legs. I am aware that the Gripen E is supposed to have a range increase of around 20% over the C variant.

 

[Todjaeger]

Hard to say when and what will happen now with regard to fighters. As for effective air power and naval capability, our ships normally deploy with US carrier groups during blue water operations. Realistically, in home waters there is no aerial threat at present and this will be the case for sometime.

While no current air threat exists, IMO that can easily change and quite rapidly.

With Russia devoting more resources to northern facilities, I can foresee more incursions by Russian aircraft into northern Canadian waters. Especially if the Northwest Passage starts to become open for longer periods of time as the climate changes.

While those incursions would fall under NORAD's area of responsibility, USAF interceptors are not, IMO adequately positioned to handle polar incursions of Canadian airspace. Nor should they be, given that Canada is also responsible for contributing to the defence of North America.

What concerns me though, is they while new threats and potential threats are emerging, the steps which need to be made now in order to have a better positional response to emergent future threats, appear to be getting discarded because there is not a need, "right now..." Meanwhile, the fact that it now can take several years to develop skills and capabilities to properly respond appears to be getting completely ignored.

 

[John Fedup]

While no current air threat exists, IMO that can easily change and quite rapidly.

With Russia devoting more resources to northern facilities, I can foresee more incursions by Russian aircraft into northern Canadian waters. Especially if the Northwest Passage starts to become open for longer periods of time as the climate changes.

While those incursions would fall under NORAD's area of responsibility, USAF interceptors are not, IMO adequately positioned to handle polar incursions of Canadian airspace. Nor should they be, given that Canada is also responsible for contributing to the defence of North America.



What concerns me though, is they while new threats and potential threats are emerging, the steps which need to be made now in order to have a better positional response to emergent future threats, appear to be getting discarded because there is not a need, "right now..." Meanwhile, the fact that it now can take several years to develop skills and capabilities to properly respond appears to be getting completely ignored.

I have often wondered if the US govt should have considered a special F-22 agreement whereby 20 -30 jets could be used by the RCAF in NA only. If USAF F-22s needed to be deployed overseas the RCAF jets could be based wherever in NA. Such an arrangement would have been an easier sell than 65 F-35s even though the overall cost would have been slightly higher.

 

[Delta204]

Here's a link to the Liberal Party's position regarding the F-35 cancellation and the Canadian Navy.

https://www.liberal.ca/realchange/royal-canadian-navy/

While I agree that the position they've taken regarding the F-35 is foolish it is at least encouraging to see that they fully support a capable blue water RCN. With the support the Liberals received on election night from Canada's east coast it would be treacherous for them to abandon the planned shipbuilding programs the previous govt. started.

 

[John Fedup]

Here's a link to the Liberal Party's position regarding the F-35 cancellation and the Canadian Navy.

https://www.liberal.ca/realchange/royal-canadian-navy/

While I agree that the position they've taken regarding the F-35 is foolish it is at least encouraging to see that they fully support a capable blue water RCN. With the support the Liberals received on election night from Canada's east coast it would be treacherous for them to abandon the planned shipbuilding programs the previous govt. started.

The RCN will get an extra converted container ship conversion AOR from Quebec's Davie shipyard. If you are a sailor in the RCN start applying to the RN, USN, RAN, or RNZN as the RCN is doomed now.

 

[Delta204]

Well the planned interim AOR for the RCN is turning into a goat rodeo... rival shipyards have written to the newly elected govt. in protest of the interim AOR contract that was initiated by the previous govt just before the election.

Get this ridiculousness, Seaspan (which won the competition to build the Joint Supply Ship - scheduled for delivery sometime after 2020) is now complaining that it wasn't also considered for the interim AOR... the very ships the RCN urgently needs while it waits for Seaspan to build Queenston Class AOR's!!

The current govt. has apparently stalled the interim AOR project to reconsider its options... they need to handle this carefully, IMO, as each of these setbacks and failures lead to more and more Canadian taxpayers growing frustrated with this shipbuilding strategy. Many I believe are starting to wonder if we just might be better off buying ships overseas.

 

[John Fedup]

Well the planned interim AOR for the RCN is turning into a goat rodeo... rival shipyards have written to the newly elected govt. in protest of the interim AOR contract that was initiated by the previous govt just before the election.

Get this ridiculousness, Seaspan (which won the competition to build the Joint Supply Ship - scheduled for delivery sometime after 2020) is now complaining that it wasn't also considered for the interim AOR... the very ships the RCN urgently needs while it waits for Seaspan to build Queenston Class AOR's!!

The current govt. has apparently stalled the interim AOR project to reconsider its options... they need to handle this carefully, IMO, as each of these setbacks and failures lead to more and more Canadian taxpayers growing frustrated with this shipbuilding strategy. Many I believe are starting to wonder if we just might be better off buying ships overseas.

Junior will screw the RCN and the RCAF. The blue water navy is done IMO. The RCN will morph into something between a bathtub and green water navy.

 

[alexsa]

The RCN will get an extra converted container ship conversion AOR from Quebec's Davie shipyard. If you are a sailor in the RCN start applying to the RN, USN, RAN, or RNZN as the RCN is doomed now.

Having been involved in a lot of conversions..... this will not be an easy task. Good hull selected but you are turning a box boat into and AOR meaning you are really only going to use the hull and 'some' of the main machinery. All electrical systems and FFE in the cargo area will go (need to be intrinsically safe) and you will lose out on some tank capacity.

If it is well managed then it could be OK but if they have not really seriously mapped this out it will get messy. Even well planned major conversions have their 'oh bugger' moments.

The risk is that if the interim AOR works out you will have a 6 year old hull and new systems and tankage and interim could turn into long term.

 

[John Fedup]

Having been involved in a lot of conversions..... this will not be an easy task. Good hull selected but you are turning a box boat into and AOR meaning you are really only going to use the hull and 'some' of the main machinery. All electrical systems and FFE in the cargo area will go (need to be intrinsically safe) and you will lose out on some tank capacity.

If it is well managed then it could be OK but if they have not really seriously mapped this out it will get messy. Even well planned major conversions have their 'oh bugger' moments.

The risk is that if the interim AOR works out you will have a 6 year old hull and new systems and tankage and interim could turn into long term.

This project has been put on hold for evaluation by Junior's new government. Some fools here think this is a prudent review of a questionable acquisition. While I agree this is a questionable project, the true reason for the review is to divert money to junior turdo's socialist BS agenda, e.g 2.5 billion for third world relief from climate change, 1.5 billion (low ball figure) for Syrian refugees. Rest assured, any money saved from not buying the F-35 (and it won't be that much) will be pissed away on similar BS.

 

[t68]

This project has been put on hold for evaluation by Junior's new government. Some fools here think this is a prudent review of a questionable acquisition. While I agree this is a questionable project, the true reason for the review is to divert money to junior turdo's socialist BS agenda, e.g 2.5 billion for third world relief from climate change, 1.5 billion (low ball figure) for Syrian refugees. Rest assured, any money saved from not buying the F-35 (and it won't be that much) will be pissed away on similar BS.

Might be time to move to the land downunder John before you give yourself an ulcer from descions by those who hold power. Beside we need another vocal local to harass our own policy maker into more defence needs.

 

[John Fedup]

Might be time to move to the land downunder John before you give yourself an ulcer from descions by those who hold power. Beside we need another vocal local to harass our own policy maker into more defence needs.

I think your pollies have a much better awareness of defence matters than ours. As for moving downunder, warm weather, good beer, some excellent vineyards, a lot to like!

 

[John Fedup]

The interim supply ship deal with Davie is on again. Not a surprise really, junior was facing pressure from his Quebec supporters and the only other yards (Irving and Seaspan) have enough stuff on the go at the moment. More importantly, the RCN needs this asap as the Berlins from Seaspan won't arrive until 2021 or later.

Ottawa confirms deal for navy supply ship with Quebec’s Davie shipyard - The Globe and Mail

 

[t68]

The interim supply ship deal with Davie is on again. Not a surprise really, junior was facing pressure from his Quebec supporters and the only other yards (Irving and Seaspan) have enough stuff on the go at the moment. More importantly, the RCN needs this asap as the Berlins from Seaspan won't arrive until 2021 or later.

Ottawa confirms deal for navy supply ship with Quebec’s Davie shipyard - The Globe and Mail

Have they already bought the hull/s for this, RAN better be carefull same thing might happen to us as our replacement project seems to be at a standstill.

 

[oldsig127]

Have they already bought the hull/s for this, RAN better be carefull same thing might happen to us as our replacement project seems to be at a standstill.

DSME was signing MOUs with Daewoo/BAE and Navantia as recently as October. Doesn't seem an unduly long period at public service speed

oldsig

 

[t68]

DSME was signing MOUs with Daewoo/BAE and Navantia as recently as October. Doesn't seem an unduly long period at public service speed

oldsig

Ah that's good, I have not not anything but good to see.