Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

Meriv90

Active Member
What about "selling" your F-35 options/planes to ITA/JAP.

We are already in the F-35 Game so it isnt a big difference if we increase the numbers.

In exchange you take on Typhoons or some Older japanese plane that will bring you to the GCAP, and you buy your way in the project.

In place of loosing the order i think LM would be more than compliacent.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
What about "selling" your F-35 options/planes to ITA/JAP.

We are already in the F-35 Game so it isnt a big difference if we increase the numbers.

In exchange you take on Typhoons or some Older japanese plane that will bring you to the GCAP, and you buy your way in the project.

In place of loosing the order i think LM would be more than compliacent.
Not sure about the contractual obligations wrt this option. Used fast jets are not an option given the controversy over the used Hornet deal (unless no other option). Best solution is to keep the F-35 deal and do some serious commitment to GCAP NOW!! If our relationship with the US continues to erode then used/new Gripens or Typhoons with GCAP investment is the alternative....just my two cents.
 

MARKMILES77

Well-Known Member
Confirmation from the Canadian Defence Minister that they are considering other options to buying all the F-35s.
Relevant part from 7:15 into video.
Sounds like Gripen might be in the picture as they offered Canadian manufacture.
Might need a re-engine with a European jet engine.

 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Confirmation from the Canadian Defence Minister that they are considering other options to buying all the F-35s.
Relevant part from 7:15 into video.
Sounds like Gripen might be in the picture as they offered Canadian manufacture.
Might need a re-engine with a European jet engine.

A new engine to avoid US interference?

Gripen needs a lot more than that I am afraid…

IMG_1231.jpeg
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure if this article on some of the myths surrounding the f35 and its source codes help
Certainly Canada is not he only country with concerns
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Confirmation from the Canadian Defence Minister that they are considering other options to buying all the F-35s.
Relevant part from 7:15 into video.
Sounds like Gripen might be in the picture as they offered Canadian manufacture.
Might need a re-engine with a European jet engine.
Gripen was not designed to be highly sovereign and independent in its supply chain. That was never a particular priority for it. If people are talking Gripen its because its cheap to acquire, cheap to operate, it contains US technologies, but those technologies are not particularly sensitive. Brazil, Thailand (who also has F-16), Czech (F-35 ordered and armed trainers), Hungary, South Africa, these countries are looking for a solution that meets their need of a cheaper western fighter often as a second type of fighter. Their needs aren't ultra high end, many have another platform for that.

The French Rafale is more legitimate, mostly because France, Frances view of its own capabilities and France wants to independently sell that platform and not have any significant US interference on that front, and sell as a direct competitor with US platforms.

Egypt, Qatar, India AF, India Navy, Greece, Croatia, Indonesia, UAE etc.. Often while they also operate other fighters, the Rafale tends to be the high end mix of that.

If Canada is serious, then it should look at perhaps an additional buy of a different aircraft and reduction of F-35 acquisition. Realistically it is too late to cancel its F-35 program completely, but it could be curtailed. It could vet the Rafale acquisition on what that would look like, production avalibility, etc. For other reasons, it may be interested in joining future European aircraft platform development.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Gripen was not designed to be highly sovereign and independent in its supply chain. That was never a particular priority for it. If people are talking Gripen its because its cheap to acquire, cheap to operate, it contains US technologies, but those technologies are not particularly sensitive. Brazil, Thailand (who also has F-16), Czech (F-35 ordered and armed trainers), Hungary, South Africa, these countries are looking for a solution that meets their need of a cheaper western fighter often as a second type of fighter. Their needs aren't ultra high end, many have another platform for that.

The French Rafale is more legitimate, mostly because France, Frances view of its own capabilities and France wants to independently sell that platform and not have any significant US interference on that front, and sell as a direct competitor with US platforms.

Egypt, Qatar, India AF, India Navy, Greece, Croatia, Indonesia, UAE etc.. Often while they also operate other fighters, the Rafale tends to be the high end mix of that.

If Canada is serious, then it should look at perhaps an additional buy of a different aircraft and reduction of F-35 acquisition. Realistically it is too late to cancel its F-35 program completely, but it could be curtailed. It could vet the Rafale acquisition on what that would look like, production avalibility, etc. For other reasons, it may be interested in joining future European aircraft platform development.
Agree, a F-35 reduction rather than cancellation is the likely option at present. A Rafale option with production in Quebec....a political blackhole. GCAP seems a better option than FCAS for the distant future.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
The Rafale is believed to be significantly more expensive than the f-35 ,a question might be why originally was the f35 prefered over other the other contenders if they could not meet those needs of Canada then why now , certainly Japans FX fighter program could also be worth a look at but Japan is limiting its export to countries who purchase other equipment from it like Australia likely to buy frigates
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The Rafale is believed to be significantly more expensive than the f-35 ,a question might be why originally was the f35 prefered over other the other contenders if they could not meet those needs of Canada then why now , certainly Japans FX fighter program could also be worth a look at but Japan is limiting its export to countries who purchase other equipment from it like Australia likely to buy frigates
France withdrew from the competition because there was no realistic positive outcome for them. Rafale wasn't NORAD compatible (neither were other non US bidders) and are indeed more costly than F-35s. Assuming Trump doesn't hold up the 16 F-35s already ordered, I think another order for 20-25 will happen but that could be it. Additional future jets will be GCAP or FCAS.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well nothing high end is cheap.. F-35 is cheap for the capability it offers. You can certainly spend more on less capable. But if sovereignty and Independence is important then that overrides cost.

I find the idea that Canada wants to have its own sovereign capabilities over and above what the F-35 has is, somewhat amusing. Canada is arguably the country most tied into the USA, at every level for 70+ years. Breaking that would require more than just another fighter jet. Canada doesn't have a lot of military capabilities full stop. So lifting from below zero to a completely sovereign and independently capable force, capable of pushing against the US is a huge ideological concept, I'm not sure they understand.

For Australia as an example, Timor and Interfet didn't fit in with US policy. So while US troops didn't turn up in timor on the ground, we still got logistics, intelligence, and the USN sent a whole cruiser to lead the maritime taskforce. And an amphibious group in the wings to deploy if things went worse. Which is when we really realized the US isn't a private milita that does what ever is asked, it forms its own judgments. Funny enough jumping head long into a civil conflict in South East Asia wasn't something they were interested in. But Australia was also in perhaps using F-18 to shoot down or deter Indonesian F-16s. Greece and Turkey, both nato, both want to fight each other. Dual fleets, or a single fleet with custom capabilities is expensive. You end up with less capability.

So in that case, F35 is fine. You would actually have to be fighting against US wishes and actually have a US policy which specifically inhibits your actions. I presume strong enough to make them make a hard firm decision, but not so hard as to want to fight you for it.

Canada and Europe seem to me like they have this child like innocence of the world. Which probably reflects their geopolitical bubble.

Is Canada really preparing to defend Greenland from the US taking it, even if Denmark capitulates? What is the scenario Canada needs full sovereign capabilities against the US? And are they prepare to fund it, and fight it, in human life and equipment?
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Im not sure there is a claim that Canada even though a member of N.A.T.O is going to defend Greenland against an American invasion Im not sure what the E.U would do in that situation certainly Greenlands indigenous population would apparently want more contact with Canadas
It seems more than likely that Greenlands wealth in strategic rare minerals is what prompts these U.S overtures
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
It's very tricky for Canada. Trump is clearly expressing a strong wish to annex Canada, and it seems nobody in his administration is arguing against this. The situation may not change in four years since trump seems to be in the process of dismantling democratic processes to stay in power. Thus, in spite of the long historical ties with the US, Canada should adapt to the new situation and sooner rather than later. Trump still does not have full control of the US military so there is a window of opportunity for Canada.

The F-35 is the best fighter jet available, no doubt about it. But if the US inf the future is considering to invade it may not be optimal for Canada to operate F-35 only.

Rafale would probably be the "safest" choice to complement the F-35, and also the quickest to get in place. The French have in the past been very flexible and shown they can act fast, for instance Greece got some Rafale very rapidly, by transferring Rafale from the French Air Force to Greece while new ones were being manufactured. The first batch was delivered six months after signing the contract! DASSAULT AVIATION delivers its first Rafale to Greece - Press kits

Dassault has expanded manufacturing capacity, and are ready to expand further if more Rafale orders are coming in. India and France Finalize $7.6 Billion Deal for 26 Rafale M Fighter Jets – Aviacionline

Ukraine started flying Mirage 2000 after six months of training... not enough to become proficient (that will take years) but it seems enough to reach a basic level. Ukrainian Pilots Reportedly Completed Training on Mirage 2000-5F - The Aviationist

Thus my recommendation for Canada would be to reduce the F-35 order to a minimum (say, 20-30) and rush order 40-50 Rafale to complement the F-35. Operating two fighter jets is of course expensive, however, it needs to be compared to the cost of an invasion, and a country like Canada should be able to afford operating two types. Smaller countries threatened by larger seem to often increase defense spending to 4-5% of GDP, or even higher if the threat seems imminent and real. It seems now Canada spends around 1.37%; ($41 billion) if this is increased, say, 3-fold, to $120 billion it would open up some opportunities. Greece paid $3.9 billion for 24 Rafale (12 second-hand but still quite new), all included.

If the trump family fails to keep the power after 4 years and is forced out of the WH then things may return to "normal" between Canada and the US; if they return to normal then Canada could cut their losses by selling Rafale to one of the many countries that could be interested (potentially Greece, India, Indonesia, Egypt, etc.) and buy more F-35. However if the US continue on the current trajectory Canada should consider joining either the French/German/Spanish fighter development project, or the UK/Italian/Japanese.

Regarding Gripen and Colombia; Saab has denied the rumor that the US blocked sales of Gripen to Colombia. Saab denies US veto on sale of Gripen fighter jet to Colombia - Air Data News
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Realistically, I don't think any alternative jet can arrive in reasonable quantities any time soon. The current order of 88 (16 already purchased), is likely going to be reduced. As I have mentioned before, aim for 50% and make firm commitments to non-US designs and budget for this. Failing this, immediately invest in army kit with solutions that maximize the need for body bags for our former friend.
 

Vivendi

Well-Known Member
Looking at how things rapidly keep moving in the wrong direction; I would actually recommend to limit the F-35 purchase to a minimum and try to get as many Rafale as possible as soon as possible. There are ways to accelerate if one is willing to push hard for it. For instance getting 12-18 directly from France, this might be possible in 6 months after signing a contract. In addition I believe several countries in the Middle East have ordered Rafale as a political insurance not because there is a real military need. Working with France it could be that some of them could be convinced to postpone their Rafale deliveries and hugely accelerate Rafale deliveries to Canada.

Or course Canada needs to do much more, like investing heavily in drones, air defence, more soldiers, more ammo, etc. etc. Go to 5% now, before it's too late. And get onboard with one of the European "5.5 gen" fighter jet development efforts.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Interesting articles suggesting on Canada on acquiring this technology would be useful but where to point it lol
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
The details of the siting of this radar installation are pretty vague down here ,I understand its aimed at the artic ,and is likely to be able to see into Russia to some degree ,Australia also has put some work into Surface Wave Radar that is also used here ,is there any detailed info yet
 

Sender

Active Member
The details of the siting of this radar installation are pretty vague down here ,I understand its aimed at the artic ,and is likely to be able to see into Russia to some degree ,Australia also has put some work into Surface Wave Radar that is also used here ,is there any detailed info yet
According to CDR, it will be sited well south of the Arctic, somewhere in Southwestern Ontario, so it will not have to deal with the extremes of temperature found further North. However, because of the vastness of the area to be surveilled, and the fidelity required to track hypersonics, there may be more than one site. This is all so new that there is very little public information available yet. This project is not new though, it was included in the Defence Update last year, and the concept of a northern approaches radar system upgrade has been in the defence procurement plan since 2017. All this falls under the umbrella of NORAD modernization.



 
Last edited:

Sender

Active Member
I too would like to see an explanation of why we chose Australian technology over our own home grown solution. I have no issue with Australian Defence Tech, if it's the best solution, but this company seems to offer a similar solution, and has a pedigree of international customers.


 
Top