Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

[t68]

CASR has an article discussing the possibility of a joint Canadian-Danish purchase of Typhoons. As usual, obsolete information concerning F-35 pricing is used to discredit this jet while no mention is made that the Typhoon only now is getting its first AESA radar. While exchange is an issue, even with the high US dollar, I have not seen any pricing for Typhoon that gets near the current 90-95m US for a F-35. No mention of stealth, sensor fusion, or its massive internal fuel load advantages. Oh...and hears the kicker....they could be assembled by Bombardier in Montreal, like that's going to decrease costs. LMFAO

Canadian Fighter Aircraft - Eurofighter Typhoon - Next Generation Fighter Capability - CASR Modest Proposal - Canadian American Strategic Review - NGFC Project - CF-18 Hornet - F-35 Affordability - Canadian Defence - NATO Cooperation - Danish Defence

Well that's interesting considering the current exchange rate from CAD-USD=$0.77 & CAD-EUR=€0.68
AUD-USD=$0.73

If my math is correct that's a $10,000 in every million. If you take the Australian estimate of an average aircraft cost alone of $75m aircraft alone that's $750000 towards your support costs alone with the exchange rate
9 billion was always never going to be on the money when you include support costs

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-23/australia-to-buy-58-more-joint-strike-fighters/5405236

 

[Todjaeger]

CASR has an article discussing the possibility of a joint Canadian-Danish purchase of Typhoons. As usual, obsolete information concerning F-35 pricing is used to discredit this jet while no mention is made that the Typhoon only now is getting its first AESA radar. While exchange is an issue, even with the high US dollar, I have not seen any pricing for Typhoon that gets near the current 90-95m US for a F-35. No mention of stealth, sensor fusion, or its massive internal fuel load advantages. Oh...and hears the kicker....they could be assembled by Bombardier in Montreal, like that's going to decrease costs. LMFAO

Canadian Fighter Aircraft - Eurofighter Typhoon - Next Generation Fighter Capability - CASR Modest Proposal - Canadian American Strategic Review - NGFC Project - CF-18 Hornet - F-35 Affordability - Canadian Defence - NATO Cooperation - Danish Defence

Actually what I would be more concerned about, is the availability of standoff and CAS or strike munitions. As I understand it, Tranche III should start introducing such munitions so that the Typhoon can have the multi-role capability that the RCAF has already had with the existing Hornets.

Also of concern with respect to a Typhoon buy, is whether any of the existing Canadian munitions could be utilized, and if so, how much would it cost? Given that the Typhoon is a Euro design, I doubt most US munitions would have been prioritized by the manufacturer for integration and clearance for deployment. At least, not with a customer specifying said munitions and paying for the integration, testing, etc.

 

[John Fedup]

Actually what I would be more concerned about, is the availability of standoff and CAS or strike munitions. As I understand it, Tranche III should start introducing such munitions so that the Typhoon can have the multi-role capability that the RCAF has already had with the existing Hornets.

Also of concern with respect to a Typhoon buy, is whether any of the existing Canadian munitions could be utilized, and if so, how much would it cost? Given that the Typhoon is a Euro design, I doubt most US munitions would have been prioritized by the manufacturer for integration and clearance for deployment. At least, not with a customer specifying said munitions and paying for the integration, testing, etc.

The other Euro contender, although Quebec compatible, is even less compatible with regards to weapons currently in stock. Neither jet will be purchased IMO. The contest will be between the F-35 and Superhornet (with some Growlers). The current election is too close to call at the moment so a minority government is likely. It will be difficult to get any agreement on a selection with such an outcome anytime soon.

 

[RobWilliams]

Actually what I would be more concerned about, is the availability of standoff and CAS or strike munitions. As I understand it, Tranche III should start introducing such munitions so that the Typhoon can have the multi-role capability that the RCAF has already had with the existing Hornets.

Yeah, I cringed when I read that Typhoon was a fully multirole aircraft. It just isn't, but that's driven by only the UK and Saudi Arabia currently being interested in enhancing A2G capability.

Saudi are particularly keen, on one day Paveway IV got announced as being integrated and then on the next the RSAF were dropping them in Yemen.

Also of concern with respect to a Typhoon buy, is whether any of the existing Canadian munitions could be utilized, and if so, how much would it cost? Given that the Typhoon is a Euro design, I doubt most US munitions would have been prioritized by the manufacturer for integration and clearance for deployment. At least, not with a customer specifying said munitions and paying for the integration, testing, etc.

There's not a whole lot that Typhoon can carry which is in Canadian service apart from the basic AAMs and a couple guided bombs (some Paveway/JDAM variants).

Someone's pushing to get SBD II onto it.

 

[John Fedup]

Yeah, I cringed when I read that Typhoon was a fully multirole aircraft. It just isn't, but that's driven by only the UK and Saudi Arabia currently being interested in enhancing A2G capability.

Saudi are particularly keen, on one day Paveway IV got announced as being integrated and then on the next the RSAF were dropping them in Yemen.



There's not a whole lot that Typhoon can carry which is in Canadian service apart from the basic AAMs and a couple guided bombs (some Paveway/JDAM variants).

Someone's pushing to get SBD II onto it.

Like I said, I don't think either Euro option is likely to happen. However, the best way for an anti-F-35 government to promote the Typhoon as a true interceptor for Canadian sovereignty operations only. Easy for them as they don't really believe in NATO commitments anyway. The Typhoon AFAIK is a decent interceptor but for Canadian multi role operations the F-35 would be better and likely less expensive in the long run and more benificial to Canadian aerospace companies.

 

[rockitten]

Like I said, I don't think either Euro option is likely to happen. However, the best way for an anti-F-35 government to promote the Typhoon as a true interceptor for Canadian sovereignty operations only. Easy for them as they don't really believe in NATO commitments anyway. The Typhoon AFAIK is a decent interceptor but for Canadian multi role operations the F-35 would be better and likely less expensive in the long run and more benificial to Canadian aerospace companies.

I am surprised the "french Canada" didn't proposed the Rafale.

 

[John Fedup]

I am surprised the "french Canada" didn't proposed the Rafale.

You can bet Dassault and Bombardier would like that option. Bombardier is a whore operation so the Typhoon group will be just as welcome.

 

[swerve]

"Whore operation"? Same as any other commercial firm. It'll sell whatever sells, & bid for any work that's going. Do you think any other aircraft maker would turn down work?

 

[Delta204]

For the strategic circamstances what would the bare minimum number of aircraft purchased, do you need a one for one considering the advances in simulation.

If we go with the planned number of 65 fighters, here's how they'd likely be used.

~35 would be committed to meeting Canada's NORAD obligations
~15 would likely be in deep maintenance / training&certification

leaving the RCAF with ~15 fighters MAXIMUM that could be deployed for international operations on any given day... so there's not a lot of wiggle room especially when you consider attrition rates ect.

I've read one commentator who described Canada's usage of airpower as "six pack diplomacy" whenever NATO or other multinational group decides to undertake a bombing campaign Canada shows up with it's token half dozen fighters... like someone who gets invited to a house party would show up with a six pack - just enough for people to see that they at least made an appearance.

Anyway, things will be more clear after the election on Monday... the Liberal Party (currently polling in the lead) has stated they would cancel the F-35 acquisition in favor of a more affordable option - whatever that may be.

 

[John Fedup]

If we go with the planned number of 65 fighters, here's how they'd likely be used.

~35 would be committed to meeting Canada's NORAD obligations
~15 would likely be in deep maintenance / training&certification

leaving the RCAF with ~15 fighters MAXIMUM that could be deployed for international operations on any given day... so there's not a lot of wiggle room especially when you consider attrition rates ect.

I've read one commentator who described Canada's usage of airpower as "six pack diplomacy" whenever NATO or other multinational group decides to undertake a bombing campaign Canada shows up with it's token half dozen fighters... like someone who gets invited to a house party would show up with a six pack - just enough for people to see that they at least made an appearance.

Anyway, things will be more clear after the election on Monday... the Liberal Party (currently polling in the lead) has stated they would cancel the F-35 acquisition in favor of a more affordable option - whatever that may be.

6-8 fighters maximum for international operations regardless of what we buy. The election will most likely result in minority gov't so no jet decision will happen until a follow-up election or put another way, no purchase this decade.

 

[Joe Black]

So the election result is out and the Liberal will form government. Does this mean no F35s?

Hello to Super Hornets and Growlers!???

 

[t68]

So the election result is out and the Liberal will form government. Does this mean no F35s?

Hello to Super Hornets and Growlers!???

I see a reduced order of F35A under the reality of work share for the program, but how low the go is the question.

 

[ngatimozart]

So the election result is out and the Liberal will form government. Does this mean no F35s?

Hello to Super Hornets and Growlers!???

Will depend on what they are told by their govt advisors and treasury regarding the full economic cost to the economy if they cancel the F35s. They would have to base that on losing the F35 work share. I think that has to be a given because the other partner nations will want that work for themselves if Canada pulls out and their argument old be quite valid because why should Canada reap the rewards without taking any of the risk and participating in the program.

 

[John Fedup]

So the election result is out and the Liberal will form government. Does this mean no F35s?

Hello to Super Hornets and Growlers!???

Depends on whether frigging junior is a liar or an idiot. It is likely the latter. This country started its decline with his old man.

 

[John Fedup]

Will depend on what they are told by their govt advisors and treasury regarding the full economic cost to the economy if they cancel the F35s. They would have to base that on losing the F35 work share. I think that has to be a given because the other partner nations will want that work for themselves if Canada pulls out and their argument old be quite valid because why should Canada reap the rewards without taking any of the risk and participating in the program.

The loss of F-35 contracts will be of no concern to junior as he will not suffer politically. He has painted himself into a corner with his "no F-35" stance. Even if realizes the the F-35 is the way to go he would not want the "liar" label as part of his legacy by reversing his non-choice.

 

[Ranger25]

The loss of F-35 contracts will be of no concern to junior as he will not suffer politically. He has painted himself into a corner with his "no F-35" stance. Even if realizes the the F-35 is the way to go he would not want the "liar" label as part of his legacy by reversing his non-choice.

No doubt casts amount in F35 participation. IMO the decision can be delayed, privately if not publicly until at least 2017 when LRIP9 is schedules to deliver the first four RCAF F35s. Given the delays, LRIP9 may not go until 2018 so I think it could be publicly delayed as a campaign promise with the MOD makes figure tee assessment of needs to replace its F18s



.

 

[John Fedup]

No doubt casts amount in F35 participation. IMO the decision can be delayed, privately if. It publicly until at least 2017 when LRIP9 is schedules to deliver the first four RCAF F35s. Given the delays, LRIP9 may not go until 2018 so I think it could be publicly delayed as a campaign promise with the MOD makes figure tee assessment of needs to replace its F18s.

It would take a threat of mass resignation by Senior RCAF officers to change Junior's mind and even that probably wouldn't be enough. The mass resignation protest would be just as unlikely.

 

[ngatimozart]

It would take a threat of mass resignation by Senior RCAF officers to change Junior's mind and even that probably wouldn't be enough. The mass resignation protest would be just as unlikely.

Well I see that he is recalling the RCAF strike contribution to the anti Daesh coalition. Six F18 Hornets I believe.

 

[t68]

Well I see that he is recalling the RCAF strike contribution to the anti Daesh coalition. Six F18 Hornets I believe.

You would not have a link to that by chance?

Cheers

 

[vonnoobie]

Not having any real insight into Canadian politics except that the newest PM is anti F-35 is the new selection process to rule it out entirely or merely bring in some alternatives? Is he also anything like our former PM Tony Abbott in making captain's calls?

If he is willing to sit aside and let the best product put forth (capability and cost) be chosen then the F-35 may still happen, Though if the F-35 doesn't happen I'd imagine the SH is the most likely successor having similarities with the Classics, already in us with the US etc and leaves open option to acquire the Growler.