Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[t68]

Yes, I think it would be like the Anzac frigate negotiations between Au and NZ all over again. Weren't they originally going to take 4?

Yep that's right 2 with 2 options. I imagine a debate will be going on internally along the same lines as the Anzac debate for the future frigate just like here in oz.

ChapterÂ*2.Â*The ANZACS, Part 1—The Frigate that wasn’t a Frigate

 

[ngatimozart]

Yep that's right 2 with 2 options. I imagine a debate will be going on internally along the same lines as the Anzac debate for the future frigate just like here in oz.

ChapterÂ*2.Â*The ANZACS, Part 1—The Frigate that wasn’t a Frigate

Ah Timing is Everything by Greener. A worthwhile read that.

 

[hauritz]

I am not sure NZ is in the market for a 7000 ton frigate. I don't think that attitudes towards building frigates and other warships has changed that much over the years.

I wouldn't be surprised if the NZ Anzacs were replaced with OPVs. In fact NZ is probably a bigger chance of joining Australia's OPV program than its frigate building program.

 

[Volkodav]

Interesting that NZ was anticipating a unit cost of NZ$300m for each of the four originally proposed ANZACs as the final vessel of the class, HMAS PERTH, came in at about A$100m in the mid 2000s meaning the final pair of NZ ships, had they been ordered would have cost a similar amount. I know the NZ$ was lower than the A$ at the time but not by that much and NZ did have a very reasonable share of the production investments and I wonder if a final pair of ANZACs may actually have worked out cheaper than the OPVs.

 

[Stampede]

I could go on, but I won't!

Bagettes? No!

Schnitzel? No!

For me it's Sushi!!!

Cheers,

Thanks John

I like Sushi as well, and although I've not being to the Greek Islands I'm sure it's it nice place. Maybe I could take a look at the Hellenic Type 209 and 214 Subs while I'm sunning myself in a part of the world not full of some of our major trading partners.
What ever merits of the Soryu and assumptions of maturity of international trading relations and expectations, I cannot help but feel there will be a geopolitical tax going with Plan J.

All that said; and I will say no more on the subject other than if we go with Japan for SEA 1000 I would like nothing better than to be WRONG!
In a couple of decades time when our new submarine fleet has taken shape I would like nothing more than a successful submarine building program regardless of my feelings in 2016.
Always difficult to crystal ball the future but I would suggest North Asia will be a less certain and stable region in 2036 and that could go many ways.
Plan J will always be more that just a submarine acquisition.

Best wishes Regards S

Ps Not a fan of Wasabi!

 

[ASSAIL]

Thanks John

I like Sushi as well, and although I've not being to the Greek Islands I'm sure it's it nice place. Maybe I could take a look at the Hellenic Type 209 and 214 Subs while I'm sunning myself in a part of the world not full of some of our major trading partners.
What ever merits of the Soryu and assumptions of maturity of international trading relations and expectations, I cannot help but feel there will be a geopolitical tax going with Plan J.

All that said; and I will say no more on the subject other than if we go with Japan for SEA 1000 I would like nothing better than to be WRONG!
In a couple of decades time when our new submarine fleet has taken shape I would like nothing more than a successful submarine building program regardless of my feelings in 2016.
Always difficult to crystal ball the future but I would suggest North Asia will be a less certain and stable region in 2036 and that could go many ways.
Plan J will always be more that just a submarine acquisition.

Best wishes Regards S

Ps Not a fan of Wasabi!

You are way to sensitive IMHO.
The strategic imperative of option J is self evident and will be embraced by both Japan and the US the source of a vast majority of our defence capability.

We should not be concerned with China, they don't seem to be concerned when contravening international law in building islands and arming them in the SCS. They are the ultimate pragmatists, they need Aust resources and services and we need their markets. We have made great headway in supporting institutions such as the Asian Development Bank, FTAs and Chinese Investments in this country, arrangements that are important to them and with far more import than the country of origin of our submarines.
Off course they will show annoyance but these other cooperative arrangements have far greater economic and political clout and the sensitivity will soon pass.

 

[StingrayOZ]

China won't have much to stand on, it's not like we are Taiwan. You start acting like a jerk, you wear the situation.

I doubt many of our other nearby neighbours will worry either. Quite a few will welcome it.

Japan and Australia working as good friends also sets up a template for other nations banding together across Asia.

 

[Richo99]

sorry...duplicate post

 

[Richo99]

ABC online reporting that the DWP will be released by the PM on Thursday....I don't expect it to be a very productive day at work for me!

 

[gf0012-aust]

ABC online reporting that the DWP will be released by the PM on Thursday....I don't expect it to be a very productive day at work for me!

12 subs is on.

I'll be going to work early on Thurs.....

 

[old faithful]

I expect there will be a large recruiting campaign in a few years "join the Navy, sea the world, via sonar!"
12 Subs is great news, I guess they have informally selected the platform, and the location /s of the build?

 

[Bluey 006]

I expect there will be a large recruiting campaign in a few years "join the Navy, sea the world, via sonar!"
12 Subs is great news, I guess they have informally selected the platform, and the location /s of the build?

The White Paper...! Finally........ More exciting than Christmas.
Interested to see how this 25 Billion investment in Cyber and Electronic warfare is detailed

 

[ASSAIL]

I expect there will be a large recruiting campaign in a few years "join the Navy, sea the world, via sonar!"
12 Subs is great news, I guess they have informally selected the platform, and the location /s of the build?

I would hope that there are plans to home port some of the subs back to FBE - eventually - even if it were a couple of the older hulls. This ensures some continuity in ASW training for both skimmers and combined training with air assets.

I haven't thought through whether East coast basing would be a strategic advantage but I suspect that it complicates the location problem for the opposition.

 

[t68]

I welcome the reinvestment in Navy, but have to wonder about the unnamed source the Daily Telegraph who claims Army is in good condition. I wonder what standards they are basing that on?

 

[Volkodav]

I would hope that there are plans to home port some of the subs back to FBE - eventually - even if it were a couple of the older hulls. This ensures some continuity in ASW training for both skimmers and combined training with air assets.

I haven't thought through whether East coast basing would be a strategic advantage but I suspect that it complicates the location problem for the opposition.

Would love to see a maintenance facility capable of supporting subs in Darwin too. With twelve subs a local continuous build is a no brainer, which will keep Adelaide busy to the extent that I imagine major fabrication work will have to subcontracted to the west plus probably FCDs and MCDs too. This would overwhelm the Henderson facilities which would open up the possibility of needing to fit the various intermediate and assisted maintenance availabilities at or close to the fleet bases and forward operating areas, which in turn would require technical and logistics teams to coordinate and support work.

With a fleet of twelve boats, for the first time ever the RAN will be able to fully support their own submarine operational training (including with SOF), fleet ASW training, exercises at home and abroad, operational patrols (especially using forward bases and possibly crew swaps) as well as concurrent deployments as required. This will completely change what we are able to do and where we can do it. Conversely a larger fleet should help fix the crewing issues as it should open up posting and training options previously lacking, as well as providing the all important critical mass of trained operators to absorb the required training billets.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Thumbs up to sustainable builds.

Rumours are the white paper is exquisitely detailed and well costed. It might be one of the most important defence whitepapers in the region for a long time.

This might be one of those rare cases where it was worth the wait.

I would expect it to be pretty significant for all 3 services and geopolitically.

The RAN obviously has a lot riding on it, platforms, subs, frigate replacements, weapons, OPV's, heavy landing, helicopters, etc etc. But also how that stuff is going to fit together, what we are really concerned about.

Its arriving a very important time too. Julie Bishop is in China and Japan. The situation has a element of drama about it.The time for dicking around with contradictory whitepapers, and lacking long term strategic plans has ended.

 

[old faithful]

Geez, Wilkie is on the box, saying how much we don,t need 12 subs or spend more on defence......he is very short sighted.

 

[Volkodav]

Geez, Wilkie is on the box, saying how much we don,t need 12 subs or spend more on defence......he is very short sighted.

He's quite odd, I get the impression that he is one of the old school light infantry, light forces mafia who pride themselves in their lack of technical knowledge and believe the ANZAC spirit will carry us through with a SMLE/SLR, with fixed bayonet in hand.

 

[old faithful]

He's quite odd, I get the impression that he is one of the old school light infantry, light forces mafia who pride themselves in their lack of technical knowledge and believe the ANZAC spirit will carry us through with a SMLE/SLR, with fixed bayonet in hand.

lol, I think he's worse than that.
I think he was a Lt Col who reached his peak rank, and was told that "thats it for your career" and he is now a bitter and twisted FTA man.

 

[Volkodav]

Thumbs up to sustainable builds.

Rumours are the white paper is exquisitely detailed and well costed. It might be one of the most important defence whitepapers in the region for a long time.

This might be one of those rare cases where it was worth the wait.

I would expect it to be pretty significant for all 3 services and geopolitically.

The RAN obviously has a lot riding on it, platforms, subs, frigate replacements, weapons, OPV's, heavy landing, helicopters, etc etc. But also how that stuff is going to fit together, what we are really concerned about.

Its arriving a very important time too. Julie Bishop is in China and Japan. The situation has a element of drama about it.The time for dicking around with contradictory whitepapers, and lacking long term strategic plans has ended.

I actually wonder if it will have more in common with the Rudd/Fitzgibbon "we need to deter China" paper than the Gillard/Smith "out source our security to the USA" one.

What I am particularly curious about, as the OPVs are pretty much a sure thing, is will there be any mention of the light/fast frigates/corvettes that Johnston and Kevin Andrews both seemed so enamoured with. Also what about the LCH replacements, there need not be six, they need not even specifically be flat bottomed with bow doors, but we do need something to fill the gap between the LHDs/LPD and the LCM1E.