Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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Stock

Member
Yes John

I concur I'm confused to.
Suggest that when replacement projects ( or lack of ) get pushed out to the horizon it all becomes a bit of guess work.
We will just have to wait and see what eventuates


Regads S
Speaking of "out to the horizon", the project to acquire a land-based ASM (Sea 4100 Phase 2) has a program timeline of 2018-2037! As I understand it the systems themselves will be acquired in the mid-2020s, so why then have a 19-year program if that's the case!

Little wonder industry is viewing this particular project with some scepticism.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
IMO I think its quite likely that the RAN will be interested in operating the new LCAC (SSC).

They have been made significantly more efficient with half the number of engines, engine cores shared with Mv-22's, reduction in moving parts and easier maintenance. The new SSC LCAC is supposed to IOC 2020.

I don't think mexeflotes are a good fit for the LHDs. Pods that close to shore on a ship that big..

Now that Australia has the LHD's we can look at items like LCAC or MV-22 to see if that sort of capability would be useful. If Australia is serious about amphibious capability it would be hard to ignore the capability of these type of craft to the overall amphibious capability.

Being able to insert forces approximately twice as quickly is a pretty big capability win.
 

Vulcan

Member
As an IF, there is no guarantee we would have went French it's the one area I hazard a guess that we defiantly would have went with something in the water.If the Virginina's were not avalible we could in the theory gone with Astute Class submarine know that the kinks seem to be iron out, wonder if they had room to slip in another 2 or 3 boats before the Successor build so we could get hands on experance then build 6 here in Australia for 9 boats
There's tremendous pressure to get Dreadnought in the water as is, it's literally impossible to add any extra Astutes into the queue. Literally impossible. Barrow is maxed out for the next few decades.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
There's tremendous pressure to get Dreadnought in the water as is, it's literally impossible to add any extra Astutes into the queue. Literally impossible. Barrow is maxed out for the next few decades.
So it would seem that it would be practically impossible for Australia to get Nukes even if they wanted them.

It seems that the Americans, British and French haven't got any spare capacity to build the boats anyway.
 

Vulcan

Member
So it would seem that it would be practically impossible for Australia to get Nukes even if they wanted them.

It seems that the Americans, British and French haven't got any spare capacity to build the boats anyway.
It's just not an exportable capability, those industries are so strategic that they are most likely sized, supported and funded specifically for national requirements, anything else is a massive spanner in the works.

Building a nuc boat is such a monumental undertaking it demonstrates a severe naivety when it's phrased as 'oh we can just slot in X more boats' IMO - not aimed at anyone in particular.
 

Oberon

Member
Speaking of "out to the horizon", the project to acquire a land-based ASM (Sea 4100 Phase 2) has a program timeline of 2018-2037! As I understand it the systems themselves will be acquired in the mid-2020s, so why then have a 19-year program if that's the case!

Little wonder industry is viewing this particular project with some scepticism.
2037 would be the anticipated service life of the system.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Speaking of "out to the horizon", the project to acquire a land-based ASM (Sea 4100 Phase 2) has a program timeline of 2018-2037! As I understand it the systems themselves will be acquired in the mid-2020s, so why then have a 19-year program if that's the case!

Little wonder industry is viewing this particular project with some scepticism.
Indicative life of type, I believe is the phrase used for the outer years of project timelines, wih a missile based system, I guess they are using rough shelf life figures for the missiles themselves?

Missiles acquired in 2022, shelf life of 15 years that sort of thing...
 

Stock

Member
Indicative life of type, I believe is the phrase used for the outer years of project timelines, wih a missile based system, I guess they are using rough shelf life figures for the missiles themselves?

Missiles acquired in 2022, shelf life of 15 years that sort of thing...
You both might have a point re missile shelf life but normally the LOT of a system/platform is not what the acquisition program timeline indicates. Generally, it indicates the equipment acquisition schedule, i.e the period between first approvals and introduction into service or FOC.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
G'day

Interesting short article By Andrew Davies from The Australian Strategic Policy Intitute regarding the deterrent value of submarines.
Alot of this has being mentioned before, but again the subject of the time table for submarine production and in service numbers comes up against percieved threats and questions will we have enough, quick enough. An open question that just may gain more traction in Australia with a new administration in the white house.

Anyway worth a read

Regards S
 

Oberon

Member
You both might have a point re missile shelf life but normally the LOT of a system/platform is not what the acquisition program timeline indicates. Generally, it indicates the equipment acquisition schedule, i.e the period between first approvals and introduction into service or FOC.
The timeline and project costs are quoted for the indicative lifetime of the asset, including sustainment. For instance, the MRTT and Wedgetail have time lines out to the mid to late 30s.
 

Stock

Member
The timeline and project costs are quoted for the indicative lifetime of the asset, including sustainment. For instance, the MRTT and Wedgetail have time lines out to the mid to late 30s.
The vast majority of project timelines listed in the DIIP have the second year/date as the likely date of introduction into service or FOC, but it might be different where projects acquire missiles, not sure. The extended timeframe examples you list there I expect refer to planned upgrades over LOT.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
G'day

Interesting short article By Andrew Davies from The Australian Strategic Policy Intitute regarding the deterrent value of submarines.
Alot of this has being mentioned before, but again the subject of the time table for submarine production and in service numbers comes up against percieved threats and questions will we have enough, quick enough. An open question that just may gain more traction in Australia with a new administration in the white house.

Anyway worth a read

Regards S
The link to that article is The deterrent value of submarines | The Strategist and within that there is a further link to the full speech delivered on Nov 15.

Davies simply points out the changing strategic influence of China as presented in DWPs from 2000, 2009 and 2016 and supports that RAN submarines present the most effective deterrent option because a symmetric response to a major power (China) from Australia will have little effect but an asymmetric response a la submarines makes more sense.

Further, if we accept the above then the build programme for the 12 new subs makes no strategic sense and the strategic policy is compromised by industry policy .
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
You both might have a point re missile shelf life but normally the LOT of a system/platform is not what the acquisition program timeline indicates. Generally, it indicates the equipment acquisition schedule, i.e the period between first approvals and introduction into service or FOC.
And given it is likely to be something like this, once our North American friends acquire it, acquiring it ourselves would not necessarily take long (particularly if it was felt we really needed it):

Carter, Roper Unveil Army’s New Ship-Killer Missile: ATACMS Upgrade « Breaking Defense - Defense industry news, analysis and commentary

Regards,

Massive
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Avery interesting summary of what it would take pers wise to become an SSN player, I thought the silent service would have to expand but I didn't think by this much.


https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/nuclear-propulsion-australias-submarines/
I wonder what the optimal size for the current fleet of six Collins class subs would be if we chose to multi crew the fleet to bring up numbers as we transition to a future larger submarine fleet. Three crew to two boats may have merit as Collins availability rates increase.

With grand ambitions of a fleet of twelve boats we may want to prove to ourselves we have the culture and ability not to fall short on the need of human capital.


Thoughts S
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
I wonder what the optimal size for the current fleet of six Collins class subs would be if we chose to multi crew the fleet to bring up numbers as we transition to a future larger submarine fleet. Three crew to two boats may have merit as Collins availability rates increase.

With grand ambitions of a fleet of twelve boats we may want to prove to ourselves we have the culture and ability not to fall short on the need of human capital.


Thoughts S
In theory sounds good, In practice not garaunteed t work. If memory serves me a similar system was implemented with the ACPB's and didn't end up working so well. I'd also wonder if we would be pushing the boat's out into too many deployed ays between docking cycles.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
In theory sounds good, In practice not garaunteed t work. If memory serves me a similar system was implemented with the ACPB's and didn't end up working so well. I'd also wonder if we would be pushing the boat's out into too many deployed ays between docking cycles.
The Collins were planned to have two crews per boat, not sure when this fell over, but it believe it was before Collins was Launched. Again I am not sure but believe it may have been dropped in the mid 90s due to the leaning (gutting) of defence to save money (first Keating then Howard), were anything seen as "tail" (as opposed to "teeth") was cut.

Ironically dual crewing would have worked better on Collins than the Armidales as both crews would share the maintenance on a single hull where the ACPBs had three crews for every two boats with maintenance the responsibility of a civilian contractor who subcontracted work all over the place, the crew having virtually no control.
 
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