Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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t68

Well-Known Member
What I would really like to see, once shipbuilding is moving at a sustainable takt (takt time-the average unit production time needed to meet customer demand) is the development of a DDH to, as an absolute minimum, embark a flight of AEW helicopters and additional naval combat helicopters (MH-60R) and VTOL UCAV. Such a ship could be substantially cheaper than an AWD or new generation frigate and could actually be significantly smaller (think Chakri Naruebet) but ideally would share common systems with the destroyers / frigates, including propulsion, but potentially also combat system, including sensors and some weapon systems.

I am not saying these ships should be built immediately but rather, once the continual build strategy has settled down, that the surface combatant force be supplemented with DDHs which would make up between a fifth and an third of the major combatant fleet. Basically they should be built instead of three destroyers / frigates or in addition to them, i.e. replacing existing majors 3 DDH and 9 DDG, 4 DDH and 8 DDG, or if numbers are increased 3 DDH and 12 DDG, or my preferred 5 DDH and 10 DDG. I have used DDG because logically the new frigates should be at least as capable as the AWDs. They would be ideal for deploying new generation UCAVs as well as the more obvious Romeos, Sierras, Crowsnest and F-35Bs.

The next step would be to progressively evolve the OPV into OCV / LCS or light frigates, improving each generation as experience building, maintaining and operating the type increases confidence and highlights areas the type could expand to fill.

Remember technology is continually improving, propulsion systems providing more power for lower fuel burn and greater reliability, smaller crews, improved sensors, all for lower comparative cost. Just look at the capability ASMD delivers the ANZACs it is not difficult to imagine this could be exceeded by a system on a 2000t combatant within 20 years.

I do like we're your going on this and have for quite a while. I was actually looking into the Chakri Naruebet the other day and thinking it should be quite doable to build here in Australia, with a mix of fixed wing and rotary assets, but then I remembered sometime ago someone said that F35 was not compatible with her, but as a stand alone helicopter carrier she would be good, only addition I would like to make is make her multi spot V22 compatible for future AEW variant
 

swerve

Super Moderator
What I would really like to see, once shipbuilding is moving at a sustainable takt (takt time-the average unit production time needed to meet customer demand) is the development of a DDH to, as an absolute minimum, embark a flight of AEW helicopters and additional naval combat helicopters (MH-60R) and VTOL UCAV.
What exactly do you mean by DDH? A flat-top helicopter carrier with some destroyer systems, like Hyuga & Ise? A cruiser-sized (for the time) ship with a large helicopter deck & hangar to suit, like the Italians & French built in the 1950s & 1960s?

The Japanese 'DDHs' (only Japan has mis-named such a ship a DDH, & I don't like it) are primarily ASW helicopter carriers with non-ASW weapons intended only for self-defence.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
What exactly do you mean by DDH? A flat-top helicopter carrier with some destroyer systems, like Hyuga & Ise? A cruiser-sized (for the time) ship with a large helicopter deck & hangar to suit, like the Italians & French built in the 1950s & 1960s?

The Japanese 'DDHs' (only Japan has mis-named such a ship a DDH, & I don't like it) are primarily ASW helicopter carriers with non-ASW weapons intended only for self-defence.
Was there an issue with their constitution at the time when these ships were commissioned that made the DDH name more politically correct than "carrier"?
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Yes, displacement is about 7,000 *short* tons,
AAARRRGGHH! Please don't mention that abomination if you can ever avoid it.

AFAIK, it's not used for ship displacement. The USN mixes 1000kg or (usually) 2240lb tons in its ship class descriptions, & the rest of the world is metric. I've no idea where a figure for ship displacement using it would come from. European ship builders & navies don't use it, so someone would have to multiply the displacement by (1000/907) to derive it.

BAE's website gives the displacement of Type 26 as 6000 tonnes - but I'm sure that's only approximate.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
What exactly do you mean by DDH? A flat-top helicopter carrier with some destroyer systems, like Hyuga & Ise? A cruiser-sized (for the time) ship with a large helicopter deck & hangar to suit, like the Italians & French built in the 1950s & 1960s?

The Japanese 'DDHs' (only Japan has mis-named such a ship a DDH, & I don't like it) are primarily ASW helicopter carriers with non-ASW weapons intended only for self-defence.
Very definitely the Japanese style DDH. I would love F-35Bs but at the end of the day the capability increase provided by a flight of CEC equipped AEW helicopters (or even potentially UAVs), combined with the dramatically improved ability to operate and support helicopters at sea would make a through deck design, with hanger and extensive maintenance facilities worthwhile.

As I understand it the issue with naming the type DDH within the JMSDF relates to their definition of destroyer actually meaning escort ship. So if you think of it as helicopter escort ship it doesn't really sound as bad as helicopter destroyer. They really aren't too different from some of the later British "Escort Cruiser" sketches from the late 60s that preceded the Invincible class Through Deck Cruisers (yes I know they are light carriers) and actually evolved from original concepts similar to Jeanne d'Arc.

My dream RAN would be able to field a number (three to five) of escort groups, each consisting of a Flight IIA Arleigh Burke DDG, a Hyuga Type DDH, a Zummwalt type DDG and a pair of light frigates. The Burkes would have every performance, man power reducing, maintenance and operating cost improving mod in BIW and HII books, the Zummwalts would have the originally planned DBR set up and the Hyugas would be built with as many systems common to the Burkes and Zummwalts as possible. The light frigates would be an evolution of the OCV concept, ideally using USN LCS modules but on a 30kt platform with a baseline including, as a minimum, an ASMD based combat system including a Mk-41 VLS for ESSM and a hanger for a MH-60R.

Like I said "dream" but that's the sort of force I believe is achievable and affordable in the long term. The USN will eventually have to replace the older Burkes and Ticonderogas with something, initially it will be enhanced Burkes but eventually something far more modern and assuming the DDG-1000s work out the something should resemble them. With the benefits of helicopters, UAVs and UCAVs, through decks will become even more valuable going forward, definitely the way to go.

I did actually write a much more over the top post for here, starting with "complete fantasy, but if I had a time machine and a hypnotic attitude adjuster" but thought better of it. Basically it was a hindsight approach to the RAN and local shipbuilding, assuming a break into the timeline at 87/88. I may put it sometime but not at the moment, or more likely I may dress it up more and post it somewhere more appropriate to such hypotheticals and alt histories. It was more a "with the same money and a few things done differently" than a "money is no object" thing.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I disagree with a through deck cruiser concept.
I also disagree with heavily arming the OCV's.

If we are going to get any additional aviation focused ships it should be another LHD. Preferably enlarge with a 15-20m plug (pushing it out to 35,000t in amphibious mode). Aircraft have gotten larger and heavier and will continue to do so. Helicopters are going to give way to more V-22 type aircraft for all roles. These will have large issues operating off a ship any smaller than a LHD (which has only 1 spot for a V-22). A larger LHD will be able to land at least 2 V-22 (possibly 3). 3 LHD's will give the ADF the required amphibious capability the LHD were purchased for. A 3rd LHD would also free up capability for F-35B's. The extra length would provide additional space for fuel, aircraft, an internal lift big enough for F-35B's/helos between internal decks, greater amphibious capability etc. The length would also most likely make if faster with the existing power output.

This would allow Australia to have two LHD's available pretty much all the time. One east, one west. Or one pre-positioned north. Or one available for international missions when required. One that could operate as a full carrier (with ~24 F-35bs), and two that could offer significant carrier capability. Being a LHD we already have the infrastructure and training in place.

I disagree with turning the OCV into frigates. They would carry over the 20mm gun from existing patrol craft and the 76mm guns currently in storage from the FFG's. Perhaps a single spot for a modular Phalanx or searam type defense. Certainly ideally compatibility with LCS or container modules, able to launch dismounted systems, UAV's/UUV, RHIBs etc. While most of the time they would be used for patrol/policing duties, eez patrol, refugees, they could also be used for special forces insertion/extraction.
We will never have the funds to do 20 x corvettes or 20 x frigates properly. We could have 12 very capable tier 1 surface combatants. Trying to uparm the corvettes is going to take away from Sm-6, or Tlam or SM-3, or naval based patriot BMD missiles.

If a OCV can't handle something with a 20mm and embarked air, then it should be supported by a 7000+T frigate, with powerful radars and 32-48 VLS. With naval tlam and SM-6 that could be beyond the horizon capability.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Since we are likely to only have the 12 I reckon the 20 or so OPV's/OCV's should at least be fitted for (but not with) Harpoons, MU90's, Towed sonar and a VLS system, Likely loaded with ESSM's and a CEA radar (Scaled down version of one being fitted to the Anzac's). In a worst case scenario they could make decent enough escort's.
Whilst recognising that this thread has a habit of derailing into a wish list absent any regard for the realities of politics or finances, I suggest that this is a little bit over the top.

I cannot imagine any government being able to convince the Australian public that the existing patrol boast should be replaced by vessels larger than the 1800/1900 tonne range without it entirely undermining the case for a realistic number of frigates on a "the OPVs are good enough" basis.

Simultaneously, OCV/OPV hulls in that range may well be helicopter capable with a 76mm or similar main gun and flexible with respect to additional capability, but size and weight constraints would surely mean most of that list would be impossible. Pin your "for but not with" hopes on MU90 and towed sonar, and/or some form of CIWS, not a defacto miniature frigate armament

oldsig127
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I disagree with a through deck cruiser concept.
I also disagree with heavily arming the OCV's.
.
A through deck destroyer or cruiser, without a well dock and extensive facilities of an LHD, as well as being significantly smaller, would be substantially cheaper (to own and operate) and infinitely more flexible. The RAN already has two LHDs, ships so large and capable that the question arises, what would a third, larger version, actually carry? Are we going to double the size of the army to give the extra large amphib something to do? Add Choules and the much needed LCH replacements there is probably little justification in a third LHD, let alone a larger derivative.

A smaller through deck ship, as stated previously is cheaper to own and operate, has higher performance, smaller crew, lower operating costs, carries more aircraft for its size, can be acquired in greater numbers meaning its capabilities can be in more places at any given time than the LHDs. Potentially they would be more survivable through superior sensor and armament suits in addition to the capabilities provided by the aircraft carried, AEW, ASW, CSAR, ARH and even MCM helicopters, rotary and fixed wing UCAVs, they can even function as an LPH if required. You likely wouldn't send a. strategic asset such as an LHD to the Persian Gulf or East Africa but one of these ships would be ideal. They would complement and support the major surface combatants, even significantly add to the capability of any force escorting an LHD. Then if you add a half dozen or more F-35B to the mix the impact goes through the roof.

On OPV to OCV to light frigate, initially the ACPBs should be replaced by OPVs and possibly OCVs with provision for multi-mission modules (preferably USN spec as developed for the LCS program). The thing is we have eight ship sets of sensors and weapons from the ANZACs that will be surplus once the new frigates / destroyers start to come on line, as well as systems removed from the Adelaide class FFGs as they were / are retired. Why not pull them through to a light frigate that shares a high level of commonality with the OPV / OCV? Some would be base OPVs, some would be multi-mission OCVs and some would be corvettes / light frigates using ANZAC ASMD and / or FFGUP systems.

Instead of throwing useful kit away, or worse paying to keep it in storage even though it will never be used again, why not just use it? What I am looking at is ways to enhance capability within a limited budget and reusing capable systems is one way to do this. The Japanese, Italians and many others are convinced of the benefits of supporting as many helicopters as possible at sea. Experience has proven that a through deck design is superior for operating and supporting helicopters than a hybrid helicopter carrier, let alone a surface combatant with a hanger for only one or two helicopters. Such a setup is without a doubt superior for supporting UAVs and UCAVs as they evolve and inevitably grow in size and platform impact.

Just my two cents, but as I see it we have our big LHDs, our purple assets and our low end patrol vessels, what we need is actual warships, vessels to add to and if possible multiply the fleets offensive and defensive capabilities.
 

Bluey 006

Active Member
With UAVs and UCAVs coming into their own in the next 15 or so years ( allowing for the long ranges they can travel and their extended loiter times) coupled with the fact fixed wing vertical take of and landing UCAV will emerge (aka VARIOUS like platforms) do you think such a ship needed?

[Mod edit]
No need to quote the whole preceding post when replying to it.
 
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oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
As a matter of interest, both LHDs are together again, bt this time at FBE for the first time.

oldsig127
 
As a matter of interest, both LHDs are together again, bt this time at FBE for the first time.

oldsig127
Thanks for the heads up.

Just checked Marine Traffic and FBE would be quite a sight at the moment.

Both the Adelaide & Canberra girls, Success, Melbourne, Darwin & Stuart, if I have it correct.

Finally, a sight from back in 70's-80's, can be seen again today. :)

Note; Choules seems to be in Townsville, with HMNZS Canterbury in Cairns. Is there any training Ex happening up north currently?
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Note; Choules seems to be in Townsville, with HMNZS Canterbury in Cairns. Is there any training Ex happening up north currently?
Talisman Sabre. Biannual major exercise with all three services, USA, NZ and others. Press says 30k service personnel. We Had USS George Washington in Brisbane last weekend together with a USN Arleigh Burke (can't recall which)

As I understand it the Talisman Sabre series of exercises followed on from the Kangaroo exercises from my day. And I suggest that by TS-2017 HMAS Canberra and the ARE will be heavily involved if still somewhat new to the techniques

oldsig127
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
With UAVs and UCAVs coming into their own in the next 15 or so years ( allowing for the long ranges they can travel and their extended loiter times) coupled with the fact fixed wing vertical take of and landing UCAV will emerge (aka VARIOUS like platforms) do you think such a ship needed?

[Mod edit]
No need to quote the whole preceding post when replying to it.
A large flight deck and hanger makes even more sense when you consider UAV and UCAV developments. The other technology is 3D printing, with a large hanger with significant maintenance and workshop spaces a number of 3D printers could be installed with the purpose of printing replacement components, ordinance or even complete UAVs or UCAVs, this would never be an option for a destroyer or frigate. The USN is developing this technology at the moment for their carriers but once perfected rolling it out to LHD, LHA and LPDs etc. would be a no brainer.

As I see it a DDH would provide command facilities, AEW (with CEC) helicopters, as well as ASW, CSAR, MCM types, adding flexibility to any RAN surface group, even without F-35Bs, add them and every RAN group including one of these ships becomes a highly capable strike asset. Adding such ships would increase capability without having to dramatically increase numbers, they would provide outer zone ASW, AEW and anti surface strike, command, control and surveillance, the AWDs with SM-6 and potentially SM-3 air and anti missile defence while the new frigates would add to this as well as potentially contributing a land attack capability.

If systems from the ANZACs and FFGs can be pulled through to a smaller combatant there is the potential to supplement the DDH, DDG groups with small frigates that have cost us not much more than an OPV would but deliver more firepower than an LCS.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I do like we're your going on this and have for quite a while. I was actually looking into the Chakri Naruebet the other day and thinking it should be quite doable to build here in Australia, with a mix of fixed wing and rotary assets, but then I remembered sometime ago someone said that F35 was not compatible with her, but as a stand alone helicopter carrier she would be good, only addition I would like to make is make her multi spot V22 compatible for future AEW variant
Always been a bit of a fan of the Chakri Naruebet as a small and affordable light aircraft carrier. In some ways it was ahead of it's time in getting a modest number of aircaft to sea. Often judged as trying to do too much on too small a ship, it is not without some aircraft capacity. Able to carry at least a mix air group of a dozen helicopters and Harriers it must be appreciated that this small ship in conjunction with a small task force provides a much greater aviation capacity at sea than a purely all frigate /destroyer force. Unfortunately for the Chakri Naruebet it was compared too much with larger fleet carriers and was in the hands of an underfunded Thai navy who could never do justice to the ships design.
I do feel the ships role and design do not get the credit that it deserves.
Although the Chakri Naruebet could opperate the Harrier I would suspect the F35B would place too many demands on a ship of this size to be practical.
However while the F35B may be too big for ships of this size many helicopters are not.
As such many navys have seen the benefits of small sized aircraft carriers such as the Chakri Naruebet and have built or have designs for the popular trend of helicopter/amphibious style ships in the 10 to 20,000 tonne range.
Australia of course has followed this line with the much larger Canberra class based on Spain's LHD the Juan Carlos1.
As to Australia having the F35B, there are camps both for and against and I guess on this controversial aviation matter only time will tell.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
And I suggest that by TS-2017 HMAS Canberra and the ARE will be heavily involved if still somewhat new to the techniques
2017 will see the testing and certification of the full ARG capability, with all three amphibs being used and the full landing force being embarked and put ashore. The ARG capability will then be put on the shelf and never used again unless needed operationally.

I can see FBE from my kitchen window, and it is quite full at the moment. I can only see one of the LHDs though.
 

Samoa

Member
I can see FBE from my kitchen window, and it is quite full at the moment. I can only see one of the LHDs though.
Adelaide has gone into the dry dock for hull and flight deck painting. It will be in there for a number of weeks, before heading back to Willamstown, and readiness for final trials later in the year. But should be back at FBE before the end of the year as HMAS Adelaide, not Nuship. :)
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
2017 will see the testing and certification of the full ARG capability, with all three amphibs being used and the full landing force being embarked and put ashore.
I hope you're right, but that's just two years away with Adelaide not yet commissioned, and Canberra yet to conduct a landing operation. It seems an impossibly short timeline.

The ARG capability will then be put on the shelf and never used again unless needed operationally.
This I agree with, but more likely at TS 2019 and then exercised pretty infrequently given the considerable stretch with the current size of our services

oldsig127
 
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