Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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aussienscale

The Bunker Group
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who also have a PX and run the Terror club which used to be the RN club. Great place for a cheep beer swim and a feed :cheers!...its just off base.
Is a great place for a beer, bbq and swim, it was always a good way to start the visit. We used to sit in the pool and drink during the 4pm downpour get half tanked then head into town. Is the "American Club" (as it was called then) still down the road ? It was always a good stop as well, fully aircond, well fitted out and the bar staff appreciated us visiting if there were no US Ships in town
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Is a great place for a beer, bbq and swim, it was always a good way to start the visit. We used to sit in the pool and drink during the 4pm downpour get half tanked then head into town. Is the "American Club" (as it was called then) still down the road ? It was always a good stop as well, fully aircond, well fitted out and the bar staff appreciated us visiting if there were no US Ships in town
They did it back up when we pulled in June, named it something else. we had USN ship in so few people there, terror was a little packed, 3 aussie ships and 1 sub, 2 kiwis and RN with a USN "weather ship", made big nite and we all had to work next day. Showed how different RAN is compared to RN, RNZN when we all had RBT at both watches, while other three had a sway from side to side.
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
They did it back up when we pulled in June, named it something else. we had USN ship in so few people there, terror was a little packed, 3 aussie ships and 1 sub, 2 kiwis and RN with a USN "weather ship", made big nite and we all had to work next day. Showed how different RAN is compared to RN, RNZN when we all had RBT at both watches, while other three had a sway from side to side.
RBT :( Bloody hell, what is the world coming too ?? If we came back on board smashed and they concidered we were that pissed, they would log it into the day book on the gangway and the QM or BM would do hourly checks on you to make sure you were still alive, usually you would get either poked with a Maglite or a couple of slaps around to cheeks to get a grunt or some sort of response :D
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
RBT :( Bloody hell, what is the world coming too ?? If we came back on board smashed and they concidered we were that pissed, they would log it into the day book on the gangway and the QM or BM would do hourly checks on you to make sure you were still alive, usually you would get either poked with a Maglite or a couple of slaps around to cheeks to get a grunt or some sort of response :D
Those days are long long gone...COs are too concerned after success 'adventures' to allow anything to happen while out drinking. our up top was nannied alot of what we did, so the best option was to stay far away from the ship and not return till leave was up...
When one sailor came back intoxicated he was put in the hanger with a medic for the night and then give PUPS (personnel under punishment) for the next 2 ports.

If you ask around you can find more command teams are concerning themselves more with minor issues involving alcohol and enforcing an above max punishment.
In the middle east its 2 beers per man per day perhaps following a month long patrol, which for aussies sailors is like a glass of water after 20km run...
 
Some thoughts and opinions on australias new vessels needed under this SEA1180 thingy. Firstly this is just my opinion and thus others are free to disagree.

The Austal OPV at 80m LOA and approx 480 tonnes seems nice, however I feel that they may have tried to put too much onto a small hull. If the same 'fittings' were placed on a 900t hull then logic dictates there would be room to increase speed, robustness, range and seakeeping. The trick of course is to resist the tempatation to add ever more pieces of equipment. At 900t it would still be ensure a fraction of the size of the US Littoral Combat Ship which around 4000t is possibly oversized.

The multihull layout has a lot going for it. Note that Austal can get a large helicopter deck and a hangar all on 480t, whereas some monohull OPVs do not have a hanger even at 1500t. In sailing circles, trimarans are noted for having more carrying capacity (weight) vs catamarans. Wheras Catamarans have more deckspace. A trimaran layout (which I really like) allows for a long narrow hullform which is fast and efficient. It also allows for topweight to be added easily, something difficult in a monohull.

My personal opinion is that an Offshore Patrol Boat should be smaller at around 1200t for a mono, or 900t for a multi. If other vessels are needed, be they mine hunters, hydrographic vessels or Corvettes, then a 2000t hull would be fine for that.


There are many tasks where a larger number of smaller ships should be more suitable than smaller numbers of larger ships. Tasks might include inderdicting asylum seeker boats, fishery protection, stopping drug smugglers, protecting oil rigs and natural gas installations, having a presence in an area, stopping terrorists, assisting vessels in distress, escorting civilain ships off the east coast of Africa, and more. The terrorist attacks in Mumbai, and the war in Sri Lanka showed that in general larger numbers of smaller craft are preferable to fewer numbers of larger craft when it comes to dealing with assymetric threats. When it comes to engaging other warships or figthing another nation then 'real' warships make sense. Here a corvette makes sense. If a corvette is required then I think it best to do it properly and not try and squeeze too much on too small a hull.

If the idea is to replace the 260t Armidale class with ships at 2000t, I can see that what would end up with is too large to do the job well (or at least cost effectively). How could the Navy be stopped from giving into tempation to add harpoon, ESSM, Nukla decoys, torpedos, towed array sonar, CIWS etc etc. All these things are great on a corvette, but for a vessel to replace the Armidale class is seems a bit much.

In terms of OPVs I like, for more than 30 years now one of my farourite vessels have been the French class D'Estienne d'Orves class. They are at least 30 years old and are still going. They seem very cost effective to build and to run. A ship like this but with a helicopter deck, but no hangar would be ideal I think. I know their old, but they still seem to be doing good work, and doing it cost effectivelu. Perhaps a small unmanned helicopter drone could be added on occasion. Link is here

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Estienne_d%27Orves_class"]D'Estienne d'Orves class - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


I notice that Austal is now building the new Bay class for Customs. At 57.8m LOA they seem a fraction lenghtened version of the Navys Armidale class at 56.8m LOA, they also seem more built in forward, logic suggest in order to increase internal volume. It is almost as though Customs is being tasked with the job that the Navy patrol boats are doing now. Wont that put more strain on the Customs boats? I do have to admit that these Bay class seem very nice vessels for Customs, very impressive.

Cape Class Patrol Boats :: Patrol Boats :: Defence Products :: Products And Services :: Austal


If the Navy is attempting to replace the Armidale class with ships at around 2000t, the trouble is that they are likely to cost many, many mulitples of what they are doing away with. The Armidale class cost 24m to $28m each, a vessel at 1800t or 2000t is likley to be well well over $100m. (maybe $200m?) If they mix it all up in one big project of 20 vessels, it will be hard to see the cost of an individual patrol boat. There is a risk that one vessel might come close to the cost of ten of the Patrol boats they are intended to replace. A corvette costing $200m plus is not unusual.

Yes I know they are meant to be fitted out as OPVs, but given the history of the Navy there is a real probability they will keep adding features and features. The public are not going to cause a stink if a ship is upgraded quietly from OPVs to corvettes. All the Navy has to say is that they need to protect their ships from theats. If the vessel was 1200t, it would be much, much harder to add lots of extra equipment, thus the Navy should be better able to resist the tempation to add extra items to these ships and thus increase the cost.

There is a list of Patrol boats here at wikipedia
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_boat"]Patrol boat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

In conclusion,.. sorry for the length of this post. It is simply my opinion, not fact. Others are free to disagree. In general I put up about one post every six months so hope people aren't too upset.
 

hairyman

Active Member
Does the Navy have a need or requirement for both types of boats/ships, an Offshore Patrol Vessel and a Corvette? If so, they could keep the OPV smaller, and have the Corvette the same hull as the other planned vessels. That way they could probably cut back on the 20 hulls of the class.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Austal OPV at 80m LOA and approx 480 tonnes seems nice, however I feel that they may have tried to put too much onto a small hull. If the same 'fittings' were placed on a 900t hull then logic dictates there would be room to increase speed, robustness, range and seakeeping.
I think you have the displacement of the Austal MRV 80 seriously wrong. It has a “deadweight” of 400 tonnes. Deadweight is how much weight it can carry, not how big it is. Austal try and avoid using displacement because as an aluminium ship it doesn’t reflect its size compared to steel hulled ships.

Does the Navy have a need or requirement for both types of boats/ships, an Offshore Patrol Vessel and a Corvette? If so, they could keep the OPV smaller, and have the Corvette the same hull as the other planned vessels. That way they could probably cut back on the 20 hulls of the class.
The Navy wants 20 hulls of a common type. Its not about making some of them smaller but of combining as many roles to get a big class of ships and the efficiencies that come from them. Further I’m not really sure what the difference between OPV and Corvette is that you are getting at? Both are different names for the same thing.
 
I guess what I was getting at was that the efficiencies of building 26 vessels of the same hull size, vs building smaller vessels and larger vessels. The armidale class cost 24m to $28 million each. A simple OPV could even be built overseas, off the production line so to speak, whereas the high end corvette could be built in Australia

To me, an OPV is a simple vessel, not optimised for fighting other ships, submarines or planes. Whereas a corvette is meant to do these things. (well that was what I thought the differnce was)

Yes, you have me on deadweight there. here was me thinking that the displacement was 400t, and to me it just did not look right. I now see that deadweight is carrying capacity. I stand corrected, I thought it was displacement, not deadweight.

I guess I am worried that the Navy will go for something flash and shiny, high end, knowing that someone else will pay, as opposed to larger numbers of simpler, less capable vessels. I know that an 1800t ship is more capable than a 1200t ship, but to me a 1200t ship is still going to me much much more capable than a 240t patrol boat
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I guess I am worried that the Navy will go for something flash and shiny, high end, knowing that someone else will pay, as opposed to larger numbers of simpler, less capable vessels. I know that an 1800t ship is more capable than a 1200t ship, but to me a 1200t ship is still going to me much much more capable than a 240t patrol boat
The SEA 1180 program is not for a corvette armed with a high end combat system, ESSM, Harpoon, etc. I don't know where this idea got injected into discussion about it. Its for a 'fast' OPV with a medium helicopter capability and a large multi use space that can operate modules for stand off MCM and hydrographic research.
 

Jhom

New Member
The SEA 1180 program is not for a corvette armed with a high end combat system, ESSM, Harpoon, etc. I don't know where this idea got injected into discussion about it. Its for a 'fast' OPV with a medium helicopter capability and a large multi use space that can operate modules for stand off MCM and hydrographic research.
How fast is really "fast" for the SEA 1280??
Medium helicopter could be a SH-60?? or we are talking about something the size of a 212?
No Harpoon... really?? Not even "fitted for but not with"? AShMs add a great punch to OPVs speccially if the are to patrol some not so friendly waters, can you give some info about this point please?
And finally, any thoughts about the cannon that might be used?
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
How fast is really "fast" for the SEA 1280??
26-27 knots

Medium helicopter could be a SH-60?? or we are talking about something the size of a 212?
NH90 TTH (aka MRH90)

No Harpoon... really?? Not even "fitted for but not with"? AShMs add a great punch to OPVs speccially if the are to patrol some not so friendly waters, can you give some info about this point please?
Such a warlike mission is not a driver for the SEA 1180. When used under such circumstances as a MCM or delivery vessel it will have escort by a frigate. For warlike maritime interdiction the primary capability is the helicopter. Stand off ASM (eg Penguin) via a helicopter is far more effective than a ship launched Harpoon. Plus of course Harpoon is expensive and weighty.

And finally, any thoughts about the cannon that might be used?
Typhoon 25mm. But like the Fremantles there might be a requirement for upgrade to 57mm/76mm gun turret.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If the 76mm is chosen, are there any savings to be made by re-using the Adelaide class 76mm, of which six will be available and surplus?
weapons systems are like icebergs, its the 80% below the viewing line that has the most consideration needed. ie the below deck issues.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The SEA 1180 program is not for a corvette armed with a high end combat system, ESSM, Harpoon, etc. I don't know where this idea got injected into discussion about it. Its for a 'fast' OPV with a medium helicopter capability and a large multi use space that can operate modules for stand off MCM and hydrographic research.
Mocked up vendor solutions with such capabilities included I suspect, like your Austal MRV mention the other day with the 57mm Mk3 Bofors gun on the front of it.

And the DCP 2010 update statement on the OCV which states:

In addition, the OCV and it's systems will be able to undertake offshore and littoral warfighting roles...
Personally I wouldn't think it a bad idea to equip the OCV with a basic naval warfighting system based on a medium calibre gun as it's primary offensive capability and an integral air and surface defence capability (either medium gun based guided anti-air projectiles or missile based) along with the 25mm Typhoon / 12.7mm Mini-Typhoon it seems certain to receive.

Whether the budget caters for it or not remains to be seen. Even RAN hasn't definitely identified the systems to go onto the platform yet though.

As seen with mini-typhoon and Harpoon on the ANZAC's though, there isn't necessarily a need for these vessels to be equipped permanently with the higher end systems. A basic capability to mount systems as the mission requires seems to be the fundamental intent with this class. Particularly with the major hydrographic survey and MCM roles included as required...
 

Jhom

New Member
26-27 knots



NH90 TTH (aka MRH90)



Such a warlike mission is not a driver for the SEA 1180. When used under such circumstances as a MCM or delivery vessel it will have escort by a frigate. For warlike maritime interdiction the primary capability is the helicopter. Stand off ASM (eg Penguin) via a helicopter is far more effective than a ship launched Harpoon. Plus of course Harpoon is expensive and weighty.



Typhoon 25mm. But like the Fremantles there might be a requirement for upgrade to 57mm/76mm gun turret.
Thx for the quick reply :D, I have more questions now... 26knots would be the max speed, what about the pretended cruise/eco speed for the long patrols?

Whats the intended crew? Any extra space for housing a boarding team?

Plus, only a 25 mmer?? wow thats surprising... I was hoping for at least a 76 Oto or something similar...

Any kind of anti-missile defense?? RAM? Will it carry some form of air search radar?

And finally, I can say that the work now on Adelaide is runnig even smoother compared to Canberra (currently Im working in the bow thrusters section doing some adjustements), that means I will (probably) be finished ahead of schedule (there is a general bet going on about this in pretty much every bar in Ferrol :drunk1 )

Cheers.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thx for the quick reply :D, I have more questions now... 26knots would be the max speed, what about the pretended cruise/eco speed for the long patrols?

Whats the intended crew? Any extra space for housing a boarding team?

Plus, only a 25 mmer?? wow thats surprising... I was hoping for at least a 76 Oto or something similar...

Any kind of anti-missile defense?? RAM? Will it carry some form of air search radar?

And finally, I can say that the work now on Adelaide is runnig even smoother compared to Canberra (currently Im working in the bow thrusters section doing some adjustements), that means I will (probably) be finished ahead of schedule (there is a general bet going on about this in pretty much every bar in Ferrol :drunk1 )

Cheers.
See my below post. No systems have yet been decided on for the OCV project as yet.

It will have room for boarding teams, as special operations support is one of it's primary design requirements.

No specific information is available yet however. It's too early in the project.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
If you go this webpage:

SEA 1180 Offshore Combatant Vessel

You can download the draft requirement and briefing slides on this capability. Almost 18 months out of date and as Aussie Digger points out a long time until tender.

On combat systems it says:

Self protective measures
–Semi-autonomous or autonomous defensive system
–Small to medium range gun
–Torpedo Counter Measures
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If you go this webpage:

SEA 1180 Offshore Combatant Vessel

You can download the draft requirement and briefing slides on this capability. Almost 18 months out of date and as Aussie Digger points out a long time until tender.

On combat systems it says:

Self protective measures
–Semi-autonomous or autonomous defensive system
–Small to medium range gun
–Torpedo Counter Measures
I am seriously hoping for a large steel mono hull with all electric propulsion, a very large helo deck, hanger and multi purpose deck. A significant allocation of space and weight for the future retrofit of a full ANZAC ASMD class combat system and the facility to dramatically increase onboard power generation as well as a stern setup for launch and recovery of craft upto CB90 size would be good.
 

Jhom

New Member
I am seriously hoping for a large steel mono hull with all electric propulsion, a very large helo deck, hanger and multi purpose deck. A significant allocation of space and weight for the future retrofit of a full ANZAC ASMD class combat system and the facility to dramatically increase onboard power generation as well as a stern setup for launch and recovery of craft upto CB90 size would be good.
Yeah, that would be one hell of an "atomic ant", but I cannot see why to put the CB90... that will only add weight without improving the capacities that a medium size helo and a pair of RHIBs actually give you...
 

Sea Toby

New Member
Yeah, that would be one hell of an "atomic ant", but I cannot see why to put the CB90... that will only add weight without improving the capacities that a medium size helo and a pair of RHIBs actually give you...
Australia has plenty of Armidale IPVs with RHIBs for the north, in my mind Australia needs a few OPVs to patrol the fisheries in the Southern Ocean... Three or four NZ OPVs would be nice...
 
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