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sandman

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Bit lat in the night for a full reply gents :drunk1. But you can not remove a full combat system out of a Seahawk in a few hours, A "90" can do everything at short notice, a Romeo cannot.
I would qualify that a 90 is only 'advertised' as doing everything at short notice. The only thing that is for certain is that does NOT include delivery, nor operational implementation.

Also no fast rope insertions will be happening at short notice. And in any case as I said, the only part of Boarding Ops that should be taken into account when deciding the next helo is how it will go covering from above.

Making this decision on the perceived need to throw a stick of men down a rope would not be a wise move at all.

So things are a bit tight in hanger...Welcome to everything else in an ANZAC. I was onboard Warra for First of Class trials for the Sprogs....Still remember the Birdies hanging off it with a 6" ruler to make sure it would not have it's rotor ripped of by the hanger door ( I would of thought they would of done the measurement before then) and that was alongside.
I am aware of all things ANZAC. I think you underestimate or do not truly understand what I'm getting at. Once its in the hangar at long term lashings, cool, it can be tight but if the doors closed I'm happy. But if it

a) cannot be moved in/out the hanagar door with the ship experiencing anything more than a modest roll
b) cannot be launched or recovered in anything but a benign sea state

Then there could be problems

The 90 is significantly bigger and heavier than the current S-70, and it would monster something the size of a Seasprite. That is a fact that has profound effects when trying to conduct flight ops whilst driving the warship tactically within a screen.

Those are not trivial issues that would be easily overcome.
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
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I would qualify that a 90 is only 'advertised' as doing everything at short notice. The only thing that is for certain is that does NOT include delivery, nor operational implementation.

Also no fast rope insertions will be happening at short notice. And in any case as I said, the only part of Boarding Ops that should be taken into account when deciding the next helo is how it will go covering from above.

Making this decision on the perceived need to throw a stick of men down a rope would not be a wise move at all.



I am aware of all things ANZAC. I think you underestimate or do not truly understand what I'm getting at. Once its in the hangar at long term lashings, cool, it can be tight but if the doors closed I'm happy. But if it

a) cannot be moved in/out the hanagar door with the ship experiencing anything more than a modest roll
b) cannot be launched or recovered in anything but a benign sea state

Then there could be problems

The 90 is significantly bigger and heavier than the current S-70, and it would monster something the size of a Seasprite. That is a fact that has profound effects when trying to conduct flight ops whilst driving the warship tactically within a screen.

Those are not trivial issues that would be easily overcome.
The Sprog's where of a extremely high, but narrow design, The "90" is a fat but low design, so your concerns of flight deck/hanger traverse are not warranted IMHO.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
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I agree with some of the sentiment expressed by The Puss about the NH 90 NFH (aka MRH 90). It is a bigger, roomier helicopter and offers a range of modularity advantages to the RAN. But the due to the failure to introduce the Seasprite into service the RAN does not have the luxury to pursue ideal solutions and the NH 90 requires time to be developed and also customised to RAN needs (close and standoff ASuW weapon integration). The MH-60R offers a quicker acquisition path and easier conversion from the S-70B-2. As to fitting the MRH 90 into the Anzac hangar I’m sure that if the Anzac can be changed as much as they have in service then the hangar can be widened by 3m or so to provide the room they need.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I agree with some of the sentiment expressed by The Puss about the NH 90 NFH (aka MRH 90). It is a bigger, roomier helicopter and offers a range of modularity advantages to the RAN. But the due to the failure to introduce the Seasprite into service the RAN does not have the luxury to pursue ideal solutions and the NH 90 requires time to be developed and also customised to RAN needs (close and standoff ASuW weapon integration). The MH-60R offers a quicker acquisition path and easier conversion from the S-70B-2. As to fitting the MRH 90 into the Anzac hangar I’m sure that if the Anzac can be changed as much as they have in service then the hangar can be widened by 3m or so to provide the room they need.
The fact a helicopter has not been selected yet is an issue for the AWD project as neither design fits the baseline F-104 hanger. It is interesting also that the ANZACs use RAST and the AWDs will use ASSIST, I don't know but this may have roll on effects for the ocnfiguration of the helicopters, i.e. require a split fleet specifically configured for each of the systems.

I have heard that an MRH-90 has been landed on an ANZAC and rolled into the hanger in Sydney Harbour but haven't seen anything stating this.

Thanks for the info on the stretched ANZAC Abe, I didn't know much about it. Also on the OPC, I heard one of the issues was the RAN wasn't sure where they would get the extra PWO's they would need from but this may be a furphy.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
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Ahh, interesting, thanks mate. I wonder how different things would have turned out had the Super Lynx been acquired instead, from what I've read it seems the Lynx/Sea Skua combination has a pretty good batting average in the ASuW role (though I don't know if the RAN was keen to go with Sea Skua).
I believe the Super Lynx was being offered with the Marte ASM which turned out to the a deal killer as the RAN really wanted Penguin. Ironically the NH-90 is being offered with the MBDA Marte Mk II.
 

StoresBasher

The Bunker Group
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There's no way you could widen the hanger on an Anzac by 3 metres or less.
Your probably mistaken about the 90 in an Anzac hanger, no way would fit. Nor do I think they've even done the trials yet to even land on.
I did see a 90 on the back of Kanimbla a couple months back, that had been in her hanger.
 

Abraham Gubler

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I believe the Super Lynx was being offered with the Marte ASM which turned out to the a deal killer as the RAN really wanted Penguin. Ironically the NH-90 is being offered with the MBDA Marte Mk II.
From my understanding of the project the missile choice was separate to that of the helicopter. Different types of missiles were considered before the RAN selected the Penguin Mk 2 Mod 7. Later (97-98) the Penguin acquisition was split from the Seasprite to become its own project. It’s a shame the Penguins weren’t kept for the Seahawks. Defence estimated it would cost $130 million to modify the Seahawks for Penguin operation but gave it a “high risk” moniker – despite their being integrated on USN Seahawks – so it wasn't pursued.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
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There's no way you could widen the hanger on an Anzac by 3 metres or less.
Your probably mistaken about the 90 in an Anzac hanger, no way would fit. Nor do I think they've even done the trials yet to even land on.
I did see a 90 on the back of Kanimbla a couple months back, that had been in her hanger.
Fair enough, lucky the 90 didn't fall through Kanimbla’s deck from what I've heard about her structural integrity.

If the NH-90 won’t fit the Romeo may be an issue onboard the ANZACs as well as there isn’t that much difference in the critical overall dimensions of the two types when folded.
 

Abraham Gubler

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If the NH-90 won’t fit the Romeo may be an issue onboard the ANZACs as well as there isn’t that much difference in the critical overall dimensions of the two types when folded.
While pylons, antennas and the like are different the MH-60R is still the same sized airframe to the S-70B-2. The hangar on the Anzac is offset to starboard and there are rooms on the port side that do not contain magazines or machinery critical to ship operation. While no doubt important to the people that use them these spaces could be relocated to somewhere else in the ship and the hangar could be made wider. There is around 3m of extra beam here before you start to lose length due to the lengthwise angled superstructure sides at this point.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
From my understanding of the project the missile choice was separate to that of the helicopter. Different types of missiles were considered before the RAN selected the Penguin Mk 2 Mod 7. Later (97-98) the Penguin acquisition was split from the Seasprite to become its own project. It’s a shame the Penguins weren’t kept for the Seahawks. Defence estimated it would cost $130 million to modify the Seahawks for Penguin operation but gave it a “high risk” moniker – despite their being integrated on USN Seahawks – so it was pursued.
A real shame ref not integrating Penguin on our Seahawks. Wasn't this option also rejected because of fleet management issues relating stretching 16 airframes to continue to cover ship flights for both the ANZACs and FFGs while concurrently carrying out a major upgrade?
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Thanks very much Abe and Volkadov for the responses on those missile/helicopter systems, interesting stuff. Hadn't really heard much at all about the Seasprite/Lynx decision (besides the obvious commentary on the Seasprite as the project snowballed). :)
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
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A real shame ref not integrating Penguin on our Seahawks. Wasn't this option also rejected because of fleet management issues relating stretching 16 airframes to continue to cover ship flights for both the ANZACs and FFGs while concurrently carrying out a major upgrade?
Could be a reason why it was called "high risk". Since Seasprite was cancelled the capability assurance modifications of the Seahawk have been limited to replacing obsolescent items only to maximise their availability. I don’t know if this affected the M3M 12.7mm HMG program that was in Navy Minors because they haven’t been seen with the new guns. Though Navy might have had to cut this program to afford the stupid camo uniforms, which so says scuttlebutt cost the Navy its minors programs budget for a few years.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks very much Abe and Volkadov for the responses on those missile/helicopter systems, interesting stuff. Hadn't really heard much at all about the Seasprite/Lynx decision (besides the obvious commentary on the Seasprite as the project snowballed). :)
Well according to a person who was on the tender review committee Seasprite won because "Lynx thought they had the project in the bag and priced themselves accordingly"...

The ANAO audit on Seasprite is a good read:

ANAO - Search
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
While pylons, antennas and the like are different the MH-60R is still the same sized airframe to the S-70B-2. The hangar on the Anzac is offset to starboard and there are rooms on the port side that do not contain magazines or machinery critical to ship operation. While no doubt important to the people that use them these spaces could be relocated to somewhere else in the ship and the hangar could be made wider. There is around 3m of extra beam here before you start to lose length due to the lengthwise angled superstructure sides at this point.
Length is the issue on the AWDs, legacy Seahawks are operated from the original F-100s no problem but structural mods were required to accommodate both the Romeo and NH-90.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The fact a helicopter has not been selected yet is an issue for the AWD project as neither design fits the baseline F-104 hanger. It is interesting also that the ANZACs use RAST and the AWDs will use ASSIST, I don't know but this may have roll on effects for the ocnfiguration of the helicopters, i.e. require a split fleet specifically configured for each of the systems.
RAST and ASIST are both Indal products and backwards compatible. The different is RAST winches down the helicopter but they both use the same sort of securing system when on deck. Because the AWD is a bigger and more stable ship it should be able to land on helicopters in heavier sea states than the frigates without the need to winch them down.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
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Well according to a person who was on the tender review committee Seasprite won because "Lynx thought they had the project in the bag and priced themselves accordingly"...

The ANAO audit on Seasprite is a good read:

ANAO - Search
I've got a couple of ex Sesprite people in my team - they're mightily pi$$ed off at how the govt killed off the platform at the stage it was at. the platform was not far off being certified, and was more than able to do its mission.

there was one aspect that the govt forcibly ignored at selection, but it was govts choice - noit the militaries.

seasprite has taken a bath - but the govt is happy to ignore all the projects that they signed off on and which are going to cost us more money to fix.

political intervention into these projects is a joke - they get a free run because no one is able to respond and defend the decisions in public.

and seriously, having had to explain basic decisions to ANAO in the past I wouldn't be putting too much stock into the sanctity of their competency in writing these reports.

if they were any good they'd be screaming their lungs off about other things happening and which they're fully aware of.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I've got a couple of ex Sesprite people in my team - they're mightily pi$$ed off at how the govt killed off the platform at the stage it was at. the platform was not far off being certified, and was more than able to do its mission.

there was one aspect that the govt forcibly ignored at selection, but it was govts choice - noit the militaries.

seasprite has taken a bath - but the govt is happy to ignore all the projects that they signed off on and which are going to cost us more money to fix.

political intervention into these projects is a joke - they get a free run because no one is able to respond and defend the decisions in public.

and seriously, having had to explain basic decisions to ANAO in the past I wouldn't be putting too much stock into the sanctity of their competency in writing these reports.

if they were any good they'd be screaming their lungs off about other things happening and which they're fully aware of.
Coincidentally I came across a reference in Norman Friedman’s “U.S. Destroyers, an Illustrated Design History” to LAMPS in which the SH-2 was described as “an elderly airframe with limited potential, even though it was thoroughly rebuilt (and re-engined) for LAMPS use.” This was referring to the type in 1969/70 not 2007 so why we not only selected it for the RAN but decided to opt for reconditioned airframes over new build ones is beyond me.
 

ThePuss

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
There's no way you could widen the hanger on an Anzac by 3 metres or less.
Your probably mistaken about the 90 in an Anzac hanger, no way would fit. Nor do I think they've even done the trials yet to even land on.
I did see a 90 on the back of Kanimbla a couple months back, that had been in her hanger.
90's do and have fitted into an ANZAC hanger, in saying that it is an extremely tight fit apparently (Brake out the lube boys! :smash). Harbor trails where conducted on an east based FFH a few months back. Also whilst I bemoan the illogicalness of defense acquisitions I would like to think DMO is at least capable of only considering aircraft that actually fit into the hanger of the ships they will operate off.....mind you on second thought as mentioned in a recent post of mine there was some very worried looking birdies the first time a Sprog was wheeled into an Anzac hanger.
 
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