Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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ngatimozart

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Total weapon capability is a bit short. But as a sensor platform, quite good.
If you are talking about the ANZACs, hen probably mounting another M2 HBHMG 50 cal on them would turn them turtle :p If you mean the Hunters, they aren't DDGs but FFGs. I can't remember the VLS cells, is it 32 or 24? Plus they'll most likely have cannister launchers for SSM anyway.
 

StingrayOZ

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The Anzacs.. only a 8 cell quad packed =32 ESSM. And 8 harpoon and the 5". But as a sensor platform they are apparently pretty good. I think just carrying a Steyr AUG into the bridge could would give the designers pause. They are very much as far as they can go as a platform in terms of weapons fitout, unless you take something off.

The Hunters will get the larger more powerful CEAFAR setup, but its just a larger, higher evolution of what the Anzacs have, which is already pretty good. The hunter models so far I believe have had 32 VLS, 2 x phalax and the So in terms of a weapons upgrade over the Anzac, are a significantly better weapons platform. But they have the capability for much more. Probably wouldn't be too hard to up that to 48VLS strike, and then a bunch of self defence launchers, and still have weight and margin for other stuff. The Hunters also seem to have the largest radar mast I've seen on the type26 so far.

But as CEAFAR seems to be inline for replacing SPY-1D(V) already on the Hobarts, it must be a pretty capable system, even scaled down onto the ANZACs. I believe it doesn't really do anything longer in terms of range, but way more flexible and sensitive and smarter within that range. Certainly a very modern one. Maybe the first frigate with electronically scanned arrays for (E/F/L?) and X? The Anzacs might be armed like a mouse but they have eyes like an owl.

I wonder for how long the Brits will keep fitting artisan to the Type 26's, and choose either Ceafar2 or the SPY-7(1) thing.
 

Hazdog

Member
The Anzacs.. only a 8 cell quad packed =32 ESSM. And 8 harpoon and the 5". But as a sensor platform they are apparently pretty good. I think just carrying a Steyr AUG into the bridge could would give the designers pause. They are very much as far as they can go as a platform in terms of weapons fitout, unless you take something off.

The Hunters will get the larger more powerful CEAFAR setup, but its just a larger, higher evolution of what the Anzacs have, which is already pretty good. The hunter models so far I believe have had 32 VLS, 2 x phalax and the So in terms of a weapons upgrade over the Anzac, are a significantly better weapons platform. But they have the capability for much more. Probably wouldn't be too hard to up that to 48VLS strike, and then a bunch of self defence launchers, and still have weight and margin for other stuff. The Hunters also seem to have the largest radar mast I've seen on the type26 so far.

But as CEAFAR seems to be inline for replacing SPY-1D(V) already on the Hobarts, it must be a pretty capable system, even scaled down onto the ANZACs. I believe it doesn't really do anything longer in terms of range, but way more flexible and sensitive and smarter within that range. Certainly a very modern one. Maybe the first frigate with electronically scanned arrays for (E/F/L?) and X? The Anzacs might be armed like a mouse but they have eyes like an owl.

I wonder for how long the Brits will keep fitting artisan to the Type 26's, and choose either Ceafar2 or the SPY-7(1) thing.
I do believe that the Hunter's have the design capacity for 64 Mk41 VLS cells according to an unofficial conversation with a BAE sales rep.
 

StingrayOZ

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I wonder what we would have to give up for that number of 64. Which is more than Australia is probably looking at on its surface combatants. But its nice to have growth room. And you could probably make a find Air Defence Destroyer out of the Type 26's bones.

In the end we probably favor sensor fit-out to a shit ton of weapons. At the end of the day, only one needs to hit, you are probably better off making that one hit rather than launch many that fail, or being hit before you can launch. The Hunters having 2 x CIWS will have a significantly improve protection, a whole new inner layer, and with SM-6 a larger outer layer. Of course they can carry Sm-2 as well, so there is that middle layer the Anzacs are currently missing as well.

But I think for the medium term we will be happy with what the hunters come with. Huge missile stocks can become quite expensive to maintain and upgrade.
 

Hazdog

Member
I wonder what we would have to give up for that number of 64. Which is more than Australia is probably looking at on its surface combatants. But its nice to have growth room. And you could probably make a find Air Defence Destroyer out of the Type 26's bones.

In the end we probably favor sensor fit-out to a shit ton of weapons. At the end of the day, only one needs to hit, you are probably better off making that one hit rather than launch many that fail, or being hit before you can launch. The Hunters having 2 x CIWS will have a significantly improve protection, a whole new inner layer, and with SM-6 a larger outer layer. Of course they can carry Sm-2 as well, so there is that middle layer the Anzacs are currently missing as well.

But I think for the medium term we will be happy with what the hunters come with. Huge missile stocks can become quite expensive to maintain and upgrade.
I believe the 64 cells are a composite of different lengths of Mk41 cells; being self-defence length cells amidships and strike length cells on the bow.

This set up would enable, in my eyes, greater flexibility for the ships and greater survivability for the magazines in the case of a missile making it through the layers.

I also believe that the benefits of having extra growth room for the magazines would provide a unique frigate capability unseen anywhere in the world.
- Which would be a real asset in a high tempo, long-distance engagement.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
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US is looking at larger VLS sizes, so growth room IMO is more important that sheer cell count.
SM-3 is pretty much at the max kinetic capability that you can squeeze into a VLS.

32VLS is still a massive step up from what the Anzacs have.
 

Wombat000

Well-Known Member
IMHO, i appreciate the increased numbers of cells per hull/class.

The real issue to be considered is a % of those carried 'should' never be intended to be fired.
Some will need to be held for the return to re-munition.

Until there is a practical solution, the issue is the question of reloading cells at sea.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
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The Hunters having 2 x CIWS will have a significantly improve protection,
I am of the opinion that the 20 mm CIWS is well past it's use by date because the range is far to short to handle modern high end subsonic AShM and definitely supersonic AShM. 1,000 - 1,500 m is just not a long enough reach. By the time the missile is hit, the inertia of the debris is still enough to inflict serious damage, especially if it is a supersonic missile. That's why I advocate the 30 mm Goalkeeper (uses the 30 mm Avenger gun from the A-10) or the Rheinemettall 35 mm Millennium gun, because both have greater range and hitting power. Yes both might cost more than the Phalanx, but still cheaper than losing a ship to significant damage or sinking. Just because the USN uses the Phalanx and hasn't changed, doesn't make it holy writ. They're a bit behind the 8 ball on a few things at the moment and that's one of them.
 

ngatimozart

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Until there is a practical solution, the issue is the question of reloading cells at sea.
That there is. The second issue is cost. Some of the missiles are US$3 million each so a load out is going to be very expensive especially across a fleet of 12 ships. So a middle sized navy such as the RAN is going to be constrained by cost somewhat as well, unless its wartime.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I am of the opinion that the 20 mm CIWS is well past it's use by date because the range is far to short to handle modern high end subsonic AShM and definitely supersonic AShM. 1,000 - 1,500 m is just not a long enough reach. By the time the missile is hit, the inertia of the debris is still enough to inflict serious damage, especially if it is a supersonic missile. That's why I advocate the 30 mm Goalkeeper (uses the 30 mm Avenger gun from the A-10) or the Rheinemettall 35 mm Millennium gun, because both have greater range and hitting power. Yes both might cost more than the Phalanx, but still cheaper than losing a ship to significant damage or sinking. Just because the USN uses the Phalanx and hasn't changed, doesn't make it holy writ. They're a bit behind the 8 ball on a few things at the moment and that's one of them.
The latest models of the Canadian type 26 suggest they might be fitting it with Lockheed's Extensible Launching System and perhaps using Seaceptor in the CIADS role. I am sure Australian and Canadian defence officials are sharing notes on this. It would be interesting to hear why Canada is taking a different path to Australia and Britain in not specifying the Phalanx system. In Britain's case I can sort of understand why they are opting for Phalanx since they apparently have around 50 systems in service or in storage. In Australia's case though we would need to buy additional systems, so it might be worth taking the time and explore a few other options.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I am of the opinion that the 20 mm CIWS is well past it's use by date because the range is far to short to handle modern high end subsonic AShM and definitely supersonic AShM. 1,000 - 1,500 m is just not a long enough reach. By the time the missile is hit, the inertia of the debris is still enough to inflict serious damage, especially if it is a supersonic missile. That's why I advocate the 30 mm Goalkeeper (uses the 30 mm Avenger gun from the A-10) or the Rheinemettall 35 mm Millennium gun, because both have greater range and hitting power. Yes both might cost more than the Phalanx, but still cheaper than losing a ship to significant damage or sinking. Just because the USN uses the Phalanx and hasn't changed, doesn't make it holy writ. They're a bit behind the 8 ball on a few things at the moment and that's one of them.
I've come full circle, apparently they are still quite useful for newer threats. Anything significant (like a missile) should have been cleaned up before getting to that inner layer. These are again Frigates, they are not primary air defence ships. Two CIWS is still two more than the AU Anzacs currently pack. The hunters also have 2x30mm guns as well, so again, a fair compromise for something that isn't going to be tier 1 air defence. The CIWS are great on things like drones, surface boats, decoys etc. Chinese missiles aren't quite a meganormous as the big soviet stuff So I would imagine 20mm isn't as much a deal breaker as it would be with some of the larger navy fielded soviet stuff.

More importantly space and weight is reserved by the Phalanx systems for the future. I don't expect Phalanx to live forever. But I do think its perfectly fine for the first 3 Hunters.

It seems that many navies have paused on adopting Goalkeeper more widely (for example the UK). It doesn't feature on the new ships. Perhaps that was due in part to the upgrade issues back in 2015 and the fact it only really completed its upgrades back in 2018/2019. Goalkeeper does buy some range but it is still in the 1500-500m range. Maybe RAM is a better option. Maybe CAMM?

Total VLS capacity is a touchy issue. Whats more valuable a ship with 96 SM-2 Block 1's, or a ship with 16 SM-6's?

I would assume if we were going up against anything hairy, we would have a Burke based (US/JP/SK) ship with us chock a block with SM, or at least a Hobart and some sort of air support. With CEC and our networking capability, an individual unit doesn't have to be all things. Our ships have good and bespoke/unique radars and will field the latest air defense missiles on the latest aegis systems.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
By the time the missile is hit, the inertia of the debris is still enough to inflict serious damage, especially if it is a supersonic missile.
This is not only a factor of the speed of the missile but also the height at which it is traveling as gravity is a constant of 9.8 meters per second squared once lift is lost. As the speed of sound is approx 344 meters per second, there is a height to distance equation in regard to how effective the phalanx can be. What would also need to be added to the calculation is the drag of the destroyed missile pieces which would be a lot higher than the original as the phalanx is based on making direct hits. I am not sure of the reason, but the RN did start using the Goalkeeper and there were some statement"s in the late 80's that this would become the standard, but has reverted back to the phalanx. Of course a modern goalkeeper would be a very different animal today than back in the 80's as is the phalanx.
My personal view is that a combination of missiles and guns is the best approach giving a multi layered defence and the more layers the better for instance phalanx, RAM , then CAMM.
 
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Hazdog

Member
This is not only a factor of the speed of the missile but also the height at which it is traveling as gravity is a constant of 9.8 meters per second squared once lift is lost. As the speed of sound is approx 344 meters per second, there is a height to distance equation in regard to how effective the phalanx can be. What would also need to be added to the calculation is the drag of the destroyed missile pieces which would be a lot higher than the original as the phalanx is based on making direct hits. I am not sure of the reason, but the RN did start using the Goalkeeper and there were some statement"s in the late 80's that this would become the standard, but has reverted back to the phalanx. Of course a modern goalkeeper would be a very different animal today than back in the 80's as is the phalanx.
My personal view is that a combination of missiles and guns is the best approach giving a multi layered defence and the more layers the better for instance phalanx, RAM , then CAMM.
I'd say the sheer fact that the Phalanx is essentially a bolt and shoot system compared to the deck penetration of the Goalkeeper is why the RN did not adopt the system further. Along with the ability for the lower weight to allow multiple mounting positions of the Phalanx.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
As a purely hypothetical exercise when could have we have built 2 more Collins class.

Ideally as part of the first batch. This really would have required work laying down around 95 or 96 for boat 1 and boat 2 around 97 or 98. Actual ordering and planning would have to go back to the mid 90's, the original option for 8 expired while Beasley was still defmin, and he regrets it.

The other time to have done it was in or before 2009 when we announce sea1000. In ten years we could have primed the pump planned, designed it to fit around the AWD/Hunter builds and done it that way. This would have basically been a mini-son of collins. So pretty much all the upgrades we now want and have to do, but in two new builds. This would have included time to get the whole thing sorted before upgrading the existing boats. The two older boats could then have been sold onto Singapore pushing the swedes out.

Pretty much all the things you otherwise mention need to happen anyway now we are going to have to substantially modernize Collins, and build Attack class. It would have just happened earlier. It would also highlight how much effort its going to take to get the industry side all together.


The first thing that will be pulled out of Collins and driven out to sea and pushed off is the Hedemora diesels. Many of Collins problems will be solved by deep sixing those boat anchors.
Are you sure about when the options for the two additional subs expired? Beazley's service as MinDef ended in early 1990, around when the first sub was first laid down, and about six years before the first sub was commissioned. I would normally expect options for additional vessels to last at least until part way through a multi-vessel build programme. Options that expire right away IMO would be a sign of bad contract writing, as it makes customers unable to consider how well (or poorly) a build programme is doing prior to forcing the customer to make a choice.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I'd say the sheer fact that the Phalanx is essentially a bolt and shoot system compared to the deck penetration of the Goalkeeper is why the RN did not adopt the system further. Along with the ability for the lower weight to allow multiple mounting positions of the Phalanx.
I cannot say which is the better system in a comparison between Phalanx or Goalkeeper.
My observation is that goalkeeper has not being acquired for a new build ship of any navy for sometime.
South Korea's second ship of the Dokdo Class which is scheduled for Commissioning this year is to have Phalanx in preference to the original ship which had Phalanx.
I think whatever attributes Goalkeeper has, it's future rests only with the systems currently in service.


My take is that a CIWS is just that, a kinetic response to threats in the last couple of KM's.
At this stage layered defence has failed and you now have a few seconds for either a gun based system to perform it's magic, or have a passive defence system do the same.
I'd place short range SAM systems in a category beyond this distance.
So for the immediate future what are the realistic options for western navy's today.
I'd suggest not many.
Phalanx
Millennium Gun
40 mm and 57 mm with 3P ammunition

Any other suggestions as I think that's it in 2020

For the RAN, do we continue with Phalanx or explore other options?

Does the 40 mm on the new Arafura class suggest a window into the future for ship close in defence.

Hopefully it covers the roles of the Typhoon Bushmaster and Phalanx systems wrapped up into one defence system.

If so, we may need to look at what cannon defends the fleet for that crucial last couple of KM's

Thoughts

Regards S
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I cannot say which is the better system in a comparison between Phalanx or Goalkeeper.
My observation is that goalkeeper has not being acquired for a new build ship of any navy for sometime.
South Korea's second ship of the Dokdo Class which is scheduled for Commissioning this year is to have Phalanx in preference to the original ship which had Phalanx.
I think whatever attributes Goalkeeper has, it's future rests only with the systems currently in service.


My take is that a CIWS is just that, a kinetic response to threats in the last couple of KM's.
At this stage layered defence has failed and you now have a few seconds for either a gun based system to perform it's magic, or have a passive defence system do the same.
I'd place short range SAM systems in a category beyond this distance.
So for the immediate future what are the realistic options for western navy's today.
I'd suggest not many.
Phalanx
Millennium Gun
40 mm and 57 mm with 3P ammunition

Any other suggestions as I think that's it in 2020

For the RAN, do we continue with Phalanx or explore other options?

Does the 40 mm on the new Arafura class suggest a window into the future for ship close in defence.

Hopefully it covers the roles of the Typhoon Bushmaster and Phalanx systems wrapped up into one defence system.

If so, we may need to look at what cannon defends the fleet for that crucial last couple of KM's

Thoughts

Regards S
The 40mm on the Arafura Class suggests to me nothing more, than that is what the successful bidder suggested in it’s tender and RAN didn’t care enough about the capability, or have the budget to consider further.

Can the weapon punch holes in a civilian ship accurately enough and be used as a basic self defence capability in an emergency? Yep. That’ll do then...

Drawing any further conclusions than this about what RAN ‘chose’ is drawing a longer bow than necessary, IMHO.
 

SteveR

Active Member
The 40mm on the Arafura Class suggests to me nothing more, than that is what the successful bidder suggested in it’s tender and RAN didn’t care enough about the capability, or have the budget to consider further.

Can the weapon punch holes in a civilian ship accurately enough and be used as a basic self defence capability in an emergency? Yep. That’ll do then...

Drawing any further conclusions than this about what RAN ‘chose’ is drawing a longer bow than necessary, IMHO.
Still a whole lot better than the our Fremantle patrol boats which mounted WW2 era manually trained and loaded Bofors 40mm,Fremantle-class patrol boat - Wikipedia
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The bofors on the patrol boats were only mounted so they didn't have to pay port fees as they were then military ships. Or that was how the rumor went. Did they ever even fire them on the Fremantles?

The 40mm L/OTO isn't that bad. We could have stuck with 20 or 25mm typhoon mounts. The 40mm round has useful range 12500m horizontal and 8700m vertical. That gives useful reach in the mission its probably ever likely to ever need to.

The Canadians mount a 25mm on a 6000t AOPV. In comparison the 40mm has a higher rate of fire, longer range, more capable ammunition, and significantly more punch. On a OPV, its not a terrible choice.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
The bofors on the patrol boats were only mounted so they didn't have to pay port fees as they were then military ships. Or that was how the rumor went. Did they ever even fire them on the Fremantles?

The 40mm L/OTO isn't that bad. We could have stuck with 20 or 25mm typhoon mounts. The 40mm round has useful range 12500m horizontal and 8700m vertical. That gives useful reach in the mission its probably ever likely to ever need to.

The Canadians mount a 25mm on a 6000t AOPV. In comparison the 40mm has a higher rate of fire, longer range, more capable ammunition, and significantly more punch. On a OPV, its not a terrible choice.
Seems like an awful long way for a 40mm round.
Should that maybe be feet?
MB
 
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