Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[alexsa]

Thirty years ago there were approxiamately 100 hundred ships registered in Australia , now its down to 14 , Foreign registered ships avoid safety and wages that are due to Australian registered vessels ,also transporting goods and services by trucks on the roads can be cheaper but there are arguments that trucking companies dont pay apprproiate compensation for the road usage wear and tear of roads ,strategically it may make sense to develop a Australian martime resource ,but it as always comes down to money and the suspicions of the present government that that such a development would only be to protect merchant unions

Sorry where did you get 14 from..... it is utter crap. Care should be taken on quoting numbers sprouted by others. There are around 70 vessels above 500 gross tonnage certified for international trade are on the Australian register. This is a crappy number but not the 14 commonly quoted.

As a matter of accuracy there are over 12000 vessels on the Australian register with a large proportion being pleasure craft and fishing vessels. There are a considerable number of commercial trading vessels on the register but most are on the smaller side. As a plus vessels are being replaced with larger tonnage on the Bass Strait trade.

Australia have an International Register that was designed to attract tonnage that was introduced by the ALP. The problem is that the carrots to attract operators were rubbish and did not match comparable registered such as Singapore. As such it is not attractive and not being used.

Australian miners register their tonnage with Singapore on this basis (and base their fleet management there). The unions were an issue and the agreements for some members were excessively generous and makes the cost of operating very high.

 

[seaspear]

These article suggests there is a shortage of Australian registered vessels ,the conversation piece was where I got the 14 from would be happy if these articles were wrong
Does Australia need a merchant shipping fleet? | The Strategist
How 'flags of convenience' have shrunk Australia's merchant fleet

 

[Brucedog]

Separate from total lift, do we have the right mix of craft to land the force/equipment quickly enough? I understand there is only so much we can do by ourselves. Is there still a general need for an LST and/or LCH's?

Damen give their LST 120 crew as 22. Would we run one with that few crew?

Hope I'm not being annoying but your responses have me thinking much more deeply than i anticipated.

 

[Stampede]

Regarding any additional LHD for the RAN,

I know they are a great asset, but,

Is the Army happy with troop and equipment capacity of the individual ships?

If not, how much bigger would be enogh?
Is a simple stretch of the existing design enough or would something more complex required?
Would we design out the ski jump? And gain extra landing spot?

Hi Brucedog

Thanks for the post

Regarding an additional LHD.
My take is the same as for asking for any piece of kit in the ADF.
What is the need and how will it be funded?
Is this the most prudent way to allocate defence funds and resources to man and sustain this new or additional capability.

We will all have our own answers.

My personal view is that the Canberra Class is a wonderful ADF asset and I can see a third ship of the class providing excellent service for the Commonwealth in the decades to come.
But an additional ship would probably require some additional fleet assets across the Fleet to maintain some balance of capability;so suggest some extra refuelling capacity and fleet escorts would be required.
The later may not be destroyers, but certainly some more robust weaponry on the Arafura Class would be prudent across a range of contingency's.


As I doubt any defence projects and capabilities across the services would be sacrificed to accommodate the above, this leads to the only other alternative,that of increasing defence funds.
As I'm not optimistic such funds would be forth coming to fund the above, I suggest we concentrate on getting what we have up to speed first and ensure our future defence acquisitions are funded and managed well and not consigned to the procrastination bin.

Regards S

 

[alexsa]

These article suggests there is a shortage of Australian registered vessels ,the conversation piece was where I got the 14 from would be happy if these articles were wrong
Does Australia need a merchant shipping fleet? | The Strategist
How 'flags of convenience' have shrunk Australia's merchant fleet

Just to reiterate .... our large ship fleet is not large but it is not 14. This figure has been bandied about for a while with some claiming the number is less than 10. It is possible the number may drop further.

The article has a number of issues .. by way of an example the article claims the two toll ships are the largest in use. The four northwest LNG carriers operating out of the NW are larger at 272m LOA. Basically the research is poor.

 

[Stampede]

Out of curiosity

Does anyone have an idea as to the fuel capacity of our Hobart , ANZAC and former Adelaide Class ships.


Regards S

 

[OldNavy63]

I see that ADF is sending HMAS Choules, MV Sycamore, 1x Chinook, 2x Black Hawks, 1x MRH-90 and 2x C27J's down to East Gippsland to assist. Best wishes and luck to all involved.

1. Does anyone know if HMAS Choules is the currently designated HADR vessel? Or have they accelerated her readiness?
2. As an aviation training vessel, how would we expect MV Sycamore to be used? (it's certainly of a decent size) What is she fitted with to be of best use?

Ref: https://www.theage.com.au/national/...victoria-counts-the-cost-20191231-p53nyi.html

MV Sycamore has a flight deck capable of operating all RAN helos, can accommodate 70 odd persons (and probably many more in temp emergency situations), in addition to its civilian crew.

MV Sycamore | Royal Australian Navy

The shallow draught would permit navigating closer inshore and in smaller ports than HMAS Choules complimenting the more capable LSD and able to work in conjunction with the larger vessel’s LCUs, sea boats and its own RHIBs.

 

[seaspear]

Just to reiterate .... our large ship fleet is not large but it is not 14. This figure has been bandied about for a will with some claiming the number is less than 10. It is possible the number may drop further.

The article has a number of issues .. by way of an example the article claims the two toll ships are the largest in use. The four northwest LNG carriers operating out of the NW are larger at 272m LOA. Basically the research is poor.

Possibly more articles that you would take issue with ,but does mention those four carriers you mentioned ,if there is a list of registered ships of suitable size and capability to assist in a crisis are you able to provide it please that counters these articles
Shorten’s fleet addresses security issues
Australia's private shipping fleet is shrinking, and defence analysts are worried

 

[ASSAIL]

Possibly more articles that you would take issue with ,but does mention those four carriers you mentioned ,if there is a list of registered ships of suitable size and capability to assist in a crisis are you able to provide it please that counters these articles
Shorten’s fleet addresses security issues
Australia's private shipping fleet is shrinking, and defence analysts are worried

The fact that our merchant fleet has dwindled is obviously a problem for our strategic preparedness there is no doubt but a hair brained scheme to build “up to 12 hulls and have a commercial operator run them defies commercial logic.
The reason why our fleet has declined has everything to do with commercial viability.
Yes, in industries such as oil and gas and RPT (Regular Public Transport ie Bass Str ferries)) where returns are large there are cost margins which can absorb the extravagant demands of the MUA but in general cargo it’s simply not profitable. Six figure wages are the norm for General Duties ratings and that’s for equal time on/off. Most are paid over Award rates and If you care to check the Industrial Awards and EBA’s(Enterprise Bargaining Agreements) make sure to check the penalties and allowances which more than double the remuneration (never mentioned by those seeking to justify the quantum)
Unless there are huge government subsidies provided the scheme simply won’t work.

 

[seaspear]

I have recollections of a family member doing very nicely over twenty years ago on these merchant ships , at the same time being told of of other countries merchant fleets and how well the ships were crewed in safety and working conditions ,it should not be in the too hard basket to redevelop a merchant fleet that can assist this country because of a reluctance to negotiate with unions

 

[Todjaeger]

I have recollections of a family member doing very nicely over twenty years ago on these merchant ships , at the same time being told of of other countries merchant fleets and how well the ships were crewed in safety and working conditions ,it should not be in the too hard basket to redevelop a merchant fleet that can assist this country because of a reluctance to negotiate with unions

You seem to be overlooking something that is not defence-related, but which does very much impact the idea of rebuilding/restoring an Australian merchant marine/cargo fleet.

Such a capability is in Australia's strategic interests, but it is not in the self-interests of the MUA members to cede gains they have made from demands made in the past, and what is in Australia's strategic interests is not their member's primary interests.

 

[seaspear]

I do not overlook this difficulty of negotiation with a powerful union and have some memories of the Patricks dispute on the waterfront as an exampleof of how not to get things done and how some participants as told to me travelled on mitary passports for overseas training despite what was stated in parliament of the governments knowledge .
But coming back to the original discussion and rebuilding our merchant fleet as a strategic importance should not be in the too hard basket because of these challenges

 

[Todjaeger]

I do not overlook this difficulty of negotiation with a powerful union and have some memories of the Patricks dispute on the waterfront as an exampleof of how not to get things done and how some participants as told to me travelled on mitary passports for overseas training despite what was stated in parliament of the governments knowledge .
But coming back to the original discussion and rebuilding our merchant fleet as a strategic importance should not be in the too hard basket because of these challenges

From a defence perspective a rebuilt merchant fleet is of strategic importance, but a merchant fleet is a commercial entity or collection of them and therefore requires either subsidies or a relevant business model and opportunity to be and stay commercially viable. It is not a question of whether it is "too hard" or not, how much it would cost and who would pay for it? Commercial shipping companies seem to have largely gotten out of the general cargo shipping business in Australia (or at least using Australian-flagged/crewed vessels) because it had become either less profitable or outright unprofitable to do so. That situation would need to change before the merchant fleet could realistically start to be rebuilt.

Keep in mind also that any Australian flagged/crewed cargo vessel would also be essentially competing on the international shipping market with foreign flagged/crewed vessels which do seem to have lower operating costs, and likely providing greater earnings/profit than an Australian vessel could make carrying general cargo.

 

[ngatimozart]

These article suggests there is a shortage of Australian registered vessels ,the conversation piece was where I got the 14 from would be happy if these articles were wrong
Does Australia need a merchant shipping fleet? | The Strategist
How 'flags of convenience' have shrunk Australia's merchant fleet

If you follow the links in the Conversation article they have one, Now it’s just 14, that states "The number of large vessels in Australia has shrunk to about 13, while just 30 years ago there were 100." (emphasis mine). The full story from the link is: Australia's private shipping fleet is shrinking, and defence analysts are worried. Now I have a slight problem with that because how have they defined large vessels; are they > 5,000 tonnes displacement, 20,000 tonnes displacement, 50,000 tonnes displacement or what? Basically what entities comprise that set of 14? Therefore, I would discredit that source as being unreliable and invalid, because it lacks sufficient detail about how that number was arrived at.

 

[oldsig127]

Following up by extracting the entire 12,000+ registrations in the Australian register.
I've sorted the file by ship length because the register file available doesn't give displacements, and deleted the FPSOs and Gas tankers as of no use whatever in the matter at hand.

Note that in the thirty longest vessels Ocean Shield, Aurora Australis, Sycamore and Stoker appear. Bezant falls just off the bottom of the list. I'll leave it to the experts to clarify which of these would be useful, because I'm only able to guess that the various RO-RO ships would show promise.

oldsig

(edit for clarity - I recognise some of the barges by name as self unloading barges used to tranship ore. Unless the Navy wants to deliver bauxite we can probably ignore those ;-) )

 

[alexsa]

Possibly more articles that you would take issue with ,but does mention those four carriers you mentioned ,if there is a list of registered ships of suitable size and capability to assist in a crisis are you able to provide it please that counters these articles
Shorten’s fleet addresses security issues
Australia's private shipping fleet is shrinking, and defence analysts are worried

Yes it mentions the four gas buggies but gets the vessel sizing wrong. Yes our fleet is too small but both sides of politics have failed completely to resolve this since the heydays of the 70’s. Operating costs (including crew) have resulted in steady reductions since then. The International Register Was designed to resolved this but it simply withers on the vine for lack of suitable incentives and support. I would note that if the International Register did take off then the majority of ships we are likely to get will be bulk carriers which are of very limited utility for defence operations but are central to Australia’s economy.

The question of large is an issue as a 500 GT offshore vessel may have more utility than a 2000 tonne self propelled barge as mentioned by others. The reason I use 500 gross tonnage is these vessels are required to comply fully will all relevant conventions (parts of SOLAS do not apply to vessels below 500 GT).

If you want an accurate number of vessels that can operate internationally above 500 tonnes it is a simply case of seeking that information from the register (which is operated by AMSA). And I can tell it is around 70 (it does go up and down). This number does not include the larger domestic vessels that are not certified for international operations.

My issue is the selective and/or inaccurate reporting of figures.

If tonnage is needed in an emergency then we are not limited to Australian owned vessels as such tonnage can be demise or time chartered. A demise charter is often used as the ship owner(s) will not necessarily operate the vessel and it can be flagged in the country where the operator (the holder of the demise charter) is resident.

Finally .... just for the hell of it ..... the 70 odd vessels does not include other regulated Australian vessels on the register that are certified for trading operations such as the FLNG Prelude and other offshore facilities. As an aside the FLNG prelude is the largest ship in the world (technically it is a ship) and is Australian flagged.

 

[alexsa]

Following up by extracting the entire 12,000+ registrations in the Australian register.
I've sorted the file by ship length because the register file available doesn't give displacements, and deleted the FPSOs and Gas tankers as of no use whatever in the matter at hand.

Note that in the thirty longest vessels Ocean Shield, Aurora Australis, Sycamore and Stoker appear. Bezant falls just off the bottom of the list. I'll leave it to the experts to clarify which of these would be useful, because I'm only able to guess that the various RO-RO ships would show promise.

oldsig

(edit for clarity - I recognise some of the barges by name as self unloading barges used to tranship ore. Unless the Navy wants to deliver bauxite we can probably ignore those ;-) )

Good day Mate

The register does not use displacement in any case. Tonnage is in Gross and Net Tonnage as per the 69 Tonnage Convention. Gross Tonnage is driven by carrying capacity but this can disguise a large ship given how the rules work.

I suspect Besant was simply missed as Stoker and Besant are pretty close in size. It is worth noting that the one area where increased ship size is occurring, and vessels are being replaced, is the Bass Strait trade. We have the two new RO-RO Toll vessels, the new Searoad Mersey (with another coming) and two new large fast ferries.

As a critical side issue ..... air pollution requirements of MARPOL Annex VI is going to make much to the current tonnage non-viable in the longer term as GHG emissions are to to dramatically cut from 2030 and the SOx requirements kicked in on 01 Janaury 2020. The new Bass Strait vessels have got this covered as these will either comply with the IGF Code or be IGF ready. So at least one sector is moving forward.

You can expect to see a change in fuels for these ships in order to meet the cuts and this is evident from the fact a number of LNG power bulk carriers are being built for the Australian trade. Basically the world fleet is about to enter its most challenging decades as fuel oil ceases to be an option for powering ships. It is going to be interesting but none of this is picked up in any of the papers referred to above. If the papers really wanted to make a point they would identify such measures as challenges to vessel availability (noting this may also include opportunities).

 

[ASSAIL]

Does anyone have information regarding the vulnerability or otherwise of the Twofold Bay (near Eden close to the NSW/Victorian border for those not familiar with our geography) munitions storage depot?
When I see the fireground maps and look at the various reports it appears the entire area is a firestorm so here hoping it’s well protected and defended.

 

[Stampede]

I knew this site was a great find. (I'm still working my way through the backlog). So many aspects to consider.

How much more uplift do we need for a Brigade? What would be the best platform, LHD, LSD, LPD, LST?

Could Australia set up an RFA style organisation to reduce manning and costs? Or do our unions make it impossible?
Is something in the Daman LST120 size a possible LCH replacement? Might be a little slow to operate with an ARG? Would 6 be enough if they were suitable? They would also be very handy among the islands in a HADR role.

Brucedog

An article you may find of interest

Defence Connect


Regards S

 

[Brucedog]

Thanks Stampede. Was interesting.

Did you/anyone read the comments below the article? What a bunch of nut jobs! Is sentence structure still taught in schools?

So, do we go with the "known quantity" of another LHD or invest in another type that increses flexibility and/or fills in gaps the LHD's don't cover.......? Can we aford to do both? Can we aford not too?

I just don't know enough to have an educated opinion.

How much of which type(s) is best to provide the extra uplift we need for a Brigade?