Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There is no point to LST panic acquisitions. Just because there is currently nothing painted Haze Grey doesn’t mean the capability doesn’t exist. A simple charter or an emergency take up from trade is always possible.
There is a plethora of quite large, albeit slow, landing craft operating throughout northern Australia, many of which would be suitable.
I’ve linked the Seaswift, operating from Cairns and Darwin and the largest of these companies FYI

LCT Malu Explorer - Sea Swift
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Tbh how many nation states buy navy ship's from on auction sites?
I expect it was part of a plan to raise awareness of the sale, or light a fire. $1m was just a bid that didn't meet the reserve.
Doesn't mean a serious interest from a friendly nation wouldn't or currently isn't being assessed. The first thing they would do is pull the auction.
I don't think it is Australia they would be talking to.

Australia has much bigger plans. As we manoeuvre to get an usmc LHD and possibly a full ARG home ported in Darwin.
America's $300 million push to expand naval facilities in northern Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Tbh how many nation states buy navy ship's from on auction sites?
I expect it was part of a plan to raise awareness of the sale, or light a fire. $1m was just a bid that didn't meet the reserve.
Doesn't mean a serious interest from a friendly nation wouldn't or currently isn't being assessed. The first thing they would do is pull the auction.
I don't think it is Australia they would be talking to.

Australia has much bigger plans. As we manoeuvre to get an usmc LHD and possibly a full ARG home ported in Darwin.
America's $300 million push to expand naval facilities in northern Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Please don't give junior any more bad ideas!:eek:
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Tbh how many nation states buy navy ship's from on auction sites?
I expect it was part of a plan to raise awareness of the sale, or light a fire. $1m was just a bid that didn't meet the reserve.
Doesn't mean a serious interest from a friendly nation wouldn't or currently isn't being assessed. The first thing they would do is pull the auction.
I don't think it is Australia they would be talking to.

Australia has much bigger plans. As we manoeuvre to get an usmc LHD and possibly a full ARG home ported in Darwin.
America's $300 million push to expand naval facilities in northern Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
I’ve already posted my ideas about Glyde Point’s suitability as a Port but anything is possible. What I don’t believe is possible is a new port being developed there for say AUD 300m, maybe a barge landing with a holding yard which is totally exposed to the NW monsoon.
I think the storey is a “wishful thinking” exercise by a desperate NT govt trying any avenue to kickstart a stalled economy and some leaked info to a gullible ABC.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Please don't give junior any more bad ideas!:eek:
I don't think the Americans will sell to Canada. Canada should stop feeding on stuff that is for small developing nations.

But the Philippines are pretty desperate, they enacted the US-Philippines defense pact, ironically, Canada won't sell to the Philippines. The obvious thing the US can do is offer up any ships of the type they are currently operating. Which would kind of explain the oddness of the whole thing.

I’ve already posted my ideas about Glyde Point’s suitability as a Port but anything is possible. What I don’t believe is possible is a new port being developed there for say AUD 300m, maybe a barge landing with a holding yard which is totally exposed to the NW monsoon.
I think the storey is a “wishful thinking” exercise by a desperate NT govt trying any avenue to kickstart a stalled economy and some leaked info to a gullible ABC.
I don't think the American have said exactly where it will be built, I think people just point at the new road and say it will be there. But there is potentially, significant US funding, which is likely to be matched dollar for dollar by Australian funding, if its is approved. Lombrum naval base has hit snags apparently, even if it went ahead, they want something significant and secure and they want something north. Maybe they will just forcibly acquire Darwins port. Maybe its just a training area type of thing.

US makes $300m push to expand naval facilities in the NT

Interesting times.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Navy facilities in Darwin are already being expanded including a new wharf at HMAS Larrakeyah, a wharf capable of berthing LHDs.
I see little gain for the USN in expanding outside Darwin harbour.
Landbridge(Chinese company) has leased the commercial port facilities but they don’t control the entire harbour. There are independent x2 LNG facilities (1x ConocoPhillips Phillips, 1x Inpex) the RAN has total control of their movements and it would be wrong to think the port is totally controlled by Landbridge. The Harbour Master is an NT government employee but the commercial port has an “Operations Manager”
I think the whole anti Chinese sentiment regarding the lease is overblown and made more concerning by the resistance to the lease by such strategic luminaries as Peter Jennings from ASPI. Maybe I’m just naive but I can’t see Landbridge packing up the port and taking it with them in a crisis, intelligence activity maybe but crippling the port?

Larrakeyah Barracks Redevelopment Project : Department of Defence
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Foreign Min Marise Payne has confirmed that the USN will spend the AUD300 in Darwin (sorry no link online in The Australian).
What was not clear is the detail of the infrastructure and Payne referred to funds to support the USMC rotation of 2,500 Marines in Darwin.
This funding may well be for port infrastructure but may also be for barracks and other ground facilities.
Watch this space!
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I haven't looked at this today, but as of yesterday this was in the Senate appropriations bill but not in the house bill. So it could be something added by somebody in the senate for their own purposes or in there for any reason (more wall money?), not all of which are actually related to real US government intentions.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06...es-darwin-adf-nt-gunn-point-military/11222600
"A nearly-$500 million expansion has been taking place at the Larrakeyah Barracks, as have hundreds of millions of dollars worth of upgrades at the RAAF Base Darwin and RAAF Base Tindal, near Katherine."

So there is quite a bit being spent already, as you mention, The additional upgrades might not anything spectacular, I think people forget how much airport and naval port infrastructure costs. I recall there taking a long process of negotiations in setting up the whole marine rotation thing.

I think the whole anti Chinese sentiment regarding the lease is overblown and made more concerning by the resistance to the lease by such strategic luminaries as Peter Jennings from ASPI. Maybe I’m just naive but I can’t see Landbridge packing up the port and taking it with them in a crisis, intelligence activity maybe but crippling the port?
I think it is overblown in terms of realities on the ground. I think its worthy of mindfulness. We often jump up and down when some small pacific island nation signs a deal with China, or a Chinese firm, yet we do the same. I hope that Australia is sort of the middle ground where Chinese interest and US interest are effectively in the same direction and there can be a coexistence. I don't think there was any serious concerns about the Chinese lease, but just sensitivities and optics. But give people enough rope and they will make a 30 second ad claiming the Chinese intend to land a million man army at Darwin without anyone noticing.

Its this same paranoia that made us install guns in Sydney harbor to stop the "Russians" in the 1850's. So it isn't new. We should constantly evaluate things and have those discussions. I think at least Australia is assessing and being active.

Certainly it seems to make very good sense to increase US capability in and around Australia. One thing is clear is that Australia is very good at being the grease in the region that can bridge between the US and other countries. Australia has a large range of capabilities and the sort of exercises and relations that can be very useful.

from the Australian
“There are significant plans under the US force posture initiative ... I signed an agreement on some of those plans with former Defence Secretary Jim Mattis myself,” Senator Payne told Sky News.

“Most importantly, this is a matter that the US are proceeding with through their budget processes and we would expect that to be the case.

“The force posture initiatives are a very public and well-known engagement between Australia and the United States.

“What it’s enable us to do is to work more closely in the region. To engage on those key issues of security and stability, to work with our neighbours in Indonesia, in Malaysia, in the Philippines.”

Senator Payne said this weekend’s AUSMIN talks were a sign of the US and Australia’s “100 years of mateship” and were key to maintaining the nation’s most important strategic relationship.
I would imagine it would help make the Singaporeans a little more comfortable too. There is a presence, but it doesn't have to be on any of their soils, and backed by a regional player who can manage the relationship I guess its how the nonaligned states intend to operate in a future where "its complicated".
 

Hazdog

Member
Osborne shipyard update.


Motoring along now. Should be very impressive when its finished.
Are the facilities built with room for expansion if required in war-time?

If so, and if publicly available.
What are the capabilities of the yard in a war-time situation?
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Frantic war building is, unlikely. The war is usually over before you have finished brand new, from scratch ships. You need the pipeline primed and loaded with works in progress. This is why we need continuous ship building.

Hard to say. The video shows 4 destroyers in progress outside of the internal spaces. Building 22 can house it looks like two inside. Henderson will also likely have some capacity, housing one/Two AWD inside and there are other places that could build sections like we did for the AWD. Henderson is currently building the modules for the OPV's which are then assembled at ASC in Osborne. I doubt they will ever be "full capacity" in terms of maxium at a single time hull builds.

They are significant in size, and technology. They will quite easily meet our needs. We will need to pace our builds so we keep it sustainable. The building size and capacity is huge. Osborne will also get its sub facilities as well.

We would easily be able to accommodate additional nations needs, if required. If NZ wanted 3 Hunters for example, I imagine tempo could be picked up, work allocated and it would barely sweat the facilities. If it wanted 6 OPVs, again, not much of a problem. Plenty of space, plenty of steel. Would just need more workers to come on board.

The biggest issue we will have is keeping them all ticking along, all 3 active production lines with continuous builds.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Frantic war building is, unlikely. The war is usually over before you have finished brand new, from scratch ships. You need the pipeline primed and loaded with works in progress. This is why we need continuous ship building.
I agree with everything else - but question that. No war that Australia has been involved in where naval vessels have been engaged has lasted for too short a time to build a ship. Furthermore, most of the wars that have involved naval forces have lasted long enough for a ship to be built from scratch - the three large exceptions being the Falklands, Yom Kippur and Six Day War. Noting of course, that of those three wars, only one combatant actually had a proper ship building industry.

Now - everything else is 100%, and I'd rather be finishing ships than starting them from scratch!
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Oh please don't ..... it seems a good idea (and well priced) but I am now waiting for the deluge of suggestions about buying them and then equipping them with every conceivable weapons system and a helipad.
You know what will happen don't you? The RAN will evaluate them decide they are good value and recommend the purchase, the the government will delay the decision, miss out and then announce a local build at Austal for three of them at two billion each on a ten year lease.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
You know what will happen don't you? The RAN will evaluate them decide they are good value and recommend the purchase, the the government will delay the decision, miss out and then announce a local build at Austal for three of them at two billion each on a ten year lease.
Bite your tongue.

I agree with everything else - but question that. No war that Australia has been involved in where naval vessels have been engaged has lasted for too short a time to build a ship. Furthermore, most of the wars that have involved naval forces have lasted long enough for a ship to be built from scratch - the three large exceptions being the Falklands, Yom Kippur and Six Day War. Noting of course, that of those three wars, only one combatant actually had a proper ship building industry.

Now - everything else is 100%, and I'd rather be finishing ships than starting them from scratch!
I am assuming that when you speak of involving naval forces, you area actually referring to conflicts where there was direct engagement between opposing naval forces, since naval forces have been involved in a number of conflicts like GW I & II.

Me being me, and not to be argumentative (or at least, not just for the sake of being argumentative) but I would also tend to agree with StingrayOz about the viability of warship construction during wartime. This has to do with the long lead times for some of the more complex and precision pieces of kit which seem to usually be sensors or electronics. By devoting greater resources it might be possible to accelerate the construction of new and/or replacement ships/hulls during a conflict, but if those ships or hulls are still stuck awaiting delivery of the radar arrays, computers, computer cabinets and other CMS components, the vessels cannot be delivered 'finished' and ready to commission or deploy. I am somewhat hazy in my recollection, but I seem to recall the time between ordering and delivery of the Hobart-class SPY-1D radar arrays and Aegis CMS computers taking something like three years between order placement and delivery in Australia.

From that, it would seem that unless a modern high intensity conflict was very prolonged lasting years, which IMO would be unlikely since I doubt most nations would be able to sustain a high intensity conflict for very long, the weaponry being too expensive for most nations to be willing maintain large peacetime warstocks and the weaponry able to inflict significant damage quickly, the only vessels which might get commissioned during a conflict would be those already on order at an active yard and even more likely already at least partially constructed. I do not see how a modern warship build programme would be able to deliver wartime production rates like were observed in WWII where some US shipyards were able to deliver commissioned Fletcher-class destroyers roughly nine months after the vessels were first laid down.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
The speed the Chinese are building warships during peacetime is scary enough. What they would be capable of if war were to break out is almost unimaginable. Chinese warship construction is currently outpacing the US by a considerable margin.

China’s naval shipbuilding: delivering on its ambition in a big way

While we bungle along with our own shipbuilding programs the Chinese just keep building ships 7 days a week, 3 shifts a day with no public holidays and no unions to deal with.

High-speed production: Chinese navy built 83 ships in just eight years
 

King Wally

Active Member
Me being me, and not to be argumentative (or at least, not just for the sake of being argumentative) but I would also tend to agree with StingrayOz about the viability of warship construction during wartime. This has to do with the long lead times for some of the more complex and precision pieces of kit which seem to usually be sensors or electronics. By devoting greater resources it might be possible to accelerate the construction of new and/or replacement ships/hulls during a conflict, but if those ships or hulls are still stuck awaiting delivery of the radar arrays, computers, computer cabinets and other CMS components, the vessels cannot be delivered 'finished' and ready to commission or deploy. I am somewhat hazy in my recollection, but I seem to recall the time between ordering and delivery of the Hobart-class SPY-1D radar arrays and Aegis CMS computers taking something like three years between order placement and delivery in Australia.

From that, it would seem that unless a modern high intensity conflict was very prolonged lasting years, which IMO would be unlikely since I doubt most nations would be able to sustain a high intensity conflict for very long, the weaponry being too expensive for most nations to be willing maintain large peacetime warstocks and the weaponry able to inflict significant damage quickly, the only vessels which might get commissioned during a conflict would be those already on order at an active yard and even more likely already at least partially constructed. I do not see how a modern warship build programme would be able to deliver wartime production rates like were observed in WWII where some US shipyards were able to deliver commissioned Fletcher-class destroyers roughly nine months after the vessels were first laid down.
I'd tend to agree here. I think for Australia the limits would probably be that we could up-arm existing ships mid-conflict (imagine the LHD's receiving more extensive Air Defence upgrades or OPV's receiving a rush of corvette style add on's at the last minute). Obviously a Ship nearly finished could be rushed though or a civilian tanker converted for replenishment in a rush but thinking we could new build naval vessels mid war is probably a unrealistic stretch.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Modern ships and submarines, fighters, tanks etc take longer to build than there WW2 counterparts. While smaller ships can tend to be ramped up, large major combatants were painfully slow even with a full war economy going. Fletcher class was a 2,000 t ww2 destroyer with a whole bunch of 5"s. Battleships for example still too 4-6 years to build and even with the pressure of full on high intensity war, that wasn't really increased. The ones that were rushed tended to have significant flaws either in design or construction. There is a reason why US still builds so many supercarriers, you can't just rush ships like that into production.

Australia's strength isn't in manufacturing capacity, which is really a function of economic power and size. We tend to build solid units that meet our unique requirements. But in comparison to the major powers. US or Chinese ship production is other dimensional. We don't compete in that space, no one does.

IMO with the 3 production lines, Australia is in a good position. Its more about sovereignty, independent policy, sustainment and local economic benefit. In a world where the major powers are frustrating to deal with, having our own production line, ships coming and out of service is important. When we talk to Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore, we have capability. It doesn't matter what everyone else is doing. We aren't completely dependent on US congress line items and priorities, we aren't dependent on UK policy working in our favor for every day operation. We are independent enough to do our own thing if we need to, and lead it.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
The speed the Chinese are building warships during peacetime is scary enough. What they would be capable of if war were to break out is almost unimaginable. Chinese warship construction is currently outpacing the US by a considerable margin.

China’s naval shipbuilding: delivering on its ambition in a big way

While we bungle along with our own shipbuilding programs the Chinese just keep building ships 7 days a week, 3 shifts a day with no public holidays and no unions to deal with.

High-speed production: Chinese navy built 83 ships in just eight years
What we don’t know is how good or bad their Weapons and systems are. All we know is what is in the public domain and neither China nor the US is going to publicly admit on how good or bad they are and China doesn’t get the chances to test their systems against peer Allies the way the Navies of the Western Alliance do. China does come out and say their stuff is great but can that be treated as anything more than Propaganda?
China has not fought a major Naval Battle In centuries so how well developed is their Naval Strategies and Tactics, again an area they don’t get to test themselves against a Peer.
How could a publication like the Print have any real idea of the quality of the Ships China is building?
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
What we don’t know is how good or bad their Weapons and systems are. All we know is what is in the public domain and neither China nor the US is going to publicly admit on how good or bad they are and China doesn’t get the chances to test their systems against peer Allies the way the Navies of the Western Alliance do. China does come out and say their stuff is great but can that be treated as anything more than Propaganda?
China has not fought a major Naval Battle In centuries so how well developed is their Naval Strategies and Tactics, again an area they don’t get to test themselves against a Peer.
How could a publication like the Print have any real idea of the quality of the Ships China is building?
We may not know how good Chinese technology really is ... but quantity has a quality all of it's own.
 
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