Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Stampede]

It might get interesting if Turkey offered to sell it to Russsia , certainly it could be a replacement for the failed Mistral purchase

Unless there is an economic reason to sell the TCG Anadolu ,Turkey will keep their new LHD and operate it in much of the same fashion as the RAN
As such the Juan Carlos Primero Class is a very capable asset for the Turkish Navy, even without the F35B.
Should Australia put it's hand up to buy it at a good price.....for sure!!!!!
But it's not going to happen

"Buckley chance!"


Regards S

 

[StingrayOZ]

They won't sell it. Even with no F-35, it still makes turkey a major regional power, able to push troops, tanks ashore, and more importantly operate helicopters from a secure point off the coast. Turkey talks about being a global power, what they really mean, is a regional power.

Turkey isn't going to scare China, Russia or the US (or Europe) with anything they have. What they are is a major power in the middle east. There are the Saudi's who are bullying everyone, there is Egypt which is a complex mess but still a strong regional power particularly when allied to another power in the region (Saudis?). Turkey is shopping for support, in a move kind of similar to Duterte, and leveraging for what they want.

It kind of works for Duterte, because he really has nothing to lose, they don't have any advanced defence tech, they really do need help from outside powers. They have ISIS, the have China breathing down their neck, the US relationship is super complicated from its colonial past. Australia has turned out to be key in supporting Duterte. But Japan and others are also playing their parts.

For Erdogan, its messier. Turkey has lots more to loose. Turkey isn't making any friends.

No way will Turkey give the LHD up willingly. However, the next step if the relationship degenerates is to start shutting them out of NATO, which may include loosing support for all US equipment, defence related sanctions etc. Probably more worryingly, US supporting those opposed to Erdogan. If this was sitting in a Spanish yard getting, built, well maybe, but its not and they won't let it go.

They will just announce they will fly something Russian off it in the future. It will never happen, its all about positive images for the future. No way will Australia be buying it, unless Erdogan is toppled and there is a major budget crisis. Which also isn't impossible. Then would we want to buy it, as its likely to be finished with minimal western support.

 

[SteveR]

Turkey talks about being a global power, what they really mean, is a regional power.

Remember that for Erdogan there is the appeal to the past glory of the Ottoman Caliphate - that goes down well with his devout supporters. It was only a few hundred years ago that the Ottoman fleet ruled much of the Mediterranean. As well there is continued rivalry with Greece over Aegean and it's islands as well the big gas fields off Cyprus contested with Israel.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Also I should mention there isn't exactly a spec'd up acquisition project for the LHD. Nearly every time I can remember something being offered to Australia, without an acquisition project, even if it was nearly free, its been rejected. Even on fairly small projects. Jumping into the Turkey situation is problematic anyway, probably best we keep out of it at this stage. I also see Israel has already put in to accept delivery of Turkish F-35's, so picking through Turkeys stuff is likely to have HUGE baggage with it.

The real news about the Turkey situation is Australian companies picking up work originally allocated to Turkey. Given how small our slice was. Maybe pick up some of Canada's too? Certainly Japan would be keen on some of that pie.

I see Talisman Sabre was getting some international press as the largest "Allied" amphibious assault since WW2.
Extremely likely India and South Korea will send elements next year after observing this year. Japan is also likely to increase its engagement with Australia/US operations in and around Australia. I wonder if they will turn rimpac into a more focused exercise and move all the amphibious stuff into Talisman sabre.

I think this will highlight the importance of Amphibious capability going forward. The amphibious capability is a key driver in building relationships etc.

 

[Redlands18]

Also I should mention there isn't exactly a spec'd up acquisition project for the LHD. Nearly every time I can remember something being offered to Australia, without an acquisition project, even if it was nearly free, its been rejected. Even on fairly small projects. Jumping into the Turkey situation is problematic anyway, probably best we keep out of it at this stage. I also see Israel has already put in to accept delivery of Turkish F-35's, so picking through Turkeys stuff is likely to have HUGE baggage with it.

The real news about the Turkey situation is Australian companies picking up work originally allocated to Turkey. Given how small our slice was. Maybe pick up some of Canada's too? Certainly Japan would be keen on some of that pie.

I see Talisman Sabre was getting some international press as the largest "Allied" amphibious assault since WW2.
Extremely likely India and South Korea will send elements next year after observing this year. Japan is also likely to increase its engagement with Australia/US operations in and around Australia. I wonder if they will turn rimpac into a more focused exercise and move all the amphibious stuff into Talisman sabre.

I think this will highlight the importance of Amphibious capability going forward. The amphibious capability is a key driver in building relationships etc.

While externally the Turkish Ship May look similar to the Canberra’s let’s not forget that the Canberra’s Island is unique to Australia from both the Spanish and Turkish Ships especially internally and a fair bit of modifications would have to take place even if Australia was interested which I would be very doubtful about.

 

[vonnoobie]

When all said and done too many different scenario's that have to play out for Australia to end up with it. Turkey has to reject it for one reason or another, We have to actually make sure that it would suit our needs and has been built to a decent standard which means going over every inch of the ship with a fine tooth comb and costing up what it would take to retrofit for our use then we have to make sure we actually have the crew and budget to support the operation of the ship along with the many minor details in between. Would be a 1 in a million shot but if it is able to be done then the only way I see it being done is with the early retirement of the Choules.

That all being said if budget and man power could be found I would rather they go towards one or two logistics ships with a much larger cargo and RORO capacity to greater support any operations of ours as they would be of greater benefit then another LHD that quite simply for the foreseeable future we lack the manpower and air assets to actually make use of it. When we can fit pretty much our entire helicopter aviation element onto our fleet (excluding training and attrition birds) and still have room left over then we dont need the extra deck space for more.

 

[StingrayOZ]

ASPI continues with the 3rd peice on the Attack class.
Future-proofing the Attack class (part 3): regional superiority | The Strategist

Push for lithium batteries continues. I think this one kind of misses however.

With so many projects, I think we can rule out impossible acquisition of a turkish LHD. The US is still disposing of sealift ships which would be much cheaper. (like the transfer paperwork would cost more than the ship) and would have crewing requirements that are doable and wouldn't put anyone out of sorts or give up capability to do it.

 

[vonnoobie]

I think that is what people miss the most. In the past the bargain deals we have acquired over the last decade or so hasn't been because of the price but rather timing. Certain ships where in either disrepair or delayed and we needed a stop gap having the crews to spare at the time from the older ships being laid up, So we jumped at them. Now however those older ships are gone and the crews reassigned. We can scrounge up a crew for the less technical type of ships/craft but for an advanced ship of any type with all the added extra's just cant be done. Maybe and I stress maybe it could be done if jointly with the RNZN but I dont see that happening. Best we can hope for is >> "IF" << it is sold it is purchased by a nation we get along with or at the very least isn't in our region so not our problem so to speak.

Lets actually get all of our other planned projects fully up and running before we try and become bigger then the Royal Navy yeah?

Lets not be like my dad when he first got on Ebay.. Ooo BBQ's.. cheap.. Lets bid on a few... 7 new BBQ's by the end of the day.. Goes to by a car at the auctions.. Gets 10 cars towed home.....

 

[ngatimozart]

@vonnoobie no pudding for you. Only Mods use red. Off go you to the naughty corner and Fosters shall you drink.

 

[vonnoobie]

@vonnoobie no pudding for you. Only Mods use red. Off go you to the naughty corner and Fosters shall you drink.

Fosters.. Oh come on now your going too far.. That just inhumane

 

[ngatimozart]

Fosters.. Oh come on now your going too far.. That just inhumane

I know. Aren't I evil and I didn't even mention the cricket

 

[vonnoobie]

I know. Aren't I evil and I didn't even mention the cricket

-Grumbles like an old fart- I'm bloody well sending you a slab of Fosters for Christmas!! Yuuck. Why did Australia never seriously take into consideration the danger of developing WMD's.. Now we are stuck with that stuff.

 

[StingrayOZ]

It can be done. But limitations
.

M1a1 landing

• StingrayOZ
• Jul 28, 2019

M1a1 landing

 

[Tasman]

It can be done. But limitations
.

M1a1 landing

• StingrayOZ
• Jul 28, 2019

M1a1 landing

Further to my comments on this in the Australian Army thread it is good to see that the ADF is at least trialing and setting limits. Even if deployment of MBTs from the LHDs using an LCM-1E is only done on a limited basis in peacetime it will give both Navy and Army the information, re sea states and weights, that they will need if they ever have to do it in a real life scenario. It will also provide evidence to back up any submission to government re the need for improved landing craft and the specifications for such craft.

Tas

 

[StingrayOZ]

Yeh I agree.

Until you do it, it can be hard to argue you need to do it better. So I take this will be important first steps to doing this better. While its possible, it may be better for a number of reasons to have much bigger landing craft, to land tanks. It also means the LCM-1e does pretty much everything we would need it to do, at some level.

Moving only one at a time, in perfect conditions, may not be reasonable and takes away from the mobility of quickly deploying other resources. But that is really a different issue. If we are deploying tanks, may we need more tanks? etc etc.

Can we deploy them from Choules on the mex floaties?

I can't help some sort of intrim purchase of a General Frank S. Besson-class logistics support vessel - Wikipedia would be a medium term solution for this. Being able to land up to 15 tanks (or tank like things, bridges, recovery, allied bradleys, heavy machinery, fuel trucks etc). But also being able to do other amphibious type things. Also moving the M1A1 around various pacific island type infrastructure is also problematic, it might be worth while to have something else to load and unload them separately from the LHD's.

GSA Auctions, General Services Administration, Government Site for Auctions

Currently sitting $1m.. Which is probably less than what it costs to do any LCM-1e changes or even tender for any other solution (they would be far cheaper than even 1 additional LCM-1e). They wouldn't have to be forever ships, and even if we then pass them on to some other nation (PNG, NZ, Philippines etc) they would likely be welcomed as aid or similar. Then perhaps some improved locally made ship might be acquired for a better long term fit.

 

[alexsa]

Yeh I agree.

Until you do it, it can be hard to argue you need to do it better. So I take this will be important first steps to doing this better. While its possible, it may be better for a number of reasons to have much bigger landing craft, to land tanks. It also means the LCM-1e does pretty much everything we would need it to do, at some level.

Moving only one at a time, in perfect conditions, may not be reasonable and takes away from the mobility of quickly deploying other resources. But that is really a different issue. If we are deploying tanks, may we need more tanks? etc etc.

Can we deploy them from Choules on the mex floaties?

I can't help some sort of intrim purchase of a General Frank S. Besson-class logistics support vessel - Wikipedia would be a medium term solution for this. Being able to land up to 15 tanks (or tank like things, bridges, recovery, allied bradleys, heavy machinery, fuel trucks etc). But also being able to do other amphibious type things. Also moving the M1A1 around various pacific island type infrastructure is also problematic, it might be worth while to have something else to load and unload them separately from the LHD's.

GSA Auctions, General Services Administration, Government Site for Auctions

Currently sitting $1m.. Which is probably less than what it costs to do any LCM-1e changes or even tender for any other solution (they would be far cheaper than even 1 additional LCM-1e). They wouldn't have to be forever ships, and even if we then pass them on to some other nation (PNG, NZ, Philippines etc) they would likely be welcomed as aid or similar. Then perhaps some improved locally made ship might be acquired for a better long term fit.

Oh please don't ..... it seems a good idea (and well priced) but I am now waiting for the deluge of suggestions about buying them and then equipping them with every conceivable weapons system and a helipad.

 

[Flexson]

It can be done. But limitations
.

M1a1 landing

• StingrayOZ
• Jul 28, 2019

M1a1 landing

This is the first upgraded LLC doing this trial. Not the exact same configuration as we recieved them from Navantia originally.

And yes we trialled the M1A1 on Choule's Mexeflotes years ago. I guess this trial will determine who handles them better Mexeflote or upgraded LLC. I suspect Mexeflote.

 

[ngatimozart]

Oh please don't ..... it seems a good idea (and well priced) but I am now waiting for the deluge of suggestions about buying them and then equipping them with every conceivable weapons system and a helipad.

Don't forget the flux capacitor as well.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Oh please don't ..... it seems a good idea (and well priced) but I am now waiting for the deluge of suggestions about buying them and then equipping them with every conceivable weapons system and a helipad.

Oh, yeh, I imagine we could cover them in, seal up the front, make them real amphibious ships then have complicated cranes to move the landing craft off the deck, do a whole lot of 3ci stuff, make them the new Kanimblas, but why stop there, some torpedos, a 5" and 72mm and things would be quite armed. We could make them submersible too.. So many bad memories.

But I do feel we have a bit of capability hole where the LCH used to be.

The price is attractive, but we have been burnt with "cheap" ships before. Somethings aren't worth it even if they are given away free. I could see why Navy would be hesitant to put their hand up for that. Philippines would seem to be an ideal place for them to go as they already have two ships of the same type and are looking at similar. But I think they want to build local now. Still ram it onto a reef and it would be better than what they have.

This is the first upgraded LLC doing this trial. Not the exact same configuration as we recieved them from Navantia originally.

And yes we trialled the M1A1 on Choule's Mexeflotes years ago. I guess this trial will determine who handles them better Mexeflote or upgraded LLC. I suspect Mexeflote.

I wonder what the upgrades were.

I guess it gives an upper maximum what is possible on the LLC, given the Army has new toys coming inbound there is some interest in what we can and can't do, some aren't much lighter than a M1A1. If the army goes for upgraded tanks then there would be limitations as well. I'm not sure where we would need M1A1's deployed by LC in our region beyond peacetime exercises, but the Land400 stuff certainly could/will be. I guess if it can move a M1A1, it then kills any detracting argument about limited mobility, not suitable for Army etc.

At least with Choules/LLC you have some any time capability if you need it (in the right sea conditions obviously).

 

[FormerDirtDart]

...
I can't help some sort of intrim purchase of a General Frank S. Besson-class logistics support vessel - Wikipedia would be a medium term solution for this. Being able to land up to 15 tanks (or tank like things, bridges, recovery, allied bradleys, heavy machinery, fuel trucks etc). But also being able to do other amphibious type things. Also moving the M1A1 around various pacific island type infrastructure is also problematic, it might be worth while to have something else to load and unload them separately from the LHD's.

GSA Auctions, General Services Administration, Government Site for Auctions

Currently sitting $1m.. Which is probably less than what it costs to do any LCM-1e changes or even tender for any other solution (they would be far cheaper than even 1 additional LCM-1e). They wouldn't have to be forever ships, and even if we then pass them on to some other nation (PNG, NZ, Philippines etc) they would likely be welcomed as aid or similar. Then perhaps some improved locally made ship might be acquired for a better long term fit.

Afraid I need to be that guy.
That auction has been terminated. States that pretty clearly on page you linked.
Also, if you look under "Bidding Details" the auction was terminated the day after it was initiated
Put up a post about it back on page 1337

The article has been updated
You Can Buy One Of The Army's Most Capable Ships As The Service Guts Its Naval Fleets (Updated)
The listing for the LSV SSGT Robert T. Kuroda on the government auction site has been removed from the Boats and Marine Equipment category
But, the listing linked at the beginning of the article is still visible, but it does say the auction period has closed. And no bids are visible