Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[vonnoobie]

Correct me if I have this wrong, but I had been under the impression that some of the Pacific Forum recipients have not been using the patrol boats they received as much or as effectively as intended. From what I recall this was at least in part due to having problems properly maintaining the boats' systems which were too complicated for some of the island nations to support domestically.

If the above is correct, then I would expect a remotely controlled weapons station would also most likely be beyond the abilities of several of the nations to support.

Nope you are correct. I can understand people wanting to up arm or have the allowance to up arm the OPV's but when we are talking about uparming basic patrol boats intended for nations lacking the resources to acquire and maintain such assets them selves then we are smoking the fun stuff that we shouldnt be. These 19 boats (21 actually now with East Timor acquiring 2) are for basic fisheries and SAR, The majority of the nations barely have any military or let alone police force to speak of.. Pushing on a larger gun onto the boats would merely add to there difficulties in maintaining them.

That aside some on here I get the appearance thinking that we can make use of these boats.. we cant. They are being 'gifted' to soveriegn nations who can choose to use them how they see fit, That does not mean they are required to do our bidding if we ask it, They are also spread out across a vast area of the world so the less then 2 dozen over that area would be all but useless to us.

Leave these boats with the .50 HMG, it is a good enough weapon for there requirements, And lets stop worrying about upgrading boats for 3rd world nations into combatants that they cant afford.

 

[ASSAIL]

The replacement Pacific Class patrol boats will be fitted for 50 cal HMG. There is space and weight for an autocannon but is is not up to 40mm. With the original PCPB most had 50 Cals with only only PNG option for a 20mm mount.

A 25mm typhoon would also put a fishing boat down pretty quickly. A 50 Cal will disable one in very short order. Noting most fishing vessels are considerably slower than the OPV this is really not an issue.

The known tactic of ramming related to the FCPB (Townsville in particular) when trying to stop a boat that had escaped. The master of the fishing boat, assuming the FCPB would not fire directly on him, bumped the Townsville a few times. After a very protracted stand off Townsville was allowed to conduct a controlled firing on the vessel moving up from 7.62 to 50 Cal..... the vessel stopped.

This was in the days before RHIBs where we had to convince the bloody fishing vessels to stop before we launch the extreamly slow rubber duck.

We were much more hung ho in the Attacks we would board by "graunch" transfer. ie lay on a number of the old rattan fenders, drive up and lay
alongside the underway fishing vessel as the boarding party jumped onto the graunchee.
I don't think this would be possible without those rugged rattan fenders.

 

[ASSAIL]

Correct me if I have this wrong, but I had been under the impression that some of the Pacific Forum recipients have not been using the patrol boats they received as much or as effectively as intended. From what I recall this was at least in part due to having problems properly maintaining the boats' systems which were too complicated for some of the island nations to support domestically.

If the above is correct, then I would expect a remotely controlled weapons station would also most likely be beyond the abilities of several of the nations to support.

The RAN has a liaison team in each of the Pacific nation which provides technical and operational assistance.

 

[swerve]

Those were the same sentiments expressed at the beginning of the First and Second World Wars and on the introduction of ground troops into Vietnam.
Those all ended well didn't they.

Beginning of WW2? Not by the UK & France. Exactly the opposite, in fact. Both saw it as a long haul. The UK was already preparing for that, & the French spent the first eight months of the war doing the same. If anything, there was too much focus on that & insufficient willingness to act quickly.

The UK set up training programmes for aircrew, etc., intended to provide enough for years of constant warfare. See the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan. They had programmes to increase aircraft production, munitions - the works - & maintain them at high levels. There was a programme to expand & build new hospitals, to cope with casualties. Everything you can imagine for a long war was envisaged before the war, & where not already begun, initiated as soon as possible after the beginning of the war.

The USA's navel shipbuilding programme, begun before Pearl Harbor, shows that it certainly wasn't expecting that if it got into a war it would only last 6 months.

 

[John Fedup]

My spell checker didn't differentiate be navel and naval either.

 

[alexsa]

Correct me if I have this wrong, but I had been under the impression that some of the Pacific Forum recipients have not been using the patrol boats they received as much or as effectively as intended. From what I recall this was at least in part due to having problems properly maintaining the boats' systems which were too complicated for some of the island nations to support domestically.

If the above is correct, then I would expect a remotely controlled weapons station would also most likely be beyond the abilities of several of the nations to support.

The original class of boats were very basic with systems that could be supported locally. They were also pretty solid and could take being run aground .... as has happened. There has been in country support but some nations did not get the use out of them they could have for a variety of reasons.

Australia provided a refit programme to keep them operational and they have been through a number of cycles. In all they were a good option.

However, I agree the most countries do not have the capability fo operate complex systems. The fitting of any system beyond a 50 cal is an issue for the operating country and is not part of the project.

 

[hauritz]

The original idea was that Australia build 20 Offshore "Combatant" Vessels.

These were going to be vessels that could move between different roles simply by changing out mission modules. Even though the exact mission parameters were never revealed I always imagined that these ships would be similar in concept to the LCS.

Logically though, the most common mission these vessels would be expected to undertake would be patrol work. So rather than go with more expensive multi-mission vessels it makes sense just to build a batch of OPVs that would specifically only be used for patrolling.

It wouldn't surprise me though if the MCMVs and survey ships were replaced with proper OCVs.

 

[alexsa]

We were much more hung ho in the Attacks we would board by "graunch" transfer. ie lay on a number of the old rattan fenders, drive up and lay
alongside the underway fishing vessel as the boarding party jumped onto the graunchee.
I don't think this would be possible without those rugged rattan fenders.

Launceston did a graunch transfer on a fishing boat that ran down the rubber duck that was trying to board. The same boarding party that was plucked from the water when over the side to board and the duck was left behind. The fishing boat crew were very cooperative.


The FCPB could do it but were not as bomb proof as the Attacks.


RHIBs were purchased after that event.

 

[vonnoobie]

Looks like there are calls to expand our patrol boat program from the Pacific (Oceanic) island's to the Indian ocean as well.

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/maritime-antisub/1647-calls-grow-for-indian-ocean-patrol-boats-program

I imagine with most nations in the Indian ocean being better off then those from the Pacific islands they would be able to afford to field and maintain the boats them selves without or funding so could be matter of just financing the build which would benefit us from job's, taxes, work continuity and most importantly influence gained across the Indian ocean.

Seems to be a no brainer to me.

 

[alexsa]

Looks like there are calls to expand our patrol boat program from the Pacific (Oceanic) island's to the Indian ocean as well.

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/m...ls-grow-for-indian-ocean-patrol-boats-program

I imagine with most nations in the Indian ocean being better off then those from the Pacific islands they would be able to afford to field and maintain the boats them selves without or funding so could be matter of just financing the build which would benefit us from job's, taxes, work continuity and most importantly influence gained across the Indian ocean.

Seems to be a no brainer to me.

This is not a NO BRAINER. These calls are from West Australian based bodies not from any Indian Ocean states themselves. This programme includes in country support and requires intergovernmental agreements to be in place. Which means we cannot simply force these on other states. Added to which there needs to be a mutual benefit to Australia.

No lobbying from WA (self) interest groups will over come these factors meaning this would need some time to set up. Certainly we have provided second hand patrol vessel to Sri Lanka but these were provide gratis without the in country support and the agreement.

As an aside many Indian Ocean states (the ones that are likely to be interested in this proposal) are quite poor so the base assumption to your proposal is not correct.

 

[StingrayOZ]

This is not a NO BRAINER. These calls are from West Australian based bodies not from any Indian Ocean states themselves. This programme includes in country support and requires intergovernmental agreements to be in place. Which means we cannot simply force these on other states. Added to which there needs to be a mutual benefit to Australia.

Good god, does Austal know no bounds.

 

[Redlands18]

Looks like there are calls to expand our patrol boat program from the Pacific (Oceanic) island's to the Indian ocean as well.

https://www.defenceconnect.com.au/maritime-antisub/1647-calls-grow-for-indian-ocean-patrol-boats-program

I imagine with most nations in the Indian ocean being better off then those from the Pacific islands they would be able to afford to field and maintain the boats them selves without or funding so could be matter of just financing the build which would benefit us from job's, taxes, work continuity and most importantly influence gained across the Indian ocean.

Seems to be a no brainer to me.

There is a total of 6 Indian Ocean Island States. 4 off the Coast of Africa 2 off India and several territories belonging to Australia, UK, France and India so who would we actually be building these Boats for?. The only country in the Eastern Indian Ocean is Australia.
Geographically and Politicly there is simply no comparison. We build these Boats to help maintain Security and Political stability in an area very important to Australia.

 

[Volkodav]

There is a total of 6 Indian Ocean Island States. 4 off the Coast of Africa 2 off India and several territories belonging to Australia, UK, France and India so who would we actually be building these Boats for?. The only country in the Eastern Indian Ocean is Australia.
Geographically and Politicly there is simply no comparison. We build these Boats to help maintain Security and Political stability in an area very important to Australia.

Yes but you aren't seriously expecting common-sense or strategic consideration from the WA Mafia? So long as the tax payers foot the bill and Austal gets the work the rest is unworthy of consideration

 

[hairyman]

I am pleased that we are including Timor Leste into the Pacific Patrol Boat program, but I cant see what other nation we can include.

 

[CJR]

I am pleased that we are including Timor Leste into the Pacific Patrol Boat program, but I cant see what other nation we can include.

New Zealand? Canada?
:lol2

In terms of who out in the Indian could actually use a Pacific Patrol Boat type capability?

Mauritius, Seychelles and Sri Lanka seems fairly well kitted out as is.

Maldives could use some modernization but has ships as is.

Comoros Islands could use some new patrol craft.

Yeah, an Indian Ocean patrol boat programme is possibly another four hulls, and those are outside Australia's region of interest. I suspect a Pacific Landing Craft/Emergency Relief Craft (small container ship with additional accommodation, crane, small onboard hospital, gensets and landing craft?) would be a more profitable option...

 

[rockitten]

New Zealand? Canada?
:lol2

Many Aussie may not know it, many police vessels in Hong Kong are a modified version of the "pacific class".

Of coz, now even German refuse to sell MP-5 to that city, patrol boat will be a even bigger no no.

Philippine may become a potential customer as well "if we have the package"

 

[ngatimozart]

This thread is starting to head into la la land. So lets bring some reality back.

 

[Joe Black]

Inside the ANZAC Frigate mast structure

Interesting video from the RAN page on Facebook,

https://www.facebook.com/HMASParram...sFYwYwYxCwnRLJraRbpM9K3aet6gRBKzWCLiclzjQcS2M

One can see what the inside of the mast structure looks like. It looks rather huge. Oh the CEAFAR radar panels at 0:22 look huge.

 

[alexsa]

Many Aussie may not know it, many police vessels in Hong Kong are a modified version of the "pacific class".

Of coz, now even German refuse to sell MP-5 to that city, patrol boat will be a even bigger no no.

Philippine may become a potential customer as well "if we have the package"

Yes, the original Pacific Class.... and the Seahore Mercator was a derivation of the deign as are the Orca class in Canada, There is an Aluminium derivation in the PHillines but these wer not built under the programme and many were not built in Australia,

 

[StingrayOZ]

In the latest APDR I see Kym is calling for parallel production of Sea5000 and to accelerate the Sea1000 program and/or new build collins.

https://venturaapdr.partica.online/apdr/apdr-dec-2017-jan-2018/flipbook/1/