Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
While the Phalanx loader cassette does only have sufficient rounds for reasonably short engagements, ships fitted with the weapon generally have the capacity to reload a considerable number of times. More detail not forthcoming.

Sea RAM’s whole concept is for it to be easily reloaded at sea. Can’t remember whether it takes three or four personnel, but it’s not much more than that; and it requires a bit of kit but not a lot. There are videos on YouTube showing it being done.
Me being me, I would really much rather the RAN drop the Bushmaster II 30 mm gun and adopt a navalised version of the Oerlikon KCE 30 mm which is the gun used in the Skyranger 30. Yes, the mounting will likely be more than a Bushmaster II + Typhoon combo, but then the RAN would be operating a weapon designed to deal with a range of close aerial threats. The Bushmaster II, with a max ROF of ~200 rds/min and AFAIK not designed with a targeting system intended to engage maneuvering aerial targets would likely be hard pressed to hit small jinking UAV's never mind score hits on inbound missiles.

Somehow though I suspect the Australia will stick with the Bushmaster family even for applications where there are much better options available.
The Bushmaster M242 25mm gun is what RAN currently uses mounted in a Rafael Typhoon remote weapon station, it’s the RWS networked with the combat system that does the targetting…I am not sure anyone has ever suggested the Typhoon is lacking compared to simil

The 30mm Bushmaster II gun that RAN has selected is to be mounted in the Rafael Mk.30C Remote Weapon Station, which is an updated version of the Typhoon RWS, which again does the targetting, provides stabilisation etc.

The main difference between the 2 apart from 20 years of technological development and greater range and lethality of the 30mm round compared to the 25mm round, is that the 30mm affords the ability to employ proximity fused rounds and programmable ammunition (like AHEAD) natures both of which are vastly superior in the anti-air role compared to the typical HEI rounds employed by the 25mm guns.

The Skyranger is not a marinised system so you can imagine the problems there putting it on a naval vessel…
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The Bushmaster M242 25mm gun is what RAN currently uses mounted in a Rafael Typhoon remote weapon station, it’s the RWS networked with the combat system that does the targetting…I am not sure anyone has ever suggested the Typhoon is lacking compared to simil

The 30mm Bushmaster II gun that RAN has selected is to be mounted in the Rafael Mk.30C Remote Weapon Station, which is an updated version of the Typhoon RWS, which again does the targetting, provides stabilisation etc.

The main difference between the 2 apart from 20 years of technological development and greater range and lethality of the 30mm round compared to the 25mm round, is that the 30mm affords the ability to employ proximity fused rounds and programmable ammunition (like AHEAD) natures both of which are vastly superior in the anti-air role compared to the typical HEI rounds employed by the 25mm guns.

The Skyranger is not a marinised system so you can imagine the problems there putting it on a naval vessel…
True Skyranger is not, though it might be a good gun or gun/missile-based VSHORAD option for Army. However, Rheinmetall has been working on a similar use of the same gun, albeit navalized mounting, known as Sea Snake. I believe the weapon system has entered service with the Brazilian Navy fitted to their new Tamandare-class frigates.

The issue I have with the Bushmaster/Typhoon combo aboard RAN MFU is the same one I have had for a number of years, namely that whilst such a combination can be effective vs. smallcraft, the same cannot be honestly said about many potential aerial targets.

Now I am not particularly tied to any one system, but I would much rather the RAN start adopting a dual or multi-purpose small calibe rapid fire gun system which can provide some capabilities covering both anti-air and anti-surface.
 

JBRobbo

Member
Now that MBDA's Mistral-3 MANPADS/VSRAD missile is set to be manufactured in Australia, it opens a whole new can of worms. Although stated recently by Navalnews.com that according to 'RAN sources' the Australian Mogami's would retain the SeaRAM, after this development I would wager they won't be fitted with a CIWS at all. Afterall, they publicly announced 3x Phalanx mounts for each of the Canberra class over 7 years ago and that has still yet to eventuate. Although RAM Blk2 is clearly superior to Mistral-3 in every regard, it isn't planned to be manufactured here, is significantly more expensive per shot and can't be used by the Army.


 

JBRobbo

Member
Now that MBDA's Mistral-3 MANPADS/VSRAD missile is set to be manufactured in Australia, it opens a whole new can of worms. Although stated recently by Navalnews.com that according to 'RAN sources' the Australian Mogami's would retain the SeaRAM, after this development I would wager they won't be fitted with a CIWS at all. Afterall, they publicly announced 3x Phalanx mounts for each of the Canberra class over 7 years ago and that has still yet to eventuate. Although RAM Blk2 is clearly superior to Mistral-3 in every regard, it isn't planned to be manufactured here, is significantly more expensive per shot and can't be used by the Army.


The RAN has a history with Mistral too, if i remember correctly 2x4-round 'TETRAL' launchers for Mistral-2 were reportedly the preferred option for an inner layer/secondary air defence capability for the ANZAC's back before the ASMD/AMCAP upgrades began.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
They would be an interesting possibility OPV, PB, and even the army's new amphibs.

Affordable and great for leakers through longer ranged systems.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
What happens if someone try’s to board these when they are 2-3 hundred clicks from other RAN vessels?
Something in what you, say but I think unmanned may not necessarily mean unattended.
Probably a manned floating thing in company with said concept

Like the modularity.
A modern mexeflote of sorts.

Cheers S
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Although RAM Blk2 is clearly superior to Mistral-3 in every regard, it isn't planned to be manufactured here, is significantly more expensive per shot and can't be used by the Army.


Nor do they use ESSM, SM-2, SM-6 or SM-3. Mistral is not integrated with the CMS or autonomous in action; they might end embarking it as an additional system in combatants or in auxiliaries, but I’m pretty sure the Mogamis will come with Sea RAM.
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
They would be an interesting possibility OPV, PB, and even the army's new amphibs.

Affordable and great for leakers through longer ranged systems.
Always thought mounting a few light weight SAMs or ATGMs on a 25 / 30mm mount was a good use of a ships geography.
Mistral and Spike come to mind.

Yes some integration , but what a useful package for what does not take up too much space or weight.

Gun / missile combinations are not a new concept.

A prudent bit of Hail Mary insurance for when it counts

Cheers S
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Although RAM Blk2 is clearly superior to Mistral-3 in every regard, it isn't planned to be manufactured here, is significantly more expensive per shot and can't be used by the Army.
Superior in every respect - but weighs several times as much, as well as the cost & only having shipboard launchers.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Navantia Australia’s Smart LPD concept. Naval News.

Length - Approx 200m
Weight - Approx 20,000tonnes
Crew - Approx 170, accommodates up to 530
Speed - Max 23knts
VLS - 32 Mk41 cells
Electric propulsion
Duel role Amphibious operations platform/Mothership for unmanned systems.

 
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Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Navantia Australia’s Smart LPD concept. Naval News.

Length - Approx 200m
Weight - Approx 20,000tonnes
Crew - Approx 170, accommodates up to 530
Speed - Max 23knts
VLS - 32 Mk41 cells
Electric propulsion
Duel role Amphibious operations platform/Mothership for unmanned systems.

very similar to the Spanish version offered to uk for the MRSS.
front end a bit different…
 

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Reptilia

Well-Known Member
A very interesting concept, and looks like a very capable ship.

Not sure if I’d trust Navantia with turning the idea into reality though.
Agree, wouldn’t trust any Spanish or Aus company to design/build it.
If we are going to replace Choules, we will likely add on to the uk order. Maybe Japan/Korea is an option also, they have potential replacements upcoming.

More numbers of small platforms could be another option, Fassmer + Damen have a few eg.




100+120 fassmer designs can also move the bridge to one side it seems for stovl operation.
 

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SammyC

Well-Known Member
Navantia's smart LPD is a nice looking ship, but I think they are trying to do too much within a single hull. It looks like a bit of a jack of all trades, likely to be more expensive than the base function needs to be (moving cargo), is very crew consuming (the video said 170 people), and goes against the distributed model that the defence strategy is pushing.

I think a proper escort frigate supporting a number of LCHs is a more effective combination.

If we need more bulk transport capability, expand the planned LCH program. These are cheap simple hulls that only need a crew of about 20 per vessel and should be readily repeatable off a hot production line (which we will eventually get).

If we need more escort capability (which I think we will) then build more GPFs. They are more capable at area defence in all disciplines.

If we have extra money for logistics, then I think at sea replenishment and liquids transport (how are we going to get fuel to a litoral force) is the better value.

Choules is not going to be replaced as a 1 for 1 hull. It will be replaced in function by the LCHs.
 
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Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Navantia's smart LPD is a nice looking ship, but I think they are trying to do too much. It looks like a bit of a jack of all trades, likely to be more expensive than the base function needs to be (moving cargo), is very crew consuming (the video said 170 people), and goes against the distributed model that the defence strategy is pushing.

I think a proper escort frigate supporting a number of LCHs is a more effective combination. If we need more bulk transport capability, expand the planned LCH program. These are cheap simple hulls that only need a crew of about 20 per vessel and should be readily repeatable off a hot production line (which we will eventually get).

If we need more escort capability (which I think we will) then build more GPFs. They are more capable at area defence in all disciplines.

If we have extra money for logistics, then I think at sea replenishment and liquids transport (how are we going to get fuel to a litoral force) is the better value.

Choules is not going to be replaced as a 1 for 1 hull. It will be replaced in function by the LCHs.

The 120 Fassmer design has RAS capability + well dock + container storage + platform for unmanned systems all with a crew of 60.
6 of something similar over 2 LPDs or 2 JSS(at FBE) instead spread over the 3 littoral lift locations.


Order of 8 LCH is odd, you would think the split would be even.
18LCM+9LCH*
(6LCM + 3LCH) x Darwin, Townsville and Brisbane.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Agree, wouldn’t trust any Spanish or Aus company to design/build it.
If we are going to replace Choules, we will likely add on to the uk order. Maybe Japan/Korea is an option also, they have potential replacements upcoming.

More numbers of small platforms could be another option, Fassmer + Damen have a few eg.




100+120 fassmer designs can also move the bridge to one side it seems for stovl operation.
Are you an expert shipbuilder or are you just going off what you've been told by the expert shipbuilders in the Murdoch media and parliament?

People like to knock Australian shipbuilding, well let's look at the reality.

Melbourne and Newcastle were probably the best built FFGs out of the entire class, definitely better built than the RANs US built ships.

The ANZACs were so well built they have lasted almost 30 years without major life extension work. They have also received massive capability upgrades far beyond what they were designed or intended to receive.

The Hobart's have been very trouble free, the issues they had in build relating to the identification and rectification of design issues.

There have been issues with the LHDs, relating to the hulls and system built in Spain, not the superstructure and systems built in Australia.

The AORs, totally built in Spain, have been a problem since day one.

The Arafuras suffered delays due to the designer not undertaking an appropriate level of certification work. The government took their eye off the ball because they assumed overseas designers know what they are doing so didn't provide the required level of oversight.

Then there's the Collins Class. Derided for their entire career as useless as failures but they are being life extended to forty years plus, and are still regarded as among the most capable conventional submarines ever built.

It's pretty obvious the problem isn't Australian shipbuilding. Imagine where we would be had we supported continuous building in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s? Hell imagine where we would be if we achieved and maintained it from the 40s?

The issue is cost, the reason it costs more here is our boom and bust cycle, combined with switching locations ever couple of decades. Every second generation we shut up shop and start fresh in another state, while other nations build ships in the same locations for decades and in some cases centuries.

Despite that we still build good ships, there is just a price premium due to government inconsistency.

Don't believe me, just look at the US, UK, and Europe where they let their industries contract since the cold war.

Stop knocking Australian shipbuilding.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Are you an expert shipbuilder or are you just going off what you've been told by the expert shipbuilders in the Murdoch media and parliament?

People like to knock Australian shipbuilding, well let's look at the reality.

Melbourne and Newcastle were probably the best built FFGs out of the entire class, definitely better built than the RANs US built ships.

The ANZACs were so well built they have lasted almost 30 years without major life extension work. They have also received massive capability upgrades far beyond what they were designed or intended to receive.

The Hobart's have been very trouble free, the issues they had in build relating to the identification and rectification of design issues.

There have been issues with the LHDs, relating to the hulls and system built in Spain, not the superstructure and systems built in Australia.

The AORs, totally built in Spain, have been a problem since day one.

The Arafuras suffered delays due to the designer not undertaking an appropriate level of certification work. The government took their eye off the ball because they assumed overseas designers know what they are doing so didn't provide the required level of oversight.

Then there's the Collins Class. Derided for their entire career as useless as failures but they are being life extended to forty years plus, and are still regarded as among the most capable conventional submarines ever built.

It's pretty obvious the problem isn't Australian shipbuilding. Imagine where we would be had we supported continuous building in the 80s, 90s, and 2000s? Hell imagine where we would be if we achieved and maintained it from the 40s?

The issue is cost, the reason it costs more here is our boom and bust cycle, combined with switching locations ever couple of decades. Every second generation we shut up shop and start fresh in another state, while other nations build ships in the same locations for decades and in some cases centuries.

Despite that we still build good ships, there is just a price premium due to government inconsistency.

Don't believe me, just look at the US, UK, and Europe where they let their industries contract since the cold war.

Stop knocking Australian shipbuilding.
I am for Australian shipbuilding but the record is terrible post 2000. Every single class of ship has had issues on the Australian end.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Navantia's smart LPD is a nice looking ship, but I think they are trying to do too much within a single hull. It looks like a bit of a jack of all trades, likely to be more expensive than the base function needs to be (moving cargo), is very crew consuming (the video said 170 people), and goes against the distributed model that the defence strategy is pushing.

I think a proper escort frigate supporting a number of LCHs is a more effective combination.

If we need more bulk transport capability, expand the planned LCH program. These are cheap simple hulls that only need a crew of about 20 per vessel and should be readily repeatable off a hot production line (which we will eventually get).

If we need more escort capability (which I think we will) then build more GPFs. They are more capable at area defence in all disciplines.

If we have extra money for logistics, then I think at sea replenishment and liquids transport (how are we going to get fuel to a litoral force) is the better value.

Choules is not going to be replaced as a 1 for 1 hull. It will be replaced in function by the LCHs.
The concept is an expansion on the Danish multi role ship, capable of logistic support of deployed ground forces, deploying ground forces, presence, HADR, and self escort.

If you look at WWII, while there were large numbers of single role amphibious ships and craft, there were also APDs. APDs were destroyers and destroyer escorts configured as high speed transports.


These ships carried a reinforced company sized force of Marine Raiders, Demolitions, Army Rangers etc. of about 200 fully equipped personnel and their support equipment, deploying them with organic landing craft. They also served as escorts for other amphibious vessels, provided fire support, ASW, mine clearing and AA cover for landings and raids.

These days such ships would logically also be drone motherships.

To me they would be a very sensible and versatile acquisition that would enhance the Army's new amphibious capabilities.

A further observation, considering our change in doctrine, maybe replace the LHDs with ESBs


This would free up money and crew for proper light carriers.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I am for Australian shipbuilding but the record is terrible post 2000. Every single class of ship has had issues on the Australian end.
Did you read what I wrote?

That is an inaccurate and unfair assumption based on biased reporting and politicisation.

Navantias issues were in design, build and support. The three navantia designs in service with the RAN showed an inverse relationship with the amount of input navantia had.

Basically the greater the Australian input, the more issues there were with cost and schedule as problems were identified and fixed during build. The greater Navantias input, the fewer cost and schedule issues but as the cost of far greater quality, operational and availability issues.

It is widely understood that an Australian built Burke or Type 45 would have had far fewer build delays, and that a bespoke design with extensive Australian involvement in the design, would also gave performed better.

When you assume you are building to print, but then you discover the print is wrong, you can either bodge it (LHDs and AORs) or fix it (DDGs). The AWD alliance chose to fix it.

If you are going to knock Australian shipbuilding knock Austal, but they are backed by the WA mafia so we know that's not going to happen. When I was at Austal the majority of their workforce was Filipino on 457 visas flown in to build the Capes then fly home. QA was done by their production supervisors, and their configuration control was "that looks near enough".

Doing it properly has upfront costs, failing to do it properly has much higher follow-on costs. All we seem to care about is upfront costs and we ignore the thirty years through life cost.
 
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