Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I see the catch-22 there but where does that leave us? Is it a threat that we prepare for or do we do nothing in the hope we dont make them up-arm the fleet? I mean, wouldnt doing something that makes them react be better than just letting them do whatever they want unopposed?
I think this area of possible contingency needs to be explored.
Yes, no golden answer but for a maritime response that basically has two options.
Gunned up major warship or under gunned Cape Class patrol boat. This appears a very limited range of options to the complexity both military and political to the task presented.

I omitted the OOP as it’s fire power is the same as the Capes and it’s without a respectable sized UAV.
Also we only have one in service.

So far China has played nice with us

What if they don’t!

Cheers S
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
RAN
2025 / 2035
7 / 0 Anzac class GPFs
3 / 3 Hobart class AWDs
0 / 2 Hunters ASWFs
0 / 3 Upgraded Mogami GPFs
1 / 6 Arafura class OPVs
10 / 10 Evolved Cape class PBs
2 / 2 Canberra class LHDs
1 / 1 Choules LPD
2 / 2 Supply class AORs

A gigantic capability leap of 3 vessels.
Tier 1 3 to 5
Tier 2 7 to 3
Tier 3 11 to 16

15-20 years before we see a significantly more powerful Navy, I think more can be done in the short term. Buy existing ships(F100 Spain?) or more numerous new ships off an existing production line(Japan/Korea?) before 2030.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
15-20 years before we see a significantly more powerful Navy, I think more can be done in the short term. Buy existing ships(F100 Spain?) or more numerous new ships off an existing production line(Japan/Korea?) before 2030.
Can more be done? Ans. Probably, though whether or not there is real value in some of the options is debatable.

I see no good reason for Australia to purchase any of the F-100 frigates from Spain, and a few reasons not to. The newest Spanish vessel was laid down almost 20 years ago, whilst the oldest, F-101 was commissioned into the Spanish Armada 23 years ago. These are not new vessels and not to RAN spec, with limited space/displacement for upgrades as well as less service life remaining.

As for purchase more/new vessels from active yards in either Japan, S. Korea or both... this could be done, but unless either/both countries were willing to allow Australia to 'jump' the build slot queue, deliveries to the RAN would likely happen some time after 2030 and that is if orders were placed now.

All of this is also ignoring the difficulties that Australia would likely face trying to integrate a number of new designs from different countries/yards at the same time, never mind being able to operate and maintain the various weapon and shipboard systems the different designs have.

The final issue as I see it has to due with personnel. The RAN only has so many people able to serve aboard ship. The current plans expect the RAN to expand over the next 20-25 years by several major warships, which should allow time for more personnel to be recruited whilst existing personnel build the skills of junior officers and enlisted so that they can take senior positions when there are more warships in the fleet.

If Australia were to suddenly have a large influx of vessels right now, pretty much the only option would be to decommission even more ANZAC-class frigates to try and provide enough warm bodies to serve aboard these proposed vessels.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
The F105 is only 12-13 years old, it’s closer to Aus spec than the first 4. Could it be upgraded to a level good enough for RAN? I’m not sure but it was based in Aus for quite awhile for training. 4-5 months…
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The F105 is only 12-13 years old, it’s closer to Aus spec than the first 4. Could it be upgraded to a level good enough for RAN? I’m not sure but it was based in Aus for quite awhile for training. 4-5 months…
The F105 was commissioned in October 2012, but laid down in June 2007... so like I mentioned, not exactly a new vessel.

Also, the RAN's Hobart-class DDG's which themselves are newer, are about to undergo modernization upgrades which would suggest that the F105 would likewise really to have something similar done in order to stay relevant. This still is ignoring the differences in ship fitout between RAN vessels and the Spanish Armada, including even things like signage most likely needing changing.

I do understand with potential threats and conflicts on the horizon, the interest in the RAN expanding. Unfortunately though, there just are not very many options available to do so rapidly, never mind effectively.

Even if Australia were to get the F105, it would most likely just be used to replace a currently serving ANZAC-class frigate rather than be used to increase the overall fleet size.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
The F105 was commissioned in October 2012, but laid down in June 2007... so like I mentioned, not exactly a new vessel.

Also, the RAN's Hobart-class DDG's which themselves are newer, are about to undergo modernization upgrades which would suggest that the F105 would likewise really to have something similar done in order to stay relevant. This still is ignoring the differences in ship fitout between RAN vessels and the Spanish Armada, including even things like signage most likely needing changing.

I do understand with potential threats and conflicts on the horizon, the interest in the RAN expanding. Unfortunately though, there just are not very many options available to do so rapidly, never mind effectively.

Even if Australia were to get the F105, it would most likely just be used to replace a currently serving ANZAC-class frigate rather than be used to increase the overall fleet size.
Fair enough, just an Idea.

Figured
-Hobarts are going through major upgrades, it would make some sense to upgrade a 4th right after.
-Spain are not interested in increasing the defence budget beyond 2%, the rest of Europe is.
-Navantia are building 5 F110s with potentially 2 more planned. All ahead of schedule. First launched in 3 days, 2027/28 service.
-Navantia will build another Cantabria AOR(possibly 2), the same as the Supply class from next year. We have 2 back in service now, a possible transfer with some added $$$.
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Fair enough, just an Idea.

Figured
-Hobarts are going through major upgrades, it would make some sense to upgrade a 4th right after.
-Spain are not interested in increasing the defence budget beyond 2%, the rest of Europe is.
-Navantia are building 5 F110s with potentially 2 more planned. All ahead of schedule. First launched in 3 days, 2027/28 service.
-Navantia will build another Cantabria AOR(possibly 2), the same as the Supply class from next year. We have 2 back in service now, a possible transfer with some added $$$.
One likely issue with the F105 is that it would not only likely need an upgrade, it would not be able to have the same upgrade as the Hobart-class since they have different fitouts and the Hobart-class is at least several hundred tons greater displacement at full load. Having to develop an entirely new upgrade for a single vessel would likely be both expensive and risky.

I am rather doubtful that the RAN would want more Spanish-built Supply-class AOR's, and quite possibly anything else built in Spain either.

Having said that, the only way that Spanish F110's might be available in any sort of useful time would be if Spain sold the ones they have on order and already under construction to Australia. New orders placed at this point would likely have delivery after the Mogami-class order with Japan. At this point I would also remind people that the F110 design itself did not even seem to place with regards to SEA 3000, so does not really look like something Australia wanted.
 

iambuzzard

Well-Known Member
I see the catch-22 there but where does that leave us? Is it a threat that we prepare for or do we do nothing in the hope we dont make them up-arm the fleet? I mean, wouldnt doing something that makes them react be better than just letting them do whatever they want unopposed?
Like I mentioned, there do not seem to be any good solutions.

Australia might be able to increase the combat capabilities of the various patrol assets and then use them to threaten non-compliant PRC vessels but there are several potential downsides to this though.

Increasing the combat capabilities of the ECCPB, the ACPB and/or the Arafura-class OPV could all be done, but that would take time, cost money, and still not deliver any sort of real, warfighting capability. Even worse, the PRC would likely have an easier time arming (or re-arming, for those vessels which are ex-PLAN warships) their vessels so that any force match Australia managed to achieve with minor warship is either negated, or left with the PRC having the capability overmatch. Worse still than that is the spectre of what could happen should an actual confrontation occur which led to hostile fires getting exchanged. I tend to suspect 37 mm fire from a CCG patrol frigate would do rather bad things to an aluminum-hulled ACPB or ECCPB, even if either of those could be fitted within something like Spike NLOS.

Something which needs to be remembered in any discussion about increasing the armament of a patrol vessel like Australia has, is that these vessels were not really designed as combat vessels. This means that many of the damage control features aboard a combat vessel are going to be absent, and likely difficult if not impossible to build back into a vessel during major yard work. Something like installing a magazine of a size suitable to support a larger calibre gun, large gun mounting, or even boxed missile launchers could prove problematic. There would also most likely need to be some upgrades to a vessel's sensors and CMS. Again, these are things which can be done but take time and are not cheap.

Lastly, with Australia not having limitless resources, one needs to contemplate what is a better approach. Up-arm patrol vessels beyond what they were designed or intended for, or direct the resources which would be needed to achieve such upgrades towards building up the capabilities and numbers of proper RAN warships?

Me being me, I would rather the resources get directed towards proper RAN combatants.
Acquire more than 11 Evolved Mogamis and keep the line going at an accelerated pace like the Japanese are doing. If they are launching 3 a year surely we can do 2!
If the balloon goes up we will need them, and fast!
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
One likely issue with the F105 is that it would not only likely need an upgrade, it would not be able to have the same upgrade as the Hobart-class since they have different fitouts and the Hobart-class is at least several hundred tons greater displacement at full load. Having to develop an entirely new upgrade for a single vessel would likely be both expensive and risky.

I am rather doubtful that the RAN would want more Spanish-built Supply-class AOR's, and quite possibly anything else built in Spain either.

Having said that, the only way that Spanish F110's might be available in any sort of useful time would be if Spain sold the ones they have on order and already under construction to Australia. New orders placed at this point would likely have delivery after the Mogami-class order with Japan. At this point I would also remind people that the F110 design itself did not even seem to place with regards to SEA 3000, so does not really look like something Australia wanted.
1x 48 cell F105 with current 85% commonality with the Hobart is better than a new F110 with 16 cells imo. (in the short term.)
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Acquire more than 11 Evolved Mogamis and keep the line going at an accelerated pace like the Japanese are doing. If they are launching 3 a year surely we can do 2!
If the balloon goes up we will need them, and fast!
It all comes down to the willingness of the GOTD to spend the necessary funds. Anything is possible with enough investment.

Even a significant increase in Hunter Class construction or speeding up SSN-AUKUS.
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
1x 48 cell F105 with current 85% commonality with the Hobart is better than a new F110 with 16 cells imo. (in the short term.)
I would suggest better to make the necessary investment to speed up Mogami and Hunter class construction.

That investment could include targeting shipbuilding workers from the UK/Germany/US/Japan/Korea for recruitment.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
I would suggest better to make the necessary investment to speed up Mogami and Hunter class construction.

That investment could include targeting shipbuilding workers from the UK/Germany/US/Japan/Korea for recruitment.
Hunter drumbeat to 1 year or 18 months still = post 2034 for follow on ships.
Mogami drumbeat to 1 year still = post 2034(the shipyard needs to be upgraded which will take 3-5 years).

Question is what can be done within the next 10 years…
F105, Japanese OPV, ‘lethal‘ Cape upgrades etc is something we could see within 3-4 years.
A fourth destroyer, up to 8 additional opvs and 21 Capes with a 25mm and 4 NSM is a nice little capability boost by 2030.
+Speartooth, Ghost Shark and Bluebottle production.
 
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Richo99

Active Member
Question is what can be done within the next 10 years…
A few ideas:
- a minimal upgrade to keep the best 3 Anzacs going for 5 or so more years....
- plus a handful of additional P8s,
- plus the UUVs you mentioned,
- plus actually putting weapons on anything thats grey... put some form of SAM on the LHDs to reduce the need for escorts, maybe from 2 down to 1,and maybe even some SSMs...ie distributed lethality
-
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Question is what can be done within the next 10 years…
F105, Japanese OPV, ‘lethal‘ Cape upgrades etc is something we could see within 3-4 years.
A fourth destroyer, up to 8 additional opvs and 21 Capes with a 25mm and 4 NSM is a nice little capability boost by 2030.
+Speartooth, Ghost Shark and Bluebottle production.
From where I sit, I do not see any significant increases as something being realistic within the next ~ten years, beyond what Australia has already set into motion.

There are a few naval yards actively building vessels to fill current customer orders. In order to output from these yards, either Australia would need to wait until the yards have build slots available, or else the customer's with vessels actively being built would need to agree to either let Australia purchase the vessel(s) under construction, or else 'jump' the build slot queue. Since we are seeing a degree of global rearmament ahead of anticipated int'l conflicts, getting other nations to agree to postpone/delay their respective naval build plans could be problematic, expensive, and more likely IMO, both. Even if Australia could get one or more nations actively having major warships built to agree to letting Australia purchase 'their' warships, the RAN would end up with warships designed, built and kitted out to the specifications for other navies. This would then almost certainly trigger additional time being required to get RAN personnel and support systems skilled and equipped to operate and maintain the systems which would not be standard RAN systems. Indeed we are already seeing questions about this getting raised about the fitout of the Japan-built Mogami-class frigates for the RAN, since we do not know if they will be armed with Japanese AShM or VL rockets/missiles, or with US/RAN used systems like NSM, Standard, or ESSM. If the vessels are kitted out with weapons and munitions not currently in service with the RAN, then Australia would need to purchase warstocks of those munitions as well as setup logistics/distribution support to receive, safely store and then deliver the munitions to the appropriate vessels as needed. Depending on where vessels would be homeported, as well as the storage requirements for different ordnance, Australia might need to construct additional/new munitions storage facilities beyond what it current has or is planning.

Also the more variety that exists in munitions inventory for the same types of munitions, the more expensive and harder it will likely be to make sure the right vessels get the right ordnance when and where needed.

Another option to try and get additional vessels into RAN service within a decade would be to try and purchase active or 2nd hand vessels from other navies. However, this option would have some of the very same issues as trying to get ships from yards actively building for existing customers, namely the navy/gov't which currently has a vessel the RAN might want to purchase has to agree to the sale. There is also an additional potential issue with buying 2nd hand warships in that having been in service, Australia would be getting a vessel that might not be in the best shape and would also not have the same service life available and/or might require significant upgrades in the very near future to stay relevant/effective.

There might be some limited scope available to accelerate what Australia is already doing and get some of the Hunter-class frigates commissioned a little earlier than current timelines suggest but that would likely only be one or two additional vessels at most. It is unfortunate, but if Australia really wanted to have more vessels in RAN service by ~2030, then more work needed to be done during the 2015-2020 time period if not earlier.
 
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