Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Toxicity and bullying once again. Seems to be a common thread around here.
You are not a Moderator so don't try to be one. Your continual reporting of posts for slights imagined or real has gone beyond a joke.

Because of your continual vexatious complaints you are placed on a seven day ban whilst the Moderators discuss your future on here.
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
The only proviso on that would be if the number of major vessels being built is substantially slashed and all we need is a single type of warship and even then I think they would likely try to spread that build across two yards.
This would be inconsistent with the DSR though - clearly states 2 tiers of surface combatants.

It must be very challenging for those serving in the RAN - there is so little clarity on the RAN's future there must be a lot of uncertainty.

The lack of clarity wrt to the future of the RAN (let alone Army) is quite remarkable given the amount of work that must have gone into it over the years.

Regards,

Massive
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
In this I think that NZ is in much the same boat as Aust in that most Euro frigates don't meet basic range/endurance needs.
It's not so much Euro frigates per se, because some of them do require long range. Any frigate, regardless of origin, that Aussie or NZ acquires has to have a long range and endurance precisely because of the vastness of our AOMI (Area Of Maritime Interest).
A bit late but how does ship-building Bulk carriers and LNG ships transfer to DDG? There is a reason why India and South Korea asked Italy for help with the CVs.

It is like saying that you would buy Italian tanks because FCA+PSA became the 4th biggest automotive carmaker. Would you buy an Ariete ;)

You have to look for not just quantity but also quality.

Korea/Japan/US have political weight. But if you are looking for Quality + Quantity in shipbuilding you have to go European with the French first or Germans and Italians. With UK and Spain being the middle ground (they got good military shipbuilding but not civilian)

And to support what i wrote consider that just the order from QATAR should almost cover all export orders from Korea military shipbuilding if I remember correctly and we are the smaller player of the 3.

Korea strongpoint is R&D they are second only to the US, they spend as almost all big EU player put together. If you want to do collaborate with Korea is on development of something new and not on know how if not in specific sectors (at risk of ending up with Pali pali mentality for who know Korean culture)
Maybe you should actually investigate South Korean shipbuilding capabilities before making uninformed statements. The South Koreans build more warships than the Italians do, and generally they are better armed. I don't see an Italian DDG sporting anywhere near the capabilities of the South Korean KDXIII. Nor do I see an Italian ship like the Dokdo LHD. There is also nothing wrong with the quality of South Korean shipbuilding either.

Yes the UK had quality issues with their Tide Class AOR, but they were built by the then DMSE company and at that stage the company had quite a few problems. The RNZN had its AOR built by HHI and we have not had any issues with the build quality. Part of the reason is that we had a project management team comprising of RNZN engineering officers and contract SMEs embedded within the HHI shipyard building HMNZS Aotearoa, rather than just one or two people working from the Embassy.

You are a valued poster on here who offers good insights that are appreciated by many. There is no need for this chauvinistic, seemingly superior attitude.
 

Oz-Watcher

New Member
After reading a recent article in Naval news in regards to the Naval Strike missile. I saw a comment that Australia was to have its own production line. Whilst I was aware that we were purchasing the missile to replace the harpoon, and I know we are pushing for greater self reliance. I hadn’t seen mention that the missile was actually going to be manufactured in Australia until now. Does anyone have any further information?

.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I've long been a fan of Italian warships. The concepts, if not the actual designs, which were tailored for the Mediterranean, over the years would have been a good fit for the RAN.

Their DDGs are exactly the sort of ship that would have suited Australia's needs, perhaps better than the DDGs and FFGs we procured. Their CGHs could have, in hindsight (the retirement of Melbourne without replacement in 1983), also been a good option for the RAN. I love Garibaldi.

FREMM is harder, they would have been a good fit as ASW or even GP FFGs, had a proper DDG been selected instead of the F-100, but with the Hobart's as they are, something larger and more capable was required to replace the ANZACs.

It's looking more and more that the Hunters themselves aren't big enough, going smaller just doesn't make sense.
 

Meriv90

Active Member
Maybe you should actually investigate South Korean shipbuilding capabilities before making uninformed statements. The South Koreans build more warships than the Italians do, and generally they are better armed. I don't see an Italian DDG sporting anywhere near the capabilities of the South Korean KDXIII. Nor do I see an Italian ship like the Dokdo LHD. There is also nothing wrong with the quality of South Korean shipbuilding either.

Yes the UK had quality issues with their Tide Class AOR, but they were built by the then DMSE company and at that stage the company had quite a few problems. The RNZN had its AOR built by HHI and we have not had any issues with the build quality. Part of the reason is that we had a project management team comprising of RNZN engineering officers and contract SMEs embedded within the HHI shipyard building HMNZS Aotearoa, rather than just one or two people working from the Embassy.

You are a valued poster on here who offers good insights that are appreciated by many. There is no need for this chauvinistic, seemingly superior attitude.
It isnt chauvinistic.

I was refering to the civilian industry since i was answering to a post that affirmed that the bulk and LNG carrier production from Korea translates to Military capacity to build ships of quality.

I Studied in Seoul and wrote my thesis on global comparison of shipbuilding capacity. I have no intention at all to diminish them or also Japan since I come from a diplomatic family that worked there and in my Bolivian house Nisei constantly came and went.

The South Koreans build more warships than the Italians do,
Korean fleet displace 232,285 tonnes vs Italian fleet displacing around 275,000

and generally they are better armed
Do you think we didn't have a porcupine phase during the cold war?

From USNI on Audace Class
Italy’s fifth and sixth postwar destroyers, the two of the Audace class, are under construction. These good- looking ships will carry the new OTO Malera rapid-fire 5”/54 in two single mounts forward, four 3”/63 guns amidships, and Standard missile aft, as well as a complete manned helicopter facility, including hangar. Their antisubmarine equipment includes an Edo-built sonar comparable to the SQS 23 directing the Mk 32 torpedo launchers and the ASW helicopter. From an over-all design standpoint, the new Audace class is one of the best, really a steam-powered version of the American DX, with Standard missiles. All of this is accomplished on 4,400 tons.
Financially strapped, the Italian Navy has contributed little in the way of destroyer numbers but her designs and, increasingly, her technology are contributing to the destroyer state of the art.

I don't see an Italian DDG sporting anywhere near the capabilities of the South Korean KDXIII.
You build ships in regards to your needs, and we need a ship for the MED not to face the Chinese Fleet.

It isn't a a measuring contest. Why the FA-50 and Krab had such export but not Korean ships? It isn't a rhetoric question.

Our needs is operating under financial strain, when we see the amount of money Australia and Canada throw in their shipbuilding it astonish us.

A PPA is going to have an operation cost of 30% less than a FREMM and the FREMM is already 30% less than the previous class. (insider unconfirmed information)

FREMMs have only 16vls and the space for the rest of the 16vls is used for a gym for better living quarters (that helps with recruitment, a problem that you also suffer).

You can also see the low number of VLS also on the new DDX. Our first priority is getting hulls in the water because we have a negative public opinion. Normally we discover our SPG arrive in Ukraine only when they appear on frontline videos or we catch the transport train, if not all trasnfer of equipment is made in secret. Why the need to create an arms race in the MED if everyone is going to loose from it.

Nor do I see an Italian ship like the Dokdo LHD
I'm sorry but what are the Garibaldi and the Santi class for you? That we even exported twice to Algeria and Qatar? And existed way before the Dokdoo.


Remember they ask us for support.

I think that we can all stand behind the fact that the civilian industry in Europe producing middle equipment, super yachts and Cruisers brings more added technological value than the Korean-Japanese shipbuilding industry does. And that that added tech development in the civilian sector translates to military.

Didn't Kato just wrote some weeks ago about the German LNG ship?

Let me do another example of Civilian cross contamination:

Is it a coincidence of Uk development of SME nuclear reactors and their Submarine reactors vs the French refuelment system and the development of bigger nuclear style than UK? Or that German fielded a LNG ship?

I hope my post about Korean civil shipbuilding as indicator is better explained with this post.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Republic of Korea Navy - Wikipedia
Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force - Wikipedia
Seriously are you claiming Japan and South Korea do not know how to build warships? I think you need to do some research, Every Japanese Warship built in the last 50 odd years has been a Japanese design except for the Burke class derivatives. South Korea while somewhat behind Japan are now designing and building their own Destroyers and Frigates. Yes they have turned to Europe for help with CV designs but the two designs put up are a long way from a QE or a Trieste. Same as Submarines, they have started with Euro designs and working from there.

Quantity wise, Japan has built more warships since 1990 than any European nation, how many Euro nations are currently building 22 Frigates to one design? South Korea currently operates 12 Destroyers and15 Frigates and are building Frigates to replace Corvettes.
They've changed plans. Now they're "only" going to build 12 Mogami class frigates before changing to a new frigate design, though it may be a stretched Mogami.
 

Preceptor

Super Moderator
Staff member
You are not a Moderator so don't try to be one. Your continual reporting of posts for slights imagined or real has gone beyond a joke.

Because of your continual vexatious complaints you are placed on a seven day ban whilst the Moderators discuss your future on here.
Following discussion between the Mod team, the Ban has been made Permanent. This is a result of patterns of problematic posting behavior as well as repeated misuse or abuse of the Report Post function. The Report Post function is to be used to draw Moderator and Staff attention to posts that are problematic or contain content which violates the Forum Rules. It's not to be used to draw attention to posts that a member might not like the contents of but are within the rules, especially when the content is factually accurate.

DefenceTalk is an international defense forum which exists primarily to discuss military and naval matters, and there is an expectation that members (old and new, professional or amateur) will put some effort and research into their posts, with their content relevant to the thread topic.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
What might be beneficial to do, would be for a post containing a general overview of the processes that Australia typically uses to acquire new, additional or replacement defence kit. This might be a more general ADF post, but I could also see some value to having easy access to some of the RAN-specific issues given the relatively high price tag/low quantities involved in warship production.

Having something in place that readers can be referred to, might help cut down on some of the less grounded speculation which has happened.

Of course it cannot really help if a poster set on ignoring information and links others post because the content disagrees with or casts doubt on what they believe, but such posters rarely last long or contribute much.

Some discussion on US processes for FMS and meeting ITARS might also be beneficial, though such content might need to get regulatory approval from the various national bodies which oversee access to sleep aides.
 

devo99

Well-Known Member
Thank goodness I wasn't here for the brief CEAFAR vs SPY-1 discussion.

Comparing a 3rd generation array level beamforming PAR with a 4th generation subarray and element level beamforming PAR is to the same effect as comparing a 1980s G-Shock with a current series Apple Watch. Not only does the latter make use of newer materials, it's operating with technology and methods which weren't even conceptualised during the development of the former and are thus impossible to incorporate into it without creating an entirely new system.

SPY-1 is an old and in many ways limited system which even in its latest form has fallen behind the cutting edge and likely would've been getting replaced in USN service by the 2000s had the end of the Cold War not removed any urgency for an expensive upgrade program.
By contrast both operationally fielded forms of CEAFAR (S-band and L-band) are scaleable and therefore able to compete with any contemporary systems given the room and power to fit and run it. Being 4th generation also comes with extra goodies like being able to combine IFF, EW and S&T functions into the one array. Also unlike SPY-1, a significant part of CEAFAR is the software behind it, meaning it can be continually updated to keep up with times and thus have a much longer life than SPY-1 save for a major breakthrough in material science making the hardware obsolete.

For these reasons I will strongly object to any suggestions that a new warship be fitted with SPY-1.
 
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old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
OT.
A strong Wallabies team has always been in the best interests of both NZ and World Rugby. We don't like it when the Wallabies are playing like a primary school underage team.

There's much gnashing of teeth, tearing of hair, and rendering of cloth in Kiwiland today after last nights great preliminary final win by the Broncos against the Warriors. It's as funny as. I have extended family members and friends who are Warriors tragics, and they were not happy with me parading in my Broncos shirt last night before the game started. I have explained to them that I have been a Broncos supporter since 1988, long before the Auckland Warriors were a pipe dream. It's also against my religion to support any Auckland team. That's a South Island thing.
the truth about Australian rugby is that its really only played in Ag colleges and all boy private schools. hence the names like "Stirling Mortlock", "Nick Farr-Jones' , and "Fraser McWright". Union in Australia is very much like Black Adders George and the General Melchin.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
the truth about Australian rugby is that its really only played in Ag colleges and all boy private schools. hence the names like "Stirling Mortlock", "Nick Farr-Jones' , and "Fraser McWright". Union in Australia is very much like Black Adders George and the General Melchin.
And that type of attitude by Rugby Australia is very much a contributing factor too poor international performances by the Wallabies. This mornings game against the Welsh shows that something is seriously wrong with rugby in Australia.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
the truth about Australian rugby is that its really only played in Ag colleges and all boy private schools. hence the names like "Stirling Mortlock", "Nick Farr-Jones' , and "Fraser McWright". Union in Australia is very much like Black Adders George and the General Melchin.
When I played back in the 90s it was with a quite working class club. The hecklers from the "better bred" clubs were calling "oh, doesn't the housing commission have a lot to answer for", "rent assistant forwards, unemployment benefit backs".
 

76mmGuns

Active Member
the truth about Australian rugby is that its really only played in Ag colleges and all boy private schools. hence the names like "Stirling Mortlock", "Nick Farr-Jones' , and "Fraser McWright". Union in Australia is very much like Black Adders George and the General Melchin.
I hadn't known this. Made me think back hard to school..I think my primary school teacher tried to get us to play union for 1 year (i was in a public school) but the kids voted for soccer, and the 1 year we played rugby, it was league.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
And that type of attitude by Rugby Australia is very much a contributing factor too poor international performances by the Wallabies. This mornings game against the Welsh shows that something is seriously wrong with rugby in Australia.
We need a short sharp review into the size, composition, and nature of Australia's Rugby team. Perhaps what we need is a bigger team made up of smaller players. Leave it with me and I will get back to you sometime before the 2030s.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Collins-class submarine suffers on-board electrical fire - ABC News
I think I would rather talk Rugby than the frightening thought of a fire on board an ageing Submarine. Apparently it was extinguished quickly and HMAS Farncomb was able to continue its deployment.
We'll probably never know if this was a very minor incident blown out of proportion or something of significant concern.
Minor incident in the context of not life threatening to crew and sub.

Does again highlight our silent forces predicament of operating a aging platform going forward.

Cheers S
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I’ve been involved in, I think, five fires at sea, ranging from a minor fire in the insulation of an oven which the Leading Cook put out with no drama before the standing sea fire party arrived to a major fire in HMAS Sydney III. Each one was reported as though it was the end of the world. None were. Farncomb continued her patrol. Rex Patrick should never be mistaken for a serious commentator on Navy matters.
 
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JohnJT

Active Member
I watched this earlier this morning and there are only two nations in Australasia, so it makes me wonder if it's NZ, not Australia, that they are specifically referring to.
The Babcock rep specifically names NZ as interested in the T31 in this video (from DSEI 2021 at about 1:50):


Of course, there is the possibility that both NZ and Australia have shown interest...
 
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