Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting. The S-100 is quite popular. Can you point me to anything saying why it was cancelled?

Well, there are plenty of competitors.
It came as a surprise to me but the post from Naval News posted above by @OldTex throws up some suggestions. I do recall that for some time the ABC has been referring to the decision to acquire the S-100 as controversial, including the fact that it is used by Russia and China.

Their report on the cancellation reflects this:

Labor scraps controversial drone deal Peter Dutton oversaw in government - ABC News

I would make the observation, however, that the ABC views many ADF selections as controversial!

Hopefully the RAN will end up with something better...

Tas
 

OldTex

Well-Known Member
The options for a VTOL UAV would seem to be Schiebel S-100, their S-300 and Leonardo's AWHero plus a couple of other european designs. There is an outside chance that 3 much heavier platforms (MQ-8B Firescout, MQ-8C Firescout and SW-4 SOLO) could be considered, however the size and weight of these alternatives might preclude their use from the OPVs in particular.

Some media pundits have suggested that the RAN will look to use the Army TUAS (RQ-21 Integrator) to benefit from commonality across the services. But it would be like balancing and elephant on a bowling ball, it could be done but the question remains.....Why?
 
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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
The options for a VTOL UAV would seem to be Schiebel S-100, their S-300 and AWHero plus a couple of other european designs. There is an outside chance that 3 much heavier platforms (MQ-8B Firescout, MQ-8C Firescout and SW-4 SOLO) could be considered, however the size and weight of these alternatives might preclude their use from the OPVs in particular.

Some media pundits have suggested that the RAN will look to use the Army TUAS (RQ-21 Integrator) to benefit from commonality across the services. But it would be like balancing and elephant on a bowling ball, it could be done but the question remains.....Why?
Lack of a Hangar on the Arafura class may rule out the larger UAVs, the smaller ones come with a specially fitted out container, that can be easily carried on the flight deck.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
Every serious review is based on geography as well as perceived strategic threat.

The geography drives how many ships we need and the environmental conditions they need to operate in. The strategic threat dictates the defensive and offensive capability the ships require.

Australia needs a minimum number of ships to provide the required presence in our local waters, through our region and globally as required. They need a minimum level of endurance and seaworthiness to reach and operate where they are needed.

We have always had around 25 or 30 combatants. Ideally they would have been, depending era, battlecruisers, cruisers and sloops; heavy cruisers, light cruisers and sloops; DLGs, DDGs and DEs; CGs/DDGs, FFGs, light frigates/corvettes.

What we have had this century is FFGs, FFHs, and patrol boats.

Since the late 60s the lower end has been inadequate PBs, with no combat capability to mention, culminating in the basically useless Armidale and Cape class constabulary patrol boats. These craft are so pathetic they need to be supplemented by frigates during the monsoon because they are too fragile and unseaworthy to be operated during monsoonal weather conditions. That is their class rules, specifically prevent them from going to sea in certain conditions because they are too fragile by design.

These make up just over half of our combatant numbers and they are incapable of actually doing the job they were acquired to do throughout the year. As such, they need to be supplemented by major surface combatants.

This is why we ordered the arafuras. Ships that were large enough and seaworthy enough to do the limited constabulary job the PBs were never good enough for. But because they are bigger, more durable and more seaworthy there is pressure to turn them into pocket battleships.

Yep, we finally get a constabulary vessel that is large enough, durable enough and seaworthy enough to do the bare minimum, close to zero threat level job required, and it gets recast as a replacement for the ANZACs and Hunters.
Don’t disagree with you. patrol boats are patrol boats…big or large they are still patrol boats. I am very cynical at the moment from the DSR and then the Naval review I fear being manipulated politically, more for what I consider economic grounds, than defence. And regardless of who done what over the past 20 years I can’t see things improving when we hear lines like Navies around the world are moving to smaller ships. Of course the wallet is only ever so thick but I’m living in Victoria where the political language used to justify nutty decisions ( it wasn’t safe to go surfing or play golf for a while there!) is mainly circular platitudes …well I’m hearing that in defence now. I hope I am wrong but My guess is less Hunters, upgrades to Anzac’s and Hobarts and kick the can down the road on a much smaller Anzac replacement. Without jumping in the fantasy fleet we should just stick with the hunters as planned and get the ball rolling on a ( much more closer to MOTS ) Sth Korean or Japanese’s design that has the US systems. If the first few have to be built offshore because our yards are maxed out so be it.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
You are being condescending and elitist, what you are exhibiting is DARVO, one of the worst, and most narsacistic forms of bullying. I truely feel sorry for anyone who has to work with, let alone for you.

Fortunately I can choose to ignore you, your colleagues and subordinates can't. If you keep on the way you are going the mods will give you an official warning, if you percist after that they will likely ban you.

What you have said to me and about me is offensive, insulting, condescending, judgemental, immature and totally out of line as it has no bearing on reality, fact or what has passed on these pages. You may get away with it in your personal and professional life but such behaviour is not tolerated here.

I expect if you have not already been contacted my a mod you will be in short order. Your behaviour and attitude already has already been discussed, insulting other members will simply ensure it is escalated.
Just ignore them mate. The wolf don’t care what the sheep think.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
I believe the Arafuras have a long and useful life ahead of them, whether they are corvettised or not.

Unlike the Armidales and Capes, many of their systems are common to major fleet units, making them ideal school houses for new operators and maintainers. That is of course assuming they can find enough old and bold members to serve as school masters.

They will be infinitely better at the constabulary role and able to adapt to various other duties. It would be interesting, for instance, to see if they could be adapted to a littoral support role. Nemo 120mm mortar turret anyone ;)
On that point re the main gun selection. Is there a project for that in play?
 

Maranoa

Active Member
The reporting on Project SEA 129 Phase 5 is all incorrect. Contracts, ie final selection of platform for fleet wide service, was never made. The only SEA 129 contract overseen by former Defence Minister Dutton was for three additional S100 S2 Camcopters to enlarge inservice leased fleet to continue and expand the RAN's 822X Squadron trials. A final decision on fleetwide MTUAS was never made. The program was scuppered by Marles for his own reasons, perhaps to free up money or maybe to wedge Dutton on a dumb 'Chinese Drone' angle. This information was released in the Feb 2023 senate estimates by ADF representatives under questioning and reported in Defender way back and yet this false reporting of a fleetwide S100 S2 contract continues.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It came as a surprise to me but the post from Naval News posted above by @OldTex throws up some suggestions. I do recall that for some time the ABC has been referring to the decision to acquire the S-100 as controversial, including the fact that it is used by Russia and China.

Their report on the cancellation reflects this:

Labor scraps controversial drone deal Peter Dutton oversaw in government - ABC News

I would make the observation, however, that the ABC views many ADF selections as controversial!

Hopefully the RAN will end up with something better...

Tas
Yes I thought that there was a security issue with it precisely because of both the Russians and Chinese using it. I was trying to remember where I had seen that.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
What puzzles me about the cancellation of the S-100 is that the DSR went to great lengths criticising the rather drawn out selection processes Australia went through when choosing new defence equipment when there was often an obvious candidate.

It then goes and cancels what I would consider a fairly obvious candidate in favour of what is likely to be another drawn out selection process.

Hard to follow their thinking here.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Yes I thought that there was a security issue with it precisely because of both the Russians and Chinese using it. I was trying to remember where I had seen that.
The navy addressed that question ages ago. The copter itself would have been heavily modified for Australian service.


To me it would be like Australia knocking back the Wedgetail and Poseidon aircraft because China happens to operate 737s.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
The navy addressed that question ages ago. The copter itself would have been heavily modified for Australian service.


To me it would be like Australia knocking back the Wedgetail and Poseidon aircraft because China happens to operate 737s.
The S 100 is a popular unit sold to many customers.
Its tried and tested and works.
It's very familiar to the RAN and one would think it was the way forward.
It's the type of capably that has a big future both off the OPV's, but also all our major fleet units.
It's the type of capability we should have right now.
The OPVs are a mystery at this stage pending the Naval review , but the need for a S100 sized platform for the fleet is I believe very solid.
If the S 100 is not to be, then an alternative should be found ASAP.

The unmanned stuff across the services is a big part of the ADFs future.

This is a big cog missing from the defence wheel


Cheers S
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
I wonder whether the development of the Australian designed (BAE et al) STRIX platform may become a suitable replacement.
According to BAE, it is a containerised system (20 foot shipping container) and has potential to be used in the maritime role as well as land based.
More information here:
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I wonder whether the development of the Australian designed (BAE et al) STRIX platform may become a suitable replacement.
According to BAE, it is a containerised system (20 foot shipping container) and has potential to be used in the maritime role as well as land based.
More information here:
Riskier and means the project would need to be pushed back by several years. Having said that I have detected a bias towards domestically sourced equipment and then there is whole issue of sovereignty so who knows.

At this stage my own preference would be to stick with proven technology.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
Why would this
I wonder whether the development of the Australian designed (BAE et al) STRIX platform may become a suitable replacement.
According to BAE, it is a containerised system (20 foot shipping container) and has potential to be used in the maritime role as well as land based.
More information here:
Why would this program take another 5 years to develop? I get the need for testing and integration but if it’s a great idea thrown the funds at it and get it done. I’m too simple for this stuff.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Why would this

Why would this program take another 5 years to develop? I get the need for testing and integration but if it’s a great idea thrown the funds at it and get it done. I’m too simple for this stuff.
It all comes down to funding and the willingness of DOD and the government to commit.

What I saw at Avalon earlier in the year certainly looked like a great prospect but I guess it depends on the operational requirements set by navy and endorsed by government. If the navy only wants a limited, predominantly surveillance role, the STRIX might be viewed as overkill. On the other hand, if the DSR really leads government to demand greater lethality from its assets it may well be worth pursuing, perhaps as a follow on to an interim solution bought off the shelf.

A big question that needs an honest answer from government is do we really want a sovereign industry and, if so, what sacrifices in term of cost and delivery into operational service are we willing to make?

Tas
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I wonder whether the development of the Australian designed (BAE et al) STRIX platform may become a suitable replacement.
According to BAE, it is a containerised system (20 foot shipping container) and has potential to be used in the maritime role as well as land based.
More information here:
For myself the question is, do you want a UAV as a compliment to the ships helicopter or a replacement.

Helicopter hanger space is always tight.

I feel that S100 sized platforms work.
I was told there was room for both this unit and a helicopter on the ANZACS but believe the Hobart's may be a bit small.

Others may be able to confirm.

As for STRIKs, it looks promising but when looking at the mock up it was noticeably a much bigger unit than the S 100
A very different animal.

Cheers S
 
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Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
The main advantage of the Strix over the S100 is that, once airborne, it flys in aircraft mode which is more fuel efficient (thus more range) and allows higher speeds. Tactically, this opens up more options.

It’s been designed to carry two weapons so those hard points could be used for sensor pods, etc.

BAE Australia claim that it could be operational in 2026.

STRIX
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
The main advantage of the Strix over the S100 is that, once airborne, it flys in aircraft mode which is more fuel efficient (thus more range) and allows higher speeds. Tactically, this opens up more options.

It’s been designed to carry two weapons so those hard points could be used for sensor pods, etc.

BAE Australia claim that it could be operational in 2026.

STRIX
It has a slick video presentation and as a concept appears to have a lot of promise.
Let's watch this space.
Again a compliment or a substitute for a helicopter.

Cheers S
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Just for the sake of completeness and to hopefully put to bed further questions, I found the original and follow-up articles in the Australian, which is the outlet which first reported on the unsolicited offer from Navantia Australia for three additional AWD's. The first reporting on this was made 5 April, 2022.

A link can be found here to the results in a search for "Navantia" on the Australian site.

A link can be found here for an article dated 30 May 2022 in which the Chief of Navy VADM Noonan had testified at a Senate Estimates hearing on 1 April 2022

Below is a partial quote from the linked article in the Australian.
Having testified at a Senate Estimates hearing on April 1 that there was “no contemplation” of additional Hobart-class destroyers, VADM Noonan seemed taken by surprise by further questions on the matter during a Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee hearing just five days later.

“I became aware of media reporting last night of a proposal from Navantia suggesting that they had the capability to build three more additional warfare destroyers,” Noonan testified.

“I had not seen that advice prior to the media reporting last night, nor has navy taken any advice from Navantia regarding that advice.”

“I currently have in place a very robust surface combatant transition plan, which does not take into account any contemplation of additional air warfare destroyers so, at this point in time, it is something that has been speculated within the media regarding unsolicited advice or an offer that’s been provided by Navantia.”
It appears that original the Australian article reporting on the unsolicited offer is paywalled.

BTW for those not from or familiar with Australian media, the Australian, the Melbourne-based the Age, and the Sydney-based Sydney Morning Herald (SMH) are all major Australian daily newspapers. As such, to just ignore their reporting would be to demonstrate a disinterest in factual discussions.

Somewhat related to the above, but if someone is familiar with the Senate hearing transcripts reporting system and could find and post a link to the hearing where CN Noonan stated that there was no contemplation of additional Hobart-class destroyers, I would be interested in reading through those transcripts.
 
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