Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Meanwhile in the working Navy, a new visitor to our flagship to start training of a new capability :
"Leading Seaman Avation Support Luke Williams directs a US Army AH-64E Apache as it takes off from HMAS Canberra while the ship is alongside at Fleet Base East in Sydney." Image Source : ADF Image Library
View attachment 50093
Interesting pic

Shows the height of HMAS Canberra's flight deck which I think is around 20m off the water surface.
The size of the two ships aft is interesting.
I believe a Hobart and Anzac with the later noticeable smaller than the later.
Nothing like getting some height to see distance on the oceans surface..

Nice Image.


Cheers S
 
I feel that effectively where this debate has ended up is that the required fleet is something along the lines of:

8 SSN

8 Air Warfare Destroyers (likely larger than the Hobarts
8 Large ASW Frigates

8 GP frigates (~5000t)

12 OPV

8 Mine warfare

2 LHD
2 JSS

2 Oiler
I feel that effectively where this debate has ended up is that the required fleet is something along the lines of:

8 SSN

8 Air Warfare Destroyers (likely larger than the Hobarts
8 Large ASW Frigates

8 GP frigates (~5000t)

12 OPV

8 Mine warfare

2 LHD
2 JSS

2 Oiler

This leaves out:

LCH replacement
Any logistics support vessels (a la Point class)
Any discussion of aircraft carriers

Be interesting to see where the RAN ends up.

Regards,

Massive
I’d be increasing the AOR quantity also and sticking with the Supply class design for consolidation. These ships do what it is says on the can, and with a lot of sea in every direction they’re a pretty key enabler for our ships and those of our allies. One on either side of the country does nothing for redundancy, war losses, long transits or extended maintenance periods. The logistics tail is everything and without availability in this capability MFU’s would be bobbing on the water or diverted. Additionally this is a capability where we can add value to our allies.

edit; apologies, somehow posted twice.
 
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ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting pic

Shows the height of HMAS Canberra's flight deck which I think is around 20m off the water surface.
The size of the two ships aft is interesting.
I believe a Hobart and Anzac with the later noticeable smaller than the later.
Nothing like getting some height to see distance on the oceans surface..

Nice Image.


Cheers S
Yes, it’s quite surprising RAN haven’t tried to put a CEAFAR2 on top of the LHD’s and use it as a TF radar picket… :D
 

StoresBasher

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Interesting pic

Shows the height of HMAS Canberra's flight deck which I think is around 20m off the water surface.
The size of the two ships aft is interesting.
I believe a Hobart and Anzac with the later noticeable smaller than the later.
Nothing like getting some height to see distance on the oceans surface..

Nice Image.


Cheers S
Correct and to be precise HMAS Sydney and HMAS Arunta.
 

StoresBasher

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I’d be increasing the AOR quantity also and sticking with the Supply class design for consolidation. These ships do what it is says on the can, and with a lot of sea in every direction they’re a pretty key enabler for our ships and those of our allies. One on either side of the country does nothing for redundancy, war losses, long transits or extended maintenance periods. The logistics tail is everything and without availability in this capability MFU’s would be bobbing on the water or diverted. Additionally this is a capability where we can add value to our allies.

edit; apologies, somehow posted twice.
Without giving too much away, the current AOR reliability and serviceability are not good at all...
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Without giving too much away, the current AOR reliability and serviceability are not good at all...
Surprise surprise. The way we seem to go is once a contractor is selected, irrespective of how many or how serious the issues, the government of the day will continue giving them work until people forget who chose them in the first place.

Conversely, when a contractor steps up, does a good job, fixes problems caused by a poor contract, maybe even fixes legacy problems from a previous contractor, if there is bad press or even no press, the government will not hesitate to shaft them.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Just online after the day at work & scanning thru the news feeds here in the UK, THIS turned up (video link is also included)...

Comments on nuclear submarine choice 'irresponsible' ahead of AUKUS announcement -defence minister

ABC News (AU) - Comments...

Having read the comments & watched the video, I'd appreciate the thoughts of others on the comments.

SA
I have a pretty low opinion of the leader of the opposition.

He is blatantly trying to create a wedge in the electorate that he can grow and in his mind, ride into power. Fingers crossed wedge politics, while it will still exist, will decline in relevance.

We need discussion and negotiation not obstruction. Obstruction and determination to paint each other into corners is the root cause of most of our nonsensical political, economic and defence failings since Keating became PM.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Without giving too much away, the current AOR reliability and serviceability are not good at all...
I know nothing of this issue, but given the RAN had Spain's supply ship Cantabria for about a year, there should have been no surprises as to what we were getting.
Trust if there are issues they can promptly be sorted out.

As to reliability and availability the RAN of the future needs to be a Navy of three's.


Cheers S
 

Scott Elaurant

Well-Known Member
Just online after the day at work & scanning thru the news feeds here in the UK, THIS turned up (video link is also included)...

Comments on nuclear submarine choice 'irresponsible' ahead of AUKUS announcement -defence minister

ABC News (AU) - Comments...

Having read the comments & watched the video, I'd appreciate the thoughts of others on the comments.

SA
It would be far preferable if we returned to a bipartisan approach to major defence acquisitions but this seems unlikely to occur at present. I find it hard to know what Dutton hoped to achieve with this announcement. It looks like attention seeking behaviour.

If we are really getting Virginias then it pre-empts the formal announcement that will be made with Pres Biden and PM Sunak, embarrassing leaders of our closest allies.

If the RAN are getting SSNR or Astute Batch 2 submarines it implies they will be somehow inferior, which is regrettable in terms of their intended deterrent role. That impression would also be false, since regardless of which you rank first, I think most analysts would rate the Astute and Virginia as the two best submarines in the world. Getting either is a huge step forward for the RAN. This is in addition to all the other issues not considered like constructability, cost, crew training and operability.

The kindest thing I can say about Dutton’s remarks is that they are unhelpful.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Just online after the day at work & scanning thru the news feeds here in the UK, THIS turned up (video link is also included)...
Comments on nuclear submarine choice 'irresponsible' ahead of AUKUS announcement -defence minister
ABC News (AU) - Comments...
Having read the comments & watched the video, I'd appreciate the thoughts of others on the comments.
I can understand the liberals fears, but yeh, I think things have moved on so I am surprised this has resurfaced. It appears they are trying to push a higher capability option perception. That the US is a much more capable and much better platform.

Also in Australia I don't think there is a huge preference for American or UK submarines. What ever the Navy thinks it can operate. There is probably more fear about a US submarine being built overseas, but I don't think in fact that is true.

If its SSNR and has UK and US backing, then I think people can see that working with acceptable risk, particularly if the SSNR is a scaled Dreadnought class.

I think most people can see we have a closer and more peer based relationship with the UK and there are UK companies in Australia, and plenty of poms in Australia.

The US is more capable, but we aren't peers, there aren't millions of US citizens in Australia. There are few American companies, and none own or operate shipyards. The Americans have never seemed particularly interested in operating ship yards here. That isn't something they are interested in.

That said there is a real urgency to upsize defence in Australia. Bombers, destroyers with 96+ VLS, heck even SSGNs are popping up for discussion and even serious consideration. There are people whispering that we don't just need SSNs, but SSBNs, and not just any old SSBNs, the new American ones, because a regular old SSBN isn't enough capability. We don't need just fighters, we need fighters capable of orbital battles in space. Perhaps a space battleship..

Its not just about submarines. The Liberals will paint every defence acquisition under labor as being the "carebear" safety low capability version. They want to be seen as the ones big on defence.

Also governments, all type have been terrible about communicating what is going on. There are legitmate concerns about Astute, mostly because the UK can't build them or their reactors anymore and PWR2 has known issues. But of course, this may not what is being concidered at all when we say Astute, most people speculate its an Astute with an American reactor.

Australians can see the global shift happening. We can see a lot of chaos in the US, now and in the future. We can see what is happening in Ukraine, and it feels immediate, Australia has lots of migrants from after WWII from all over the continent and after the fall of the iron curtain. We can see the huge rise of China, probably more than any other western nation, Australia has a lot of Taiwan, Hong Kong, mainland China migrants and we do huge, huge trade with China. China has already tried to economic squish Australia. Watching a small middle power nation like Ukraine get pounded the crap out of it while everyone watches, hits hard here. Defence is a high priority in Australia. It isn't a second class priority anymore.

While Labor and Liberal broadly agree on concepts, I expect them to furiously fight and defence decisions. It will be an election issue.
 
Disappointing politics is being played with this but let’s all hope that once there is an announcement politics disappears and both sides get right behind this project. It will need that to succeed, not to mention all the new and revised programs.
Can someone explain why 8 subs are purported to
be on the cards when the rule of 3’s should apply?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Disappointing politics is being played with this but let’s all hope that once there is an announcement politics disappears and both sides get right behind this project. It will need that to succeed, not to mention all the new and revised programs.
Can someone explain why 8 subs are purported to
be on the cards when the rule of 3’s should apply?
Submarines have a higher maintenance, or more to the point, a higher safety and certification load than surface ships.

More work is needed to ensure they are safe and effective, meaning more hulls are needed.
 

76mmGuns

Active Member
It would be far preferable if we returned to a bipartisan approach to major defence acquisitions but this seems unlikely to occur at present. I find it hard to know what Dutton hoped to achieve with this announcement. It looks like attention seeking behaviour.


The kindest thing I can say about Dutton’s remarks is that they are unhelpful.
You are showing your classiness in making such a restrained comment about Dutton. :)

Anyway, I can't wait until the sub announcement is made this month. Perhaps it's a sign of my age that I the last time I felt like this was years ago with the Hunter and Arafura decisions. :)
 

Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
Disappointing politics is being played with this but let’s all hope that once there is an announcement politics disappears and both sides get right behind this project. It will need that to succeed, not to mention all the new and revised programs.
Can someone explain why 8 subs are purported to
be on the cards when the rule of 3’s should apply?
The previous government said “a minimum of 8 SSN’s would be built in Australia for the RAN” - many interpreted this as there being a chance of procuring 9 (rule of 3) or even 10 (rule of 5). I suspect that the lack of money will prevent any additional subs being built unless there’s an outbreak of hostilitie.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Disappointing politics is being played with this but let’s all hope that once there is an announcement politics disappears and both sides get right behind this project. It will need that to succeed, not to mention all the new and revised programs.
Can someone explain why 8 subs are purported to
be on the cards when the rule of 3’s should apply?
Submarines do not really follow the Rule of Threes, but more a similar Rule of Fours. Eight subs in RAN service should be enough to have two subs either available for or already on a deployment. The other six subs would then be either in some sort of training cycle or IMO more likely a maintenance, work up or recovery from deployment cycle. There could be some potential to surge deploy extra subs, depending on where things fall in terms of maintenance and training.

One of the problems that the RAN has seemed to have with only having six Collins-class SSG's was that there was somewhat of an issue in terms of having sufficient assets to achieve a critical mass. Six subs are really only enough to reliably provide one available for or on a deployment. This then has the potential for all sorts of negative flow-on effects, like difficulty establishing and maintaining a pool of submariners as well as keeping their respective skills up.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Submarines do not really follow the Rule of Threes, but more a similar Rule of Fours. Eight subs in RAN service should be enough to have two subs either available for or already on a deployment. The other six subs would then be either in some sort of training cycle or IMO more likely a maintenance, work up or recovery from deployment cycle. There could be some potential to surge deploy extra subs, depending on where things fall in terms of maintenance and training.

One of the problems that the RAN has seemed to have with only having six Collins-class SSG's was that there was somewhat of an issue in terms of having sufficient assets to achieve a critical mass. Six subs are really only enough to reliably provide one available for or on a deployment. This then has the potential for all sorts of negative flow-on effects, like difficulty establishing and maintaining a pool of submariners as well as keeping their respective skills up.
I recall the original number was for eight Collins SSG.

Hopefully we have leant that numbers matter next time.


Cheers S
 
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