Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Never understood the export ban for the F-22 or why it wasn't reconsidered when the cost skyrocketed. Certainly Japan and probably others could have provided perhaps up to 200 additional jets. This might have allowed the USAF to buy an additional 100 jets at a lower cost. The last production F-22 had a cost of $149 million IIRC excluding R&D costs. I wonder how much lower this could have been with 200-300 more jets?
It was a ban put in place by the legislative branch, presumably to prevent US aerospace tech secrets from getting disseminated. It was also just before a number of other nations were to realize that US airpower was in some respects on an entirely different level from everyone else at the time.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
This does put Australia in an awkward position. I feel that possessing a sovereign UCAV capability is vital going forward. You cannot rely on foreign production lines if a major war breaks out.

Australia will probably still get its killer drones but it will now have to decide whether it funds the development of these aircraft itself or goes with a foreign design. Wouldn't expect any decisions any time soon.
I had always assumed the ghost bat would be limited to ISR and be a platform for pushing AI technology. Boeing is still going to be an AI developer more broadly, so can still bring this to the table. It might actually help because they can work with us as their lead platform. There is still a lot of work to do to get a highly capable AI system, and AUKUS pillar2 still includes sharing technology with the US and UK.

The ghost bat only has a nose cone for payload, so never suitable for missile loadouts. It was always going to need an upsized platform to do this. Maybe this comes a bit later.

I do however think there is still a significant role for a small low observable ISR drone that can get close to a target or survey a hostile region well ahead of any human platform. It still provides the F35/F18 pilot the ability to stand back beyond visual range and possibly beyond radar range and still have eyes.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
It was a ban put in place by the legislative branch, presumably to prevent US aerospace tech secrets from getting disseminated. It was also just before a number of other nations were to realize that US airpower was in some respects on an entirely different level from everyone else at the time.
Certainly made sense in the late 1990s early 2000s. I have always struggled with what technologies were above and beyond the F-35 which saw exports starting 5 years prior the the F-22 cancellation. The cyber screw-ups were likely worse than any espionage on possible F-22 jets under allied control. Don’t want to OT the RAAF any further, genuinely curious on this. Another 200 plus jets now, stress relief.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
I had always assumed the ghost bat would be limited to ISR and be a platform for pushing AI technology. Boeing is still going to be an AI developer more broadly, so can still bring this to the table. It might actually help because they can work with us as their lead platform. There is still a lot of work to do to get a highly capable AI system, and AUKUS pillar2 still includes sharing technology with the US and UK.

The ghost bat only has a nose cone for payload, so never suitable for missile loadouts. It was always going to need an upsized platform to do this. Maybe this comes a bit later.

I do however think there is still a significant role for a small low observable ISR drone that can get close to a target or survey a hostile region well ahead of any human platform. It still provides the F35/F18 pilot the ability to stand back beyond visual range and possibly beyond radar range and still have eyes.
Would have a few ghost bats made a difference in this scenario if it was flying 70km ahead of the fighters?
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Would have a few ghost bats made a difference in this scenario if it was flying 70km ahead of the fighters?
I would imagine with something like SM-6 or other long range munitions, its the perfect partner.

Able to go out, observe, datalink to the firing platform, and the munition and PK go all the way up to 100%.
It also means that E7's can stay further back, well out of the way of other, long sticks coming from the enemy. But also keep quieter too, making them harder to track. Really they can have the manned fighters operating at the extreme end of their range, while the drones go forth.

Then with that kind of kill chain, then you could make a stealthier, even longer ranged munition.

Also, could be useful, when operating with P8s, in a range of missions. Lots of options.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Actually reports of an armed version of the Ghost Bat being abandoned is probably just a beatup. The original concept was as a loyal wingman. That there would eventually be a armed version was always speculation. In this case it might still happen but not for quite some time.

 

Wombat000

Well-Known Member
I’ve regarded Ghost Bat in its current form as a technology test bed and concept validator.

i can only presume that it will be easier in the first instance to configure it and employ it in an ISR role.
im guessing if there is some modularity in its design then further weapons carriage could/would be evolved, to complete its namesake ‘loyal wingman’ intent.

im remaining confident that if the project has genuine longterm potential, then it will continue despite any dramas from contracting issues that may arise.
 

MickB

Well-Known Member
And meanwhile in other news this is a major disappointment to say the least, what the !! is going on here !! The Ghost Bat is basically dusted and useless !!



Like any newly introduced tech or weapon system in is crawl, walk ,run.
The original was always to be an ISR platform.

Several posters here have commented in the past that the Ghost Bat in is current form was too slow and too short ranged to truly fulfill the air combat teaming role. But ISR is a force multiplier on its own.

No one in the ADF ever refered to them as "killer drones".
That was all media BS.

Wait for Ghost Bat 2 or 3 and see what evolves..
 
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StevoJH

The Bunker Group
Wait for Ghost Bat 2 or 3 and see what evolves..
If General Atomics can develop and iterate from the MQ-1 Predator and end up with the MQ-9 Reaper and later jet power variants, what can Boeing and the RAAF do with Ghost Bat which is starting from a much more advanced base platform?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
If General Atomics can develop and iterate from the MQ-1 Predator and end up with the MQ-9 Reaper and later jet power variants, what can Boeing and the RAAF do with Ghost Bat which is starting from a much more advanced base platform?
Probably lots if funds are available but given Boeing’s situation…..
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
There are a couple things we should consider when talking about arming drones such as the MQ-28. First consideration is payload.

I haven’t seen any official figures but similar sized drones often only have a payload of maybe 500kg. That will get you a couple of small missiles or bombs. A fraction of what a manned combat aircraft could carry.

To be an effective combat drone would require you to scale it up and add a bigger perhaps military spec engine.

While this would give you a more capable combat drone that would raise the next issue, cost. One of the appeals of drones is that they are cheap.

The Boeing stablemate of the Ghost Bag is the MQ-25. A far more capable drone with a price tag of around $136 million each. The more capability you want the more you have to pay.

The linked story discusses the USN requirements for CCAs. To summarise, it will be cheap, live a short, hard life and eventually be used for target practice or as a Kamikaze drone.

The planned fate of our own drones might not be much different. During actual war they will be sent on the most dangerous missions often required to sacrifice themselves to achieve that mission. If by some miracle they manage to survive a few missions their ultimate fate might be to swap out its nose cone for a warhead and end its days as cruise missile.

In Australia’s case it has already shown its hand as far as its future capabilities are concerned. Deployable missile batteries, optionally crewed missile barges, SSNs, more naval VLS, long range missiles and eventually hypersonic weapons.

Not hard to work out how valuable ISR and target acquisition becomes in that scenario. Truth is that a cheap disposal drone might be all we need.

 
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SammyC

Well-Known Member
I think its pertinent to note that the first implemented functions for AI drones are in non strike roles. MQ28 as ISR, MQ25 as a refueller. Using the walk before you can run argument, building a combat AI drone is, I would view, a function to look at after the above is perfected.

Costs for both platforms are high as they are either in prototyping (MQ28) or initial low rate production (MQ25). One would expect per unit prices to come down when in larger numbers.

I think the other point is that there is unlikely to be one drone to rule them all. No reason why the MQ28 can't mature as a specialist (and top rate) compact stealth ISR platform, MQ25 as a larger capable refueller, able to get closer to the mission area than a KC30, and then later a different or evolved platform is developed as a missile truck drone with internal space for several JSM/LRASM style weapons.

This keeps them simple, low cost and easier to get into high rate production. If they become multirole, then they become expensive.

Perhaps Australia concentrates on making the best ISR drone for ourselves and for export to our allies, and we import the other drone types from our alllies.
 
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Tbone

Member
How long would it take to develop weapon systems for the ghost bat? As I’m aware the nose of the jet can be swapped over with different sensors. My question is we have seen enough images of the jet so where will the ghost bat store its possible weapons? Internal bays been identified to keep low observability or hard points? What small cruise missiles could it launch?
 

Tbone

Member
So.. if the ghost bay does become a non weaponised platform then does that mean we are going to buy more F-35’s?? As this is becoming a nightmare.. the point not to buy my fighter jets was because the ghost bay coould be produced in best numbers and triple out airforce. Now we are left with more ISR platforms.. just buy 28 F-35B’s put them on the Canberra class decks and have them give air over to RAN Ships leaving the airforce to strike from northern bases with tankers.. I’m shocked this government is so one dimensional and budget is used to not defend and increase our capability now while we have a chance.
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
How long would it take to develop weapon systems for the ghost bat? As I’m aware the nose of the jet can be swapped over with different sensors. My question is we have seen enough images of the jet so where will the ghost bat store its possible weapons? Internal bays been identified to keep low observability or hard points? What small cruise missiles could it launch?
From available internet information on the MQ28:
  • Length:11.2 metres
  • Dry weight: 1.5 tonnes
  • Max weight: 3 tonnes
  • Max payload:500kg (Inc sensor package)
  • Engine power: 1,600 lbs
If we compare this to an F35
  • Length:15.7 metres
  • Dry weight: 13 tonnes
  • Max weight: 29 tonnes
  • Max payoad: 8 tonnes (2.2 tonnes internal)
  • Engine power: 43,OO0 lbs
For note, a JSM weights about 450kg and a LRASM is about 1.1 tonnes. My new favourite air to air weapon the SM6 comes in at about 1.5 tonnes.

Also for comparison. The MQ25 has an engine power for about 10,000 lbs and a payload capacity of 7 tonnes (currently used for fuel but could be swapped for weapons).

So the MQ28 as it currently is, is a lightweight. It has enough capacity for its ISR load. It does not have the payload for a weapons fit out.

To be a weapons platform a drone would need to be in the size category of the MQ25.

Maybe we will get a future version of the MQ25 or General Atomics CCA proposal, or perhaps an MQ28 later batch will come up sized.

I tend to think the complicated part of an AI drone is the intelligence and sensing integration. I don't think it would be hard to make a larger more powerful frame to hold and use weapons.
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
So.. if the ghost bay does become a non weaponised platform then does that mean we are going to buy more F-35’s?? As this is becoming a nightmare.. the point not to buy my fighter jets was because the ghost bay coould be produced in best numbers and triple out airforce. Now we are left with more ISR platforms.. just buy 28 F-35B’s put them on the Canberra class decks and have them give air over to RAN Ships leaving the airforce to strike from northern bases with tankers.. I’m shocked this government is so one dimensional and budget is used to not defend and increase our capability now while we have a chance.
The ADF might still end up getting some sort of UCAV, right now we just do not know. There might be purchases of more F-35's, or something else entirely different. Again, the information available at present does not really give much guidance.

Having said that, F-35B's on the Canberra-class LHD's has been discussed here on DT, multiple times, to the point that some might describe it as being ad nauseam... I really do not wish to have such discussion again, unless/until actual new information comes out so I will just do a brief recap.

Yes, the LHD's have the potential for basic F-35B ops, but were never really designed and built for sustained fixed wing high tempo ops. Fixed wing ops would also come at the expense of other operational capabilities the LHD's have and would also be limited in capability because there is a limit to what each LHD can support. If memory serves, the hangar could accommodate eight medium helicopters or F-35B's, or up to 18 medium helicopters (but not F-35B's) if the adjacent light vehicle deck is also used. This in turn means that the max aviation support possible if embarking F-35B's would be ~eight F-35B's and up to 10 medium helicopters, all at the expense of embarked vehicles since the light vehicle deck would be serving as an auxiliary helicopter hangar. Now an embarked force of eight F-35B's might be enough to maintain a two-ship CAP flight with the potential to surge more fast jets into the air if needed to intercept some of the time. Unfortunately though, any RAN TF, even if it had an organic CAP, would still be lacking organic AEW and without the broad area surveillance capabilities like AEW the ability of a TF to make effective use of organic CAP or fighter intercept capabilities would be sharply limited.

With that in mind, I think there would be much greater benefit to the ADF if some sort of AEW capability which could be embarked aboard RAN vessels, before any notion of getting fixed wing aircraft to operate from RAN vessels again.
 

Wombat000

Well-Known Member
Perhaps the real value of Ghost Bat is its technology; communications, manned partner control and potential AI issues?
I can only guess that possibly the tech inside the airframe that’s the target value, with the airframe providing the vehicle.
this is IMHO only a test bed flying model.

its current actual capability might be suggestive of an ISR role, but the resulting flight technology may be transferable to more weapons suitable vehicle designs?
 

SammyC

Well-Known Member
So.. if the ghost bay does become a non weaponised platform then does that mean we are going to buy more F-35’s?? As this is becoming a nightmare.. the point not to buy my fighter jets was because the ghost bay coould be produced in best numbers and triple out airforce. Now we are left with more ISR platforms.. just buy 28 F-35B’s put them on the Canberra class decks and have them give air over to RAN Ships leaving the airforce to strike from northern bases with tankers.. I’m shocked this government is so one dimensional and budget is used to not defend and increase our capability now while we have a chance.
I would have liked to have seen another squadron of F35s as well. Would prefer the A rather than B, as it sacrifices about 20% of its combat radius and payload for the STOVL capability.

Budgets are a bugger. There is never enough for everything.

I think the super hornets however are better than originally thought, hence the decision to keep them longer.

Drones are rapidly evolving. The capability in 12 months time will be substantially different to now, and even more in 24 months time. Even if we only have ISR and fuelling drones for the time being, that is still a substantial force multiplier. It provides first short capability and penetration capacity to an F35.

I actually think that our limiting factor will be missiles, not airframes. If we had spare cash I would suggest this would be a better investment. Get me some of those SM6 air launched versions.
 
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Bluey 006

Active Member
its current actual capability might be suggestive of an ISR role, but the resulting flight technology may be transferable to more weapons suitable vehicle designs?
Yes, mastering the technology locally is undeniably where the value lies. Which is why it would have been good to develop, integrate, and test it to the full extent of its capability, including arming it. So that all industrial expertise exists, the local supply chain is activated, the kinks are worked out, the lessons learnt, and the doctrine and tactics have been refined to fit our needs. So that should the need arise, we can design, mass produce, and arm larger drones independently.

With the current dynamics of the global environment. I don't think anything can be taken for granted.
 
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