Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[StingrayOZ]

Would it also be fair to suggest the development and deployment of unmanned systems makes it harder to suggest what is needed?

IMO most unmanned systems are a beyond 2027 thing. Unless its in FOC somewhere today, it drifts off into the future.
Wars are generally fought with the generation of equipment that was available at the time. Eg the jet engine was in development, and even small scale production before the war. But was not able to make significant effect during the whole of WW2 from either side. I think unmanned systems are sort of in the same space. There is certainly a space for them, they are currently deployed. But its Tridents and Bayraktars and smaller sensor drones.. If we are awaiting 7th gen AI unmanned orbital fighters, we will be awaiting post the 2027 period.

Even things like 5th gen stealth are likely to be complimented by 4 and 4.5 gen planes going forward for a long time yet.

There is one other possible buyer for the SHornet and that is the Indian Navy, it recently proved it can do short take offs from the Indian Navy STOBAR Carriers, with an USN aircraft using the IN trg facility.

Its in the running, but its not the only thing being looked at. Indian defence decisions can also take a while to be fully funded and placed.

Australia sneaking in an order for another ~12 SH to bring it up 48 (ie two full squadrons), is probably different to the Indian order, which would likely have to wait until after the USN order. AFAIK the Indian order is like for ~28 airframes. IMO the Indians should totally go for the Superhornet, but that could drag out for sometime yet. Even if the USN gave Australia 6 advanced slots, that would still be a pretty huge leap to bringing capability online earlier.

But time is ticking away.

As we see with the Ukraine conflict, E7, MC-55a, P8 and Growler capabilities can be in high demand. We can help allies from the edges of the battlespace with these enablers. There is a huge shortage of that kind of capability in NATO and Western Nations.

Taiwan is still desperately trying to replace its F-5's.. And is still scrambling them as of the 8th of August 2022 to intercept Chinese aircraft.

 

[Redlands18]

IMO most unmanned systems are a beyond 2027 thing. Unless its in FOC somewhere today, it drifts off into the future.
Wars are generally fought with the generation of equipment that was available at the time. Eg the jet engine was in development, and even small scale production before the war. But was not able to make significant effect during the whole of WW2 from either side. I think unmanned systems are sort of in the same space. There is certainly a space for them, they are currently deployed. But its Tridents and Bayraktars and smaller sensor drones.. If we are awaiting 7th gen AI unmanned orbital fighters, we will be awaiting post the 2027 period.

Even things like 5th gen stealth are likely to be complimented by 4 and 4.5 gen planes going forward for a long time yet.


Its in the running, but its not the only thing being looked at. Indian defence decisions can also take a while to be fully funded and placed.

Australia sneaking in an order for another ~12 SH to bring it up 48 (ie two full squadrons), is probably different to the Indian order, which would likely have to wait until after the USN order. AFAIK the Indian order is like for ~28 airframes. IMO the Indians should totally go for the Superhornet, but that could drag out for sometime yet. Even if the USN gave Australia 6 advanced slots, that would still be a pretty huge leap to bringing capability online earlier.

But time is ticking away.

As we see with the Ukraine conflict, E7, MC-55a, P8 and Growler capabilities can be in high demand. We can help allies from the edges of the battlespace with these enablers. There is a huge shortage of that kind of capability in NATO and Western Nations.

Taiwan is still desperately trying to replace its F-5's.. And is still scrambling them as of the 8th of August 2022 to intercept Chinese aircraft.

Not sure if the Growler would be available for India but a combined SHornet/Growler buy would make a lot of sense.

 

[seaspear]

Is there any advantage for looking at later versions of the Eurofighter now that it is being provided more advanced capabilities?

 

[StingrayOZ]

Is there any advantage for looking at later versions of the Eurofighter now that it is being provided more advanced capabilities?

Not for Australia.

Not exactly got a lot of antishipping capability there with Marte, which is both fairly simple, old and light.. Really other than some A2A stuff its not really compatible with a lot of Australia's munitions. For someone like Indonesia, it makes some sense, and is a reasonable option for a "nonaligned" nation. Its mission is still more euro centric air to air with some air to ground. Remembering the UK maritime aircraft is the F-35B and the French use Rafael.

New builds aren't cheap either, and integration with US systems and weapons is weak. There are more Super Hornets than Eurofighters worldwide. US has a huge inventory of spares and high tempo fleet operations usage. Integrated into everything and the backbone of the USN for the next 20+ years.

Superhornet is compatible with our existing stocks of Harpoon/JASSM/JDAM/JSOW. So if the STHTF thats a pretty big compatible inventory to go with that we have spent ~40 years building.

 

[seaspear]

I am not sure if this has been covered before apologies if so ,my query is should Australia look to be involved in
the longer term projects of sixth generation craft under development, these of course are many years off but the front runner might be the F/A-XX
Sixth generation fighter aircraft: rise of the F/A-XX - Airforce Technology (airforce-technology.com)
I am not aware of of any agreement that allows this aircraft to be sold to allied countries ,but the tempest program involving the U.K Sweden Italy and Japan may have merit , so should Australia seek to be involved in this concept program ?

 

[Bob53]

The F-18 Superhornet line is expected to cease production around 2025.
So if an order was placed, it is entirely conceivable that the planes could be produced, the USN may allow earlier spots, but even if not its not a huge wait. USN is probably happy to delay final plane delivery as long as possible. Certainly a F-18 SH order is more doable in that time frame than F-35. The Swiss order is starting delivery around 2027.

I'm not sure we need more E7's, we already operate quite a large fleet, much larger than UK, Turkey, South Korea (like as big as UK and Turkey combined). Also the US is absolutely desperate for this aircraft so I don't see any other nations pushing in front of the US for that kind of aircraft. However, we should consider upgrading ours with relevant upgrades the US is making to their E7's.

I think its reasonable to order 1-2 extra P8's, delivery and standing them up might be doable. But this is looking like a Boeing sponsored solution event.

The time frame I see commonly is 5 years. 2027. Several countries have started to shift their plans to really put future capabilities in two categories.
pre-2027 and post-2027. Near and far. Taiwan, Japan, South korea etc. The US too. We are seeing plans to more lower priority the long term capabilities and raise the short term capabilities.

As we get closer to 2027, people expect things to unravel. So supply chains will either start to fall apart or become occupied with larger domestic orders. So by 2027 you would really want to be seeing IOC-FOC by then not just a potential delivery date.

Post 2027 is murky. Even if it isn't exactly jan 1 2027 things fall apart, there is now a bit of a line being drawn around capabilities that can be stood up quickly and more longer term strategies.

It Seems in ADF procurement perfect is the enemy of progress. There is a threat and it’s looming. Look at poland and they see a threat. A few of the top guys make an assessment based on what they see and they place orders for around 1000 tanks and 500 Himars. Here …. We do a review.

In AU we take 5-15 years to decide what we want. Cross ts and dot i s and then blow out the costs and delay the procurement with scope creep and everyone is astounded the some of the stuff cost 2 times what was forecasted when the project was mooted15 years earlier . Mr Dithers and his team running the show.

 

[ngatimozart]

It Seems in ADF procurement perfect is the enemy of progress. There is a threat and it’s looming. Look at poland and they see a threat. A few of the top guys make an assessment based on what they see and they place orders for around 1000 tanks and 500 Himars. Here …. We do a review.

In AU we take 5-15 years to decide what we want. Cross ts and dot i s and then blow out the costs and delay the procurement with scope creep and everyone is astounded the some of the stuff cost 2 times what was forecasted when the project was mooted15 years earlier . Mr Dithers and his team running the show.

It's not like going down to the Big W, K Mart, or your local car dealership and just pick something up. It's a long way to the money tree just past the black stump. Treasurers tend to get side tracked and lost in the outback on their way there. So are you suggesting a military dictatorship where the military control the Treasury benches?

 

[oldsig127]

It Seems in ADF procurement perfect is the enemy of progress. There is a threat and it’s looming. Look at poland and they see a threat. A few of the top guys make an assessment based on what they see and they place orders for around 1000 tanks and 500 Himars. Here …. We do a review.

Poland see a threat on the other side of a dotted line on the map and a war actually in progress. Our threat is in the other hemisphere and war possible but not actually happening now Poland has an unchallenged right wing government, we have a leftish wing government reliant on the support of far left green pacifists or floor crossing from our Right(ish) opposition to do anything. How do you propose we do what Poland is *trying* to do (because orders are not the same things as tanks and aircraft being available)

oldsig127

 

[Bob53]

It's not like going down to the Big W, K Mart, or your local car dealership and just pick something up. It's a long way to the money tree just past the black stump. Treasurers tend to get side tracked and lost in the outback on their way there. So are you suggesting a military dictatorship where the military control the Treasury benches?

No not suggesting heading down to do the shopping on pay day…. not all all but are you suggesting that 5-10 years just to decide what is required is working for us?

 

[Bob53]

Poland see a threat on the other side of a dotted line on the map and a war actually in progress. Our threat is in the other hemisphere and war possible but not actually happening now Poland has an unchallenged right wing government, we have a leftish wing government reliant on the support of far left green pacifists or floor crossing from our Right(ish) opposition to do anything. How do you propose we do what Poland is *trying* to do (because orders are not the same things as tanks and aircraft being available)

oldsig127

Old Sig from what I read our threat is looming now …do you suggest we wait to see what happens a bit longer? I used Poland as the contrast to us though. I didn’t suggest that is how we should do things. But I ask the question ….why can’t decision on requirements at least be made at senior levels within a given budget without all the teeth gnashing? It hasn’t mattered what flavour government we have had over the past 25 years …if anything making decisions are going to be harder going forward ….with as you mention …any support or greens, teals or the voice if it gets up is probably going to require political buy offs, delays and challenges. The 2 former groups seem to think the government has an endless supply of money and all the billionaires can be taxed more to pay for the rest.

With a few exceptions we seem to just stumble along and have this paralysis of decision and such a cumbersome procurement process. I think you have commented on this yourself a few times. If we were building a fighter jet from scratch I could understand a 15 or 20+ year process but we in most cases buy off the shelf platforms.

 

[Volkodav]

Poland see a threat on the other side of a dotted line on the map and a war actually in progress. Our threat is in the other hemisphere and war possible but not actually happening now Poland has an unchallenged right wing government, we have a leftish wing government reliant on the support of far left green pacifists or floor crossing from our Right(ish) opposition to do anything. How do you propose we do what Poland is *trying* to do (because orders are not the same things as tanks and aircraft being available)

oldsig127

Poland is at the point of needing gear now, while Australia is at the point of needing to grow industrial capability and the associated design and engineering skills, together with building up the ADFs ability to expand. Stuff the Greens, if the opposition really care about the country they will work with the government and support good policy while negotiating to improve bad policy as the old guard such as Nick Minchin used to do.

 

[Mikeymike]

Due to Poland seeing a threat next door and having a population open to military expansion they are also willing to up their spending to pay for it. This combined with their plans mainly being just an expansion of the air force and army to fight a single scenario land war means there is less force structure questions and comes down to mostly what platforms they can get into service in the timeframe required.

They are currently spending ~2%, have committed to up to 3% and eventually aiming for 5% of GDP. source

Australia has the complications of trying to spend a limited budget that is mostly already allocated whilst trying to balance a force structure across Air Force, Navy and Army that's usefulness would depend highly on the scenario being faced.

 

[Redlands18]

Exercise Pitch Black begins in Darwin after COVID hiatus, with Germany, Japan and South Korea joining for the first time - ABC News
Exercise Pitch Black kicked off Friday in the Northern Territory after being cancelled in 2020 with an Airshow on Friday night over Darwin(check video from ABC in link above). There is over 100 aircraft involved from 17 nations including for the first time Typhoons from Germany and F-2s from Japan, ROK is also a first time participant. RAAF F-35s will participate in Pitch Black for the first time along with RAAF Growlers and RAAF F-15s, (great fact checking by the ABC yet again, that should of course be FA-18Fs).

Other participants include NZ, US, Canada, UK, Netherlands, France, UK, the UAE, India(SU-35s), Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines, Thailand and Malaysia. There will also be an open day. You have got to love the ABC, only talked about Darwin, completely ignoring that it would also be operating out of RAAF Tindall 300kms to the south.

 

[MickB]

Exercise Pitch Black begins in Darwin after COVID hiatus, with Germany, Japan and South Korea joining for the first time - ABC News
Exercise Pitch Black kicked off Friday in the Northern Territory after being cancelled in 2020 with an Airshow on Friday night over Darwin(check video from ABC in link above). There is over 100 aircraft involved from 17 nations including for the first time Typhoons from Germany and F-2s from Japan, ROK is also a first time participant. RAAF F-35s will participate in Pitch Black for the first time along with RAAF Growlers and RAAF F-15s, (great fact checking by the ABC yet again, that should of course be FA-18Fs).

Other participants include NZ, US, Canada, UK, Netherlands, France, UK, the UAE, India(SU-35s), Indonesia, Singapore, Philippines, Thailand and Malaysia. There will also be an open day. You have got to love the ABC, only talked about Darwin, completely ignoring that it would also be operating out of RAAF Tindall 300kms to the south.

We have all read the impresive kill to loss ratio of the F35 in Red Flag exercises.
Will be interesting to see how to RAAF F35s stack up against F 2, SU 35, Typhoon and Rafale.

Edit, Just read on the RAAF Pitch Black site that India is bringing SU 30 not SU 35.

 

[Redlands18]

We have all read the impresive kill to loss ratio of the F35 in Red Flag exercises.
Will be interesting to see how to RAAF F35s stack up against F 2, SU 35, Typhoon and Rafale.

Edit, Just read on the RAAF Pitch Black site that India is bringing SU 30 not SU 35.

Thanks for your edit, think I got my 35s mixed up, meant SU-30. Doubt we will get much released information on aircraft performance, They are not going to admit to any poor performance anyway if it did happen.

Anyone who hasn't. highly recommend you read "Air Power 101" and also "why this V that discussion is unproductive" found on this site. They show how military exercises work and how you train to defeat your enemies not your allies.

 

[oldsig127]

Exercise Pitch Black begins in Darwin after COVID hiatus, with Germany, Japan and South Korea joining for the first time - ABC News
Exercise Pitch Black kicked off Friday in the Northern Territory after being cancelled in 2020 with an Airshow on Friday night over Darwin(check video from ABC in link above). There is over 100 aircraft involved from 17 nations including for the first time Typhoons from Germany and F-2s from Japan, ROK is also a first time participant. RAAF F-35s will participate in Pitch Black for the first time along with RAAF Growlers and RAAF F-15s, (great fact checking by the ABC yet again, that should of course be FA-18Fs).

It's been updated to Super Hornet so someone must have noticed or been told.

Still no mention of anywhere other yhan Darwin though!

oldsig

 

[Redlands18]

It's been updated to Super Hornet so someone must have noticed or been told.

Still no mention of anywhere other yhan Darwin though!

oldsig

Exercise Pitch Black 2022 | Royal Australian Air Force
The RAAF site has both Tindal and Amberley being used.

 

[oldsig127]

Exercise Pitch Black 2022 | Royal Australian Air Force
The RAAF site has both Tindal and Amberley being used.

Yes, I know, and it's been that way for years, but I meant that ABC fixed up the RAAF Eagle bollocks on their report but still hadn't mentioned Tindal at all.

 

[Milne Bay]

I hope that the exercise includes blue team and red team having to deal with infantry with manpads behind every rock and bush.
Seems to me that this is an ingredient that can ruin anyone's day
MB

 

[oldsig127]

I hope that the exercise includes blue team and red team having to deal with infantry with manpads behind every rock and bush.
Seems to me that this is an ingredient that can ruin anyone's day
MB

It's certainly why low and slow ground support like the A-10 is an expensive indulgence.

oldsig