Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[ngatimozart]

The second sentence of the original quote directly mentions software. Then you mentioned incremental upgrades / capability upgrades - to me that alluded to software (generally that is what delivers the upgrades in modern aircraft). If it is just innovative use/training then it’s debatable if it’s an “Upgrade”.

Ok, you need to look at what the RAAF are doing in context with the Wedgetail and its continual improvements. You have to think outside the normal upgrade MLU etc., program pathways, because that is not what happens on the Wedgetail. Read this: From “Troubled” to Trailblazing Program: The Wedgetail and 21st Century Combat Innovation - Second Line of Defense. So it becomes a continuously evolving program From “Troubled” to Trailblazing Program: The Wedgetail and 21st Century Combat Innovation - Second Line of Defense. That is why I say the same will happen with the P-8. It's operator lead with annual software upgrades, not headquarters / industry lead with one ot two MLUs over the program lifetime.

 

[oldsig127]

The R.A.A.F purchased some 70 anti radiation missiles for its "Growlers" should consideration be given for equiping its f35a,s as an aircraft that is stealthy would normally have that role of finding radars

I'd imagine that the facts that our F-35s have yet to reach IOC, and F-35 AARGM is still at best at RFI, but we have EF18-G tasked already with SEAD means that nothing has been done other than "considering options" at this point. I suppose it will be something getting a lot more attention as planning for the "extra" F-35 (or other advanced platforms) progresses. However, I can't imagine that stealth aircraft like F-35s will routinely be tasked with jamming (which by definition makes stealth a bit redundant), so perhaps the F-18G is where it'll remain for a while.

That said, my expertise is foirmly ground based and very old

oldsig

 

[south]

Ok, you need to look at what the RAAF are doing in context with the Wedgetail and its continual improvements. You have to think outside the normal upgrade MLU etc., program pathways, because that is not what happens on the Wedgetail. Read this: From “Troubled” to Trailblazing Program: The Wedgetail and 21st Century Combat Innovation - Second Line of Defense. So it becomes a continuously evolving program From “Troubled” to Trailblazing Program: The Wedgetail and 21st Century Combat Innovation - Second Line of Defense. That is why I say the same will happen with the P-8. It's operator lead with annual software upgrades, not headquarters / industry lead with one ot two MLUs over the program lifetime.

Right, but there is a significant difference in your freedom between being the capability lead, as the article notes the RAAF is regarding E-7A; or being a partner (significantly junior, USN is buying roughly 10x our buy) in the case of P-8.

 

[John Newman]

Right, but there is a significant difference in your freedom between being the capability lead, as the article notes the RAAF is regarding E-7A; or being a partner (significantly junior, USN is buying roughly 10x our buy) in the case of P-8.

I don't think things are as 'bleak' as you suggest, yes of course the USN is the lead, but Australia has also had skin (and money) in the game in development of P-8A capabilities since very early in the program. And I can imagine as the 'user group' increases in numbers and size there will probably be input for future development from that larger user group too.

In any event, the USN has plans for a number expanded P-8A capabilities in the coming years.

Navy To Greatly Expand P-8 Poseidon's Mission With New Missiles, Mines, Bombs, And Decoys

The plan reflects the better part of a decade of debate about expanding the roles and missions of these maritime patrol aircraft.

www.thedrive.com

Cheers,

 

[south]

I don't think things are as 'bleak' as you suggest, yes of course the USN is the lead, but Australia has also had skin (and money) in the game in development of P-8A capabilities since very early in the program. And I can imagine as the 'user group' increases in numbers and size there will probably be input for future development from that larger user group too.

In any event, the USN has plans for a number expanded P-8A capabilities in the coming years.

Navy To Greatly Expand P-8 Poseidon's Mission With New Missiles, Mines, Bombs, And Decoys

The plan reflects the better part of a decade of debate about expanding the roles and missions of these maritime patrol aircraft.

www.thedrive.com

Cheers,

I'm not trying to imply that it is bleak. Partnership and cooperation often works better. The US clearly value ADF partnership in a host of projects, and they will invest significant amounts of blood, sweat and treasure into delivering capability from P-8 (sums of money and expertise that the ADF likely would not be able to provide on their own).... However if the USN want to go one way with a capability decision, and the RAAF want to go another, who has the biggest vote? In addition the USN will introduce a further layer of bureaucracy that the RAAF have not had to deal with; case in point RAAF operators want a change, now it has to go through additional process for prioritisation.

The bottom line is that the RAAF will not have the freedom with P-8 to make direct capability decisions they have had with E-7. One of the advantages of being a (relatively) small organisation owning the capability...

 

[John Newman]

I'm not trying to imply that it is bleak. Partnership and cooperation often works better. The US clearly value ADF partnership in a host of projects, and they will invest significant amounts of blood, sweat and treasure into delivering capability from P-8 (sums of money and expertise that the ADF likely would not be able to provide on their own).... However if the USN want to go one way with a capability decision, and the RAAF want to go another, who has the biggest vote? In addition the USN will introduce a further layer of bureaucracy that the RAAF have not had to deal with; case in point RAAF operators want a change, now it has to go through additional process for prioritisation.

The bottom line is that the RAAF will not have the freedom with P-8 to make direct capability decisions they have had with E-7. One of the advantages of being a (relatively) small organisation owning the capability...

I agree that the big dog in the fight usually gets it's way, but on the subject of how divergent the wants and needs of the USN and RAAF will be in the future, I doubt that those wants and needs will be at opposite ends of the stick.

I think that it will be in the interest of the USN, RAAF and all the other P-8A users to work as closely as possible to ensure 'commonality' amongst the users, and not just for upgrade purposes but for interoperability purposes too.

If you have a look at where the Global P-3 started out and where it is today, there appears to be very little commonality other than a 'visual' similarity between the various fleets.

If we look at the F-35 program, yes not all users are going to use the same weapons, different users (or groups of users) will arm their aircraft in a certain way, but I would imagine that the 'core' of what the F-35 is, will only be different from a software point of view and not vastly different from a hardware point of view.

Staying 'lock step' is a far more efficient and beneficial way to move forward.

Cheers,

 

[MARKMILES77]

Australia has sold some/all of it’s remaining Hornets to AIR USA for use as Red Air aircraft.
Hopefully a few kept for museums.
The Minister for Defence Industry Melissa Price revealed this Today.

@MARKMILES77 SOURCE!!!!!! YOU'VE BEEN ON HERE LONG ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT YOU HAVE TO SUPPLY THE SOURCE.
NGATIMOZART

 

[hauritz]

Australia has sold some/all of it’s remaining Hornets to AIR USA for use as Red Air aircraft.
Hopefully a few kept for museums.
The Minister for Defence Industry Melissa Price revealed this Today.

@MARKMILES77 SOURCE!!!!!! YOU'VE BEEN ON HERE LONG ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT YOU HAVE TO SUPPLY THE SOURCE.
NGATIMOZART

Actually I was about to post the same thing.

Minister for Defence Industry - F/A-18 disposal provides Hunter region jobs

THE HON MELISSA PRICE MPMinister for Defence IndustryMember for DurackF/A-18 DISPOSAL PROVIDES HUNTER REGION JOBSWorkers at RAAF Base Williamtown will

www.miragenews.com

I imagine that the RAAF 3SQN will have just about fully converted to the F-35 by now. The announcement sounds like up to 46 of the classic hornets have been retired or are on the verge of retirement.

 

[t68]

Actually I was about to post the same thing.

Minister for Defence Industry - F/A-18 disposal provides Hunter region jobs

THE HON MELISSA PRICE MPMinister for Defence IndustryMember for DurackF/A-18 DISPOSAL PROVIDES HUNTER REGION JOBSWorkers at RAAF Base Williamtown will

www.miragenews.com

I imagine that the RAAF 3SQN will have just about fully converted to the F-35 by now. The announcement sounds like up to 46 of the classic hornets have been retired or are on the verge of retirement.

Yeah according to that article we have received 20 airframes, that training component in the USA use it multiple nations airframes in a pool should be nearing completion soon, can’t remember the date that they start all F35 training in house

 

[Redlands18]

Actually I was about to post the same thing.

Minister for Defence Industry - F/A-18 disposal provides Hunter region jobs

THE HON MELISSA PRICE MPMinister for Defence IndustryMember for DurackF/A-18 DISPOSAL PROVIDES HUNTER REGION JOBSWorkers at RAAF Base Williamtown will

www.miragenews.com

I imagine that the RAAF 3SQN will have just about fully converted to the F-35 by now. The announcement sounds like up to 46 of the classic hornets have been retired or are on the verge of retirement.

Up to 46 to Air USA. 18 to the RCAF, should leave about 6 or 7 or so for Museums, Gate Guards etc, suspect the AWM would like one considering their operational service in the ME in 2003 and from 2014/15 onwards.

 

[hauritz]

Up to 46 to Air USA. 18 to the RCAF, should leave about 6 or 7 or so for Museums, Gate Guards etc, suspect the AWM would like one considering their operational service in the ME in 2003 and from 2014/15 onwards.

Didn't we agree to sell 25 to Canada?

Deal finalised for Canada’s purchase of Australian fighter jets

Canada have committed to the purchase of 25 F-18 aircraft from Australia, with the first fighter expected to be operating within the next 6 months.

www.defenceconnect.com.au

That would be 25 to Canada and the remaining 46 to Air USA. None for the museums.
Not only that but the money raised will probably just go into consolidated revenue so the Air Force won't even get any funds out of the sale.

 

[John Newman]

Didn't we agree to sell 25 to Canada?

Yep, that's my understanding too.

Canada is planning to have 18 operational airframes and the additional seven are for parts. And the 'up to' 46 to Air USA would total 71, eg, the entire Classic fleet.

But I don't know that we should all get too excited, 'up to' is not a hard and fast figure as yet, and I also read somewhere a while ago that Canada may not actually require all 25 airframes (can't find link at the moment).

I do remember reading a while ago on ADF-Serials that A21-40 was planned to be retired to the AWM.

ADF Serials - F/A-18A&B Hornet

Report from ADBR:

https://adbr.com.au/no-landfill-for-raaf-hornets-but-will-museums-miss-out/

If it does turn our that all 71 are sold off shore, there may be a condition in place that some are returned to Oz at time of retirement, but again, I think we just need to wait for confirmation.

Cheers,

 

[John Newman]

I imagine that the RAAF 3SQN will have just about fully converted to the F-35 by now.

The announcement sounds like up to 46 of the classic hornets have been retired or are on the verge of retirement.

Nope, not yet on either count.

Don't forget that 3 Sqn and 2 OCU are both currently re-equipping with F-35A (20 have reported to have been handed over, and another two have been test flown), by end of this year the RAAF should have received 33 airframes, that gives you roughly two Squadrons of aircraft.

ADF Serials - F-35 Lightning

By the end the year 3 Sqn is planned to reach IOC, 77 Sqn will start in 2021 and lastly 75 Sqn will start in 2022.

Whilst both 3 Sqn and 2 OCU will have parked their airframes, the RAAF still needs enough airframes available for the next couple of years until all four Squadrons have completed their transition.

Cheers,

 

[FormerDirtDart]

Up to 46 to Air USA. 18 to the RCAF, should leave about 6 or 7 or so for Museums, Gate Guards etc, suspect the AWM would like one considering their operational service in the ME in 2003 and from 2014/15 onwards.

Flight Global says 25 to the RCAF. 18 for operational use, and 7 as for spare parts & testing
Also states 46 to Air USA.

 

[oldsig127]

Flight Global says 25 to the RCAF. 18 for operational use, and 7 as for spare parts & testing
Also states 46 to Air USA.

It actually states "up to 46", which may well mean all of those not already promised elsewhere. It's probably worth a question to the minister rather than assuming the whole 46 will go

oldsig

 

[hauritz]

Not only will Australia's F-18 fleet continue to soldier on after they have been withdrawn from service but a number of the RAAFs Mirage III fighters are still flying with Pakistan Air Force.

Project ROSE - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pakistan bought 50 Mirage III back in 1991 and I think some of them could remain in service until they are replaced by the J-17 around 2030.

 

[ngatimozart]

The APDR has a less pessimistic view and even sees this as an opportunity to bring forward the program for Australia by taking up the production slots originally held by the USN.

Triton Australia responds to USN MQ-4C Triton production freeze

Northrop Grumman Australia responds to USN MQ-4C Triton production freeze. Visit the Asia Pacific Defence Reporter to read more.

asiapacificdefencereporter.com

The article seems to indicate that the USN still considers the Triton a crucial asset and the production pause has more to do with allowing extra time to develop the IFC-4 system.

The Triton offers a unique set of capabilities and it is hard to see how that capability could be replaced. I couldn't even imagine how many extra manned aircraft you would need to replace the 24/7 patrol capability of the Triton.

Looks like Northrop have made an offer directly to Australia, Northrop offers Triton drones to Australia, as US budget request pauses orders, possibly one that the CoA may find tempting.

 

[swerve]

Not only will Australia's F-18 fleet continue to soldier on after they have been withdrawn from service but a number of the RAAFs Mirage III fighters are still flying with Pakistan Air Force.

Project ROSE - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pakistan bought 50 Mirage III back in 1991 and I think some of them could remain in service until they are replaced by the J-17 around 2030.

Pakistan hoovered up Mirage IIIs & Vs from around the world (Australia, France, Libya) as they were retired, either stripping them for spares or thoroughly overhauling & updating them, depending on condition. I think that the PAF has the ultimate grandfather's axe fighter fleet. The airframe numbers of some of its current Mirages must be rather arbitrary.

 

[John Newman]

Pakistan hoovered up Mirage IIIs & Vs from around the world (Australia, France, Libya) as they were retired, either stripping them for spares or thoroughly overhauling & updating them, depending on condition. I think that the PAF has the ultimate grandfather's axe fighter fleet. The airframe numbers of some of its current Mirages must be rather arbitrary.

Actually the history of RAAF Mirage IIIs service life (and individual airframes) is very well documented:

In RAAF service:

ADF Serials - Mirage III

In PAF service:

ADF Serials - Mirage III

50 complete aircraft exported by sea, (48 from Whyalla, South Australia and 2 from Geelong, Victoria)

40 single seat Mirage IIIO stored at Woomera
A3-2, -5, -6, -9, -10, -11, -12, -15, -17, -19, -21, -22, -23, -24, -25, -27, -31, -33, -34, -35,
-38, -39, -49, -53, -54, -56, -60, -62, -65, -68, -71, -73, -81, -83, -86, -87, -88, -93, -96, -99

8 dual seat Mirage IIID stored at Woomera
A3-101, -103, -104, -108, -110, -111, -112, -113. 7 into service, 1 used for spares.

Plus 2 complete single seat Mirage IIIO taken from RAAF Museum Point Cook A3-13, -84 were moved by road and then shipped by sea from Geelong, Victoria.

32 eventually upgraded to ROSE 1 standard, 1 crashed prior to ROSE 1 upgrade. 4 Photo Recon. conversions, 5 used for spares.

Also 5 incomplete aircraft/fuselages; A3-7 (Darwin), -48, -78 (Dubbo), -57, -91 (Orchard Hills).

It would appear that many are still in frontline service with the PAF.


I think it's pretty bloody impressive to note that the last three generations of RAAF frontline combat jets have all found a second life with other air forces: Sabre, Mirage and now Hornet, will the same happen with F-35A in 30ish years from now??

And I also think it's a big pat on the back to RAAF to have operated and maintained those three aircraft types (during their original service life) to such a high standard, that they have managed to carry on so well into their second lives too!

Cheers,

 

[John Newman]

Looks like Northrop have made an offer directly to Australia, Northrop offers Triton drones to Australia, as US budget request pauses orders, possibly one that the CoA may find tempting.

Yes I saw that article on the DefenseNews website the other day, it would appear that Northrop Grumman is trying to have an each way bet on the future of Triton, certainly appears a lot of issues for the Aus Govt to weigh up.

NG is reportedly offering the RAAF the USNs production slots at a discount (wonder how much?) and also increasing the size of the production lot, the article also suggests that the RAAF delivery schedule timeframe will be the same (one would assume that the airframes will go into storage until delivery too?).

My understanding is that the current Triton configuration is known as IFC3, but the RAAF baseline requirement is IFC4 (which includes all of the enhancements noted in ADBR article below):

RAAF Triton program at risk? – ADBR

I would imagine that the Govt will not only be having discussions with NG, but also the USN and the US Govt too.

Glass half empty? Glass half full? Time will tell.

Cheers,