Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Yes I read Pt 2 this morning too, be interesting to see what Marcus Hellyer has to say in Pt 3.

But the point you make about geography is correct, it is a two-way street, a long distance for one side is equally a long distance for the other side too.

What the article has ignored to this point (and we wait and see what's in Pt 3), is the potential availability of friendly air bases to our north (I won't list all the possibilities), I'd like to see a map with a radius circle around all those northern friendly bases (no doubt the DoD has such maps).

The other matter not mentioned so far (and again we await Pt 3), is precision long range weapons that are available for the F-35A and Super Hornet too (yes they may not be integrated as at today), but weapons such as JSM, JASSM, JASSM-ER, LRASM, etc.

JSM reportedly has a range of up to 560km, JASSM up to 370km, JASSM-ER 925+km and LRASM 560km.

To put that into perspective, the often used comparison was against the F-111C, which reportedly had a combat radius of 2,140km, but of course during the service life of the Pig those very long range weapons were not available to them, the AGM-142 reportedly had a range of 78km, and for maritime strike were earlier versions of Harpoon, range numbers vary, but I have seen figures suggesting a max of approx. 100 miles (160km).

So whilst the Pig had a great combat radius (and no RAAF tanker with a boom support), it had to get pretty close to a target, especially a land based target before weapons release, which of course increases the risk to the crew and aircraft.

Yes the Lightning II is not the Pig (in terms of combat radius for the airframe), but the Pig didn't have the organic force multipliers that are available to the Lightning II either.

Glass half empty? glass half full? Depends on how you look at it....

Cheers,
One of the issues with the F-111C was that while it had a tremendous combat radius on paper, in the later years of service the realistic combat radius was about equal to the SHornets with standoff munitions can achieve now. A major part of the problem being that the potential threat enviros that the F-111C would have to either ingress or cross would require a fighter escort to deal with potential hostile air which F-111's armed with Sidewinder WVR missiles could no longer deal with. This in turn largely capped the F-111's combat radius to the combat radius of the Classic Hornet's in RAAF service loaded for strike escort roles.

With the SHornet, and even more so for the F-35A, the aircraft have the ability to self-escort, plus smaller RCS, and then even more and more overall capable standoff munitions.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I know the mods don't like one liners, but once you have force multipliers the glass is always refillable!
rb
To a point a glass is always refillable. Quantity has a quality of its own too, and I suggest that to look at the logistics of an a2a refuelling combat mission plan over an oceanic area, OP BLACK BUCK is an ideal exemplar. OP BLACK BUCK was the RAF Vulcan raids on the runway at Port Stanley during the Falklands War. These raids launched from Ascension Island with a distance of 3,800 miles to the target and no friendly airfields in between. The image below is the refuelling plan for the missions.



Whilst this OP is over a large distance, it is not dissimilar to the total distance for B-29 raids on Tokyo from bases on Saipan and Tinian (~3,500 miles). So my question to you is, how many force multipliers do you think that the RAAF need to support one strike package of 4 F-35 at 1,000 nm distance from friendly airfields? The opposition is a PLAN CBG with a CATOBAR CVN.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
PS, As matter of interest, what do you believe are the better things we can do with that money?
I'm looking at what else the Joint Force needs to do and thinking that the current fleet of P-8s gives us enough for what we do now (if we use them appropriately) and while the extra's make life easier for the P-8 fleet, the missed opportunities are probably greater. Noting #13 - 15 don't actually give us anything new or improved and are effectively continuing a 2015 Joint Force for the next 15 years.

So what would I do? (Disclaimer: I know 3x P-8s cannot fund all the below, bu they could provide seed money, or enough to make them feasible)

Starting just in the maritime domain, there are a few holes I would like to see filled. Being an island, our greatest geographical strength is also our greatest weakness - we rely on the sea, sea lanes and sea transport. To that end, I'd like to boost our persistent surveillance capabilities. P-8's are fine if you know there is a sub or ship there, but are bad at persistent surveillance. So I'd be looking at uncrewed, long-range underwater vehicles, SURTASS ships and a SOSUS network. @SteveR offers a possible part of that solution above. The latter is probably of significant diplomatic use, especially at aiding our near neighbours. Why can't there be a G-I-UK gap in SE Asia between Australia, Indonesia, Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia and / or the Philippines? An interlaced, persistent surveillance of our northern approaches from roughly Broome around to Gladstone that reinforces JORN would provide a potent means of directing our MQ-4s and P-8s appropriately, or naval task groups. And - speaking realpolitik wise - supports government efforts around border security

There are opportunities in our mine hunting capability too. It's been ignored by big navy for so long that it's arguable we have a resilient one anymore. I also find it interesting that reports out of some of our allies indicate that modular minehunters don't work, and uncrewed options - while showing promise - don't provide sufficient probability of clearance levels. On top of all this, there are plenty of leftover mines from the 1940s across SE and mid-Asia. Op RENDER SAFE is a significant operations for upholding Australian reputation in these areas, and the MHCs are contributors to that. This ignores all the, often essential and unique, capabilities the hydro offshoot brings regionally. Finally, with only a handful of key ports capable of taking the cargo we need, we need a means of ensuring approaches are kept safe and clear. I'd be looking at replacing our Huon class with another, dedicated and bigger, MHC fleet (not an OPV hull) with uncrewed options that can be run off OPVs to reinforce the MHC work.

Navy workforce....

Long range strike may be an option, noting of course that there are existing projects for such options in ASuW and land operations. But funding more rapid acquisition so that our MFU don't rely on AGM-84 could be useful.

Purchasing actual warstocks of ammunition....

Our sealift, while dramatically better than Timor in 1999, is still insufficient for what Army needs. At the moment we can lift a couple of battlegroups if all three amphib ships are available, with some....limited...ship-to-shore connectors. There has also been some work done by the Sea Power Centre recently that highlights there is no civilian shipping you can "just hire" for contingencies (like many in white and green think). It's all tapped out. So I'd look at investing in a standing contract that can move the rest of the Brigade in one lift and additional ship-to-shore connectors so that we can land more forces on the beach simultaneously.

That's a handful of way's I'd be looking at reinvesting money from 3 extra P-8s into the maritime domain that I think give the Joint Force more than just another 3 P-8s. Beyond that, I'd be looking at:
- AI / machine learning integration
- improved intelligence / PED linkages (focusing on the transfer and analysis of data, not more sensors)
- improved strategic logistics resilience (maybe bringing our logistics chains up to a 1990s standard...)
- pushing our uncrewed platforms that actually contribute in a meaningful way (so not Black Hornet and the like, but brethren of current major platforms to enable the ADF to generate mass better)

That's a quick cut. TLDR - I'd reinvest in ways that improve the Joint Force of 2029, not the Joint Force of 2015

MODERATOR EDIT: This post has been copied to the ADF thread because it is wide ranging and informative, worthy of discussion there without derailing this thread. NG.
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
Yes I read Pt 2 this morning too, be interesting to see what Marcus Hellyer has to say in Pt 3.

But the point you make about geography is correct, it is a two-way street, a long distance for one side is equally a long distance for the other side too.

What the article has ignored to this point (and we wait and see what's in Pt 3), is the potential availability of friendly air bases to our north (I won't list all the possibilities), I'd like to see a map with a radius circle around all those northern friendly bases (no doubt the DoD has such maps).

The other matter not mentioned so far (and again we await Pt 3), is precision long range weapons that are available for the F-35A and Super Hornet too (yes they may not be integrated as at today), but weapons such as JSM, JASSM, JASSM-ER, LRASM, etc.

JSM reportedly has a range of up to 560km, JASSM up to 370km, JASSM-ER 925+km and LRASM 560km.

To put that into perspective, the often used comparison was against the F-111C, which reportedly had a combat radius of 2,140km, but of course during the service life of the Pig those very long range weapons were not available to them, the AGM-142 reportedly had a range of 78km, and for maritime strike were earlier versions of Harpoon, range numbers vary, but I have seen figures suggesting a max of approx. 100 miles (160km).

So whilst the Pig had a great combat radius (and no RAAF tanker with a boom support), it had to get pretty close to a target, especially a land based target before weapons release, which of course increases the risk to the crew and aircraft.

Yes the Lightning II is not the Pig (in terms of combat radius for the airframe), but the Pig didn't have the organic force multipliers that are available to the Lightning II either.

Glass half empty? glass half full? Depends on how you look at it....

Cheers,

Something that stands out for me is the massive quantities of fuel required to conduct "business" at distance.
For our northern Australian air bases, how many have the required infrastructure and fuel reserves to provide the type of support for the range of long range operations we are currently discussing.
I'm not sure our three bare bone bases truly have this capability without some additional capital investment.
If proximity equals availability in a particular geography, then foreign bases have merit.
But again we have the challenge of them being up to the task in infrastructure to conduct operations and also the added challenge of RAAF access.
The political domain is fraught with uncertainty and this will affect availability.
At the end of the day Air power is a hungry animal.
To be glass half full, just as we have challenges in projecting Air power because of our large geography, there is some comfort that this also is a reciprocal challenge to any adversary.
Sometimes being on a big Island surrounded by many miles of ocean has it's advantages and sometimes we also need to remember the past.
Darwin in 1942............................Land and Sea based Air power!


Regards S
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
I'm looking at what else the Joint Force needs to do and thinking that the current fleet of P-8s gives us enough for what we do now (if we use them appropriately) and while the extra's make life easier for the P-8 fleet, the missed opportunities are probably greater. Noting #13 - 15 don't actually give us anything new or improved and are effectively continuing a 2015 Joint Force for the next 15 years.
.....
That's a quick cut. TLDR - I'd reinvest in ways that improve the Joint Force of 2029, not the Joint Force of 2015
Mate, thanks for your reply to my question, a broad ranging reply too, I was going to say that it is too broad for the RAAF Thread and should probably end up in the ADF Thread, but I see that Todj has already done that.

A lot to mull over.

Cheers,
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Something that stands out for me is the massive quantities of fuel required to conduct "business" at distance.
For our northern Australian air bases, how many have the required infrastructure and fuel reserves to provide the type of support for the range of long range operations we are currently discussing.
I'm not sure our three bare bone bases truly have this capability without some additional capital investment.
If proximity equals availability in a particular geography, then foreign bases have merit.
But again we have the challenge of them being up to the task in infrastructure to conduct operations and also the added challenge of RAAF access.
The political domain is fraught with uncertainty and this will affect availability.
At the end of the day Air power is a hungry animal.
To be glass half full, just as we have challenges in projecting Air power because of our large geography, there is some comfort that this also is a reciprocal challenge to any adversary.
Sometimes being on a big Island surrounded by many miles of ocean has it's advantages and sometimes we also need to remember the past.
Darwin in 1942............................Land and Sea based Air power!


Regards S
I agree, long ranging capabilities for the RAAF, with 'fighter' sized aircraft, does have the challenges you've spelt out.

If we go from today and back to World War II, the RAAF had maintained and operated two main types of combat aircraft, shorter ranging aircraft such as F/A-18A/B, Mirage IIIs, Sabre, Meteor, Mustang, Spitfire, Kittyhawk, etc.

Longer ranging strike or bomber aircraft such as F-111C, Canberra, Lincoln, Liberator (which had a shorter service life than it probably deserved). In the UK as part of Bomber Command, Lancaster, Wellington, Halifax, etc.

In the past there were options for both steams/types of aircraft, but today there isn't.

Had the USAF been able (or wanted?) to procure a more 'direct' replacement for the F-111, something with a 2000+km combat radius, then it may well have been something that the RAAF/Australian Government was interested in, but it didn't happen.

As it stands today you have F-35, F-15, F-16, F/A-18, plus Euro, etc at one end of the spectrum and way way down at the other end is the aging B-52, B-1, B-2 and just around the corner is B-21, there is nothing in the 'middle'.

So it is a bit of a 'Catch 22' for the RAAF/Oz Government, no more medium/mid range strike aircraft, only short range with required tankers, longer ranging precision weapons, etc.

But what if? .......

Now for most of you that know me, I've been around here on DT for eight and a half years (with 1600 posts), I usually don't go off into la la land, I usually stick to a more conservative what is reasonable approach within budgets, etc.

But maybe it's time for the Oz Government to think 'big', especially in regard to our friends(?) to the North (yes, China).

With China's reach growing and extending further and further each year, maybe it is time to review how big our stick actually is, maybe we need a longer stick, a stick with a sting (after all China is developing their long range bomber, the H-20).

Maybe a dozen RAAF B-21 armed with long range weapons such as JASSM-ER and LRASM is not such a silly idea.

Anyway, it's either stick with F-35 type aircraft (and provide them with AAR and long range weapons), or go the whole hog (with respect to the Pig) and seriously look at B-21.

Far fetched? Maybe, but who knows......

Cheers,

(PS, Darwin to Shanghai is 4,957km as a matter of interest too.)
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I agree, long ranging capabilities for the RAAF, with 'fighter' sized aircraft, does have the challenges you've spelt out.

If we go from today and back to World War II, the RAAF had maintained and operated two main types of combat aircraft, shorter ranging aircraft such as F/A-18A/B, Mirage IIIs, Sabre, Meteor, Mustang, Spitfire, Kittyhawk, etc.

Longer ranging strike or bomber aircraft such as F-111C, Canberra, Lincoln, Liberator (which had a shorter service life than it probably deserved). In the UK as part of Bomber Command, Lancaster, Wellington, Halifax, etc.

In the past there were options for both steams/types of aircraft, but today there isn't.

Had the USAF been able (or wanted?) to procure a more 'direct' replacement for the F-111, something with a 2000+km combat radius, then it may well have been something that the RAAF/Australian Government was interested in, but it didn't happen.

As it stands today you have F-35, F-15, F-16, F/A-18, plus Euro, etc at one end of the spectrum and way way down at the other end is the aging B-52, B-1, B-2 and just around the corner is B-21, there is nothing in the 'middle'.

So it is a bit of a 'Catch 22' for the RAAF/Oz Government, no more medium/mid range strike aircraft, only short range with required tankers, longer ranging precision weapons, etc.

But what if? .......

Now for most of you that know me, I've been around here on DT for eight and a half years (with 1600 posts), I usually don't go off into la la land, I usually stick to a more conservative what is reasonable approach within budgets, etc.

But maybe it's time for the Oz Government to think 'big', especially in regard to our friends(?) to the North (yes, China).

With China's reach growing and extending further and further each year, maybe it is time to review how big our stick actually is, maybe we need a longer stick, a stick with a sting (after all China is developing their long range bomber, the H-20).

Maybe a dozen RAAF B-21 armed with long range weapons such as JASSM-ER and LRASM is not such a silly idea.

Anyway, it's either stick with F-35 type aircraft (and provide them with AAR and long range weapons), or go the whole hog (with respect to the Pig) and seriously look at B-21.

Far fetched? Maybe, but who knows......

Cheers,

(PS, Darwin to Shanghai is 4,957 km as a matter of interest too.)
John, the F-15 has lot longer legs and weapons carriage capability than the F-18, 1,200 nm and 29,500 lb. The F-18 Super Hornet has a range of 510 nm and a max weapons load out weight of 17,750 lb. Therefore, my suggestion would be to replace 18 Shornets with 18 advanced F-15 two seaters. If the CoA balked at acquiring F-15s because of sticker price when they replaced the Mirages, think of the cost of the B-21. The B-2 will be cheap in comparison. Also, with some reality, the US has never exported the B-52, B-1 or B-2 so the chances of approving the B-21 for export are next about as much as Australia agreeing to become a territory of NZ.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Just to float another option: I can see this problem being solved in due course by PCA/NGAD. I'd bet the U.S will be putting a premium on a long legged aircraft that can operate independently of AAR support for its first foray(s) into 6th gen aircraft. Granted, it's probably a while away but I suspect it's on its way.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
I agree, long ranging capabilities for the RAAF, with 'fighter' sized aircraft, does have the challenges you've spelt out.

If we go from today and back to World War II, the RAAF had maintained and operated two main types of combat aircraft, shorter ranging aircraft such as F/A-18A/B, Mirage IIIs, Sabre, Meteor, Mustang, Spitfire, Kittyhawk, etc.

Longer ranging strike or bomber aircraft such as F-111C, Canberra, Lincoln, Liberator (which had a shorter service life than it probably deserved). In the UK as part of Bomber Command, Lancaster, Wellington, Halifax, etc.

In the past there were options for both steams/types of aircraft, but today there isn't.

Had the USAF been able (or wanted?) to procure a more 'direct' replacement for the F-111, something with a 2000+km combat radius, then it may well have been something that the RAAF/Australian Government was interested in, but it didn't happen.

As it stands today you have F-35, F-15, F-16, F/A-18, plus Euro, etc at one end of the spectrum and way way down at the other end is the aging B-52, B-1, B-2 and just around the corner is B-21, there is nothing in the 'middle'.

So it is a bit of a 'Catch 22' for the RAAF/Oz Government, no more medium/mid range strike aircraft, only short range with required tankers, longer ranging precision weapons, etc.

But what if? .......

Now for most of you that know me, I've been around here on DT for eight and a half years (with 1600 posts), I usually don't go off into la la land, I usually stick to a more conservative what is reasonable approach within budgets, etc.

But maybe it's time for the Oz Government to think 'big', especially in regard to our friends(?) to the North (yes, China).

With China's reach growing and extending further and further each year, maybe it is time to review how big our stick actually is, maybe we need a longer stick, a stick with a sting (after all China is developing their long range bomber, the H-20).

Maybe a dozen RAAF B-21 armed with long range weapons such as JASSM-ER and LRASM is not such a silly idea.

Anyway, it's either stick with F-35 type aircraft (and provide them with AAR and long range weapons), or go the whole hog (with respect to the Pig) and seriously look at B-21.

Far fetched? Maybe, but who knows......

Cheers,

(PS, Darwin to Shanghai is 4,957km as a matter of interest too.)
The cost is simply not feasible. Even assuming half the cost of a B-2; how would we afford it? You are talking ~$15 billion just to purchase the Squadron - before weapons or sustainment is considered. And for what? A subsonic, crewed platform that still relies on KC-30s, upsets the strategic situation (I doubt China or Russia would see them as separate to the USAF B-21 fleet - especially if we don't clearly de-nuke them) and relies on a handful of easily targeted sites. If you want to keep them undercover, add ~ $750 m - $1 b for each base they will operate at.

Long range strike is admirable, and needed. But the answer isn't the B-21. It's also, and I admit, arguably, not operationally or strategically feasible. Long-range ADF strike should be uncrewed options - child-of-JASSM, child-of-Tomahawk or child-of-KEPD 350. Options that can be carried inside F-35s / trucks / major fleet units but operate beyond the protection bubble of the target. Even better, if they can operate in other roles - anti-shipping or land attack. Now the JTF Comd has options - they can respond to a rapidly changing tactical situation easier.
 

hairyman

Active Member
Maybe we should take a look at what the Europeans are doing to replace their Tornado aircraft. America is not the only place that manufactures aircraft.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Maybe we should take a look at what the Europeans are doing to replace their Tornado aircraft. America is not the only place that manufactures aircraft.
At present it looks like the Typhoon, and Australian hasn't had the happiest of experiences with European aircraft OEMS, so would be somewhat reluctant to head down that path.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
I guess it also comes down to timing. The next window to introduce a new aircraft type to the fleet would be replacing the Rhinos. I don't know that Tempest or FCAS will bear fruit in time.

That said the work being done on variable bypass engines in the US does sound promising. Assuming all goes well, re-engining our F35s with something like XA100 with its promised ~40% range increase over F135 could also be a big help.
 
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seaspear

Well-Known Member
GE Aviation’s future fighter engine TECHNOLOGY XA100 [FOUR PAGE PDF of Article attached below]
April 2019 Chris Kjelgaard
GE completes design process for adaptive engine
The above articles on the XA100 have difffering claims on the improvements of this engine , possibly any improvement in thermal heat management of the engine may make it less detectable to sensors using infrared ,could also this type of engine be considered for the S/H.


MOD EDIT: I've added the link to the pdf file mentioned above. I've also decided not insert the link to where Seaspear has found the story because I believe it may contravene forum rules. He did well not to include the link. Another Mod may have a different opinion, this is just my interpretation of the particular rule.

Ngatimozart.
 
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Boagrius

Well-Known Member
GE Aviation’s future fighter engine TECHNOLOGY XA100 [FOUR PAGE PDF of Article attached below]
April 2019 Chris Kjelgaard
GE completes design process for adaptive engine
The above articles on the XA100 have difffering claims on the improvements of this engine , possibly any improvement in thermal heat management of the engine may make it less detectable to sensors using infrared ,could also this type of engine be considered for the S/H
I think it would be too big for the SH. Trend in the US has been to look at it as an F135 replacement before adaptation for use in B21 and PCA/NGAD.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think it would be too big for the SH. Trend in the US has been to look at it as an F135 replacement before adaptation for use in B21 and PCA/NGAD.
GE Aviation’s future fighter engine TECHNOLOGY XA100 [FOUR PAGE PDF of Article attached below]
April 2019 Chris Kjelgaard
GE completes design process for adaptive engine
The above articles on the XA100 have difffering claims on the improvements of this engine , possibly any improvement in thermal heat management of the engine may make it less detectable to sensors using infrared ,could also this type of engine be considered for the S/H.


MOD EDIT: I've added the link to the pdf file mentioned above. I've also decided not insert the link to where Seaspear has found the story because I believe it may contravene forum rules. He did well not to include the link. Another Mod may have a different opinion, this is just my interpretation of the particular rule.

Ngatimozart.
By the time the engine is prototyped, accepted by the USAF, gone into LRIP, the FRP, the Shornets will probably be close to their end of service with the RAAF. It would make more sense to look at it as a possible upgrade engine for the F-35.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
By the time the engine is prototyped, accepted by the USAF, gone into LRIP, the FRP, the Shornets will probably be close to their end of service with the RAAF. It would make more sense to look at it as a possible upgrade engine for the F-35.
It will be an interesting time for sure, because while various 6th gen offerings might be an option, the F35 is going to be a much more mature and low risk aircraft by then. Various enhancements not just to range and propulsion but also to sensors, EW and data sharing capability are likely to be on the table. An additional tranche of decked-out Lightnings could be compelling in that timeframe.
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
I agree, long ranging capabilities for the RAAF, with 'fighter' sized aircraft, does have the challenges you've spelt out.

If we go from today and back to World War II, the RAAF had maintained and operated two main types of combat aircraft, shorter ranging aircraft such as F/A-18A/B, Mirage IIIs, Sabre, Meteor, Mustang, Spitfire, Kittyhawk, etc.

Longer ranging strike or bomber aircraft such as F-111C, Canberra, Lincoln, Liberator (which had a shorter service life than it probably deserved). In the UK as part of Bomber Command, Lancaster, Wellington, Halifax, etc.

In the past there were options for both steams/types of aircraft, but today there isn't.

Had the USAF been able (or wanted?) to procure a more 'direct' replacement for the F-111, something with a 2000+km combat radius, then it may well have been something that the RAAF/Australian Government was interested in, but it didn't happen.

As it stands today you have F-35, F-15, F-16, F/A-18, plus Euro, etc at one end of the spectrum and way way down at the other end is the aging B-52, B-1, B-2 and just around the corner is B-21, there is nothing in the 'middle'.

So it is a bit of a 'Catch 22' for the RAAF/Oz Government, no more medium/mid range strike aircraft, only short range with required tankers, longer ranging precision weapons, etc.

But what if? .......

Now for most of you that know me, I've been around here on DT for eight and a half years (with 1600 posts), I usually don't go off into la la land, I usually stick to a more conservative what is reasonable approach within budgets, etc.

But maybe it's time for the Oz Government to think 'big', especially in regard to our friends(?) to the North (yes, China).

With China's reach growing and extending further and further each year, maybe it is time to review how big our stick actually is, maybe we need a longer stick, a stick with a sting (after all China is developing their long range bomber, the H-20).

Maybe a dozen RAAF B-21 armed with long range weapons such as JASSM-ER and LRASM is not such a silly idea.

Anyway, it's either stick with F-35 type aircraft (and provide them with AAR and long range weapons), or go the whole hog (with respect to the Pig) and seriously look at B-21.

Far fetched? Maybe, but who knows......

Cheers,

(PS, Darwin to Shanghai is 4,957km as a matter of interest too.)

Something to explore is the in service P-8
It may not be a stealthy strike bomber or a long range unmanned aircraft; but it is in service and has potential as a bomb truck in certain applications.
Long range with internal and external hard points as standard. Add to the mix long range stand off weapons and you have some significant long range "influence"
Something to look at beyond the traditional maritime role.
Limitations yes, but glass half full defiantly worth a look

Regards S
 

pussertas

Active Member
Back when the F111 suffered long delays the RAAF leased Phantoms

What would be the outcome if the RAAF approched the USAF for a lease of a squadron of B1's?

The leased aircraft would be the group due of an upgrade. The B1's would be 'rolled over' airframe by airframe with the oldest going back to the USA for upgrading.

That way the RAAF would have a Squadron of heavy bombers without the cost of purchase. They would pay all the running costs,

Possible???
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Back when the F111 suffered long delays the RAAF leased Phantoms

What would be the outcome if the RAAF approched the USAF for a lease of a squadron of B1's?

The leased aircraft would be the group due of an upgrade. The B1's would be 'rolled over' airframe by airframe with the oldest going back to the USA for upgrading.

That way the RAAF would have a Squadron of heavy bombers without the cost of purchase. They would pay all the running costs,

Possible???
Don't think so because the B-1A back then was still on the drawing board and it's first flight wasn't until late 1974. The F-4 Phantoms were leased from 1970 - until the F-111's were delivered in 1973. ADF Serials - Series 3 - 1961 Onwards
 
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