Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Will helicopters or manned aircraft still be the best option for armed reconnaissance circa 2025?

This is around the same period that the Airforce will be looking at acquiring Reapers or some other type of UCAV. You could have an armed drone loitering over a battlefield 24/7 at a fraction of the operating cost of a manned aircraft.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Will helicopters or manned aircraft still be the best option for armed reconnaissance circa 2025?

This is around the same period that the Airforce will be looking at acquiring Reapers or some other type of UCAV. You could have an armed drone loitering over a battlefield 24/7 at a fraction of the operating cost of a manned aircraft.
That is why they have worded the DWP to allow for an all unmanned fleet or a mix or unmanned/manned.

For the recon asset it could probably work really well but for the gun ship type role I'd imagine manned would be better. Hence a likely split.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
That is why they have worded the DWP to allow for an all unmanned fleet or a mix or unmanned/manned.

For the recon asset it could probably work really well but for the gun ship type role I'd imagine manned would be better. Hence a likely split.
Well that is the trick isn't it ... deciding on the right mix. I think manned helicopters will still have a role to play. Apaches can already use data feeds direct from drones to locate targets.

On the other hand you have something like the Boeing AH-6 Little Bird ... which could be a good option for Australia. You could even fly them off the LHDs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-6
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
I would have thought the AH64E/Gray Eagle/Reaper combo makes a lot of sense in the ~medium term, especially when viewed in the context of Plan Jericho. The ADF's net-centric doctrine strikes me as likely to dictate a set of platforms that can seamlessly contribute to and be a part of the broader operating picture into the future.

As GF would say, they will likely need to be adequately "eared up and geared up" to get a look in. The above 3 seem to have been well tailored to operate that way...
 
Last edited:

the road runner

Active Member
The RAAF has qualified Reaper pilots and ground crews on exchange with the USAF 432d operations group..They have been flying operations in Syria and Iraq since August of 2015..

The RAAF would have a great understanding of Reaper ops with this exchange group.. I would think a Reaper purchase could be on the cards in the not to distant future
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
A$500 Million for Enhanced Satellite Capability

The Turnbull Government has announced a $500 million investment to improve Australia’s space-based intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance capabilities, to support ADF operations around the world and at home to secure our borders.

Minister for Defence Industry, the Hon Christopher Pyne MP and Minister for Defence, Senator the Hon Marise Payne today committed $500 million to improve Defence’s access to commercial satellites to provide information to government agencies.
Not strictly an RAAF matter, but thought it may be of interest on the sunny side of the Tasman. Apologies if someone has already posted a link.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Something interesting for the RAAF.

Back in 2015 we ordered 2 G550 ISR aircraft however it appears we may be getting up to 5 more with on top of the ISR capability also having an EW capability.

Australia To Receive $1.3 Billion Gulfstream G550 ISR, EW Mission Systems Aircraft From US

Wonder if we will upgrade the other 2 with EW capabilities.
Here's the link from the DSCA website:

http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sale...0-aircraft-airborne-intelligence-surveillance

And no it's not two (2) plus five (5) more, originally two were announced, and then in the 2016 DWP and DIIP it mentioned a total of five in two tranches.

The text of the DSCA announcement is below:


WASHINGTON, Jun. 26, 2017 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Australia for Gulfstream G550 Aircraft with Airborne Intelligence, Surveillance, Reconnaissance, and Electronic Warfare (AISREW) mission systems. The estimated cost is $1.3 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on June 23, 2017.

The Government of Australia requested the possible sale of up to five (5) Gulfstream G-550 aircraft modified to integrate Airborne Intelligence, Surveillance, Reconnaissance, and Electronic Warfare (AISREW) mission systems, Global Positioning System (GPS) capability, secure communications, aircraft defensive systems; spares, including whole life costs of airborne and ground segments; aircraft modification and integration; ground systems for data processing and crew training; ground support equipment; publications and technical data; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services; flight test and certification; and other related elements of logistical and program support. The total estimated program cost is $1.3 billion.

This sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a major contributor to political stability, security, and economic development in the Western Pacific. Australia is an important Major non-NATO Ally and partner that contributes significantly to peacekeeping and humanitarian operations around the world. It is vital to the U.S. national interest to assist our ally in developing and maintaining a strong and ready self-defense capability.

The proposed sale supports and complements the ongoing efforts of Australia to modernize its Electronic Warfare capability and increases interoperability between the U.S. Air Force and the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF). Australia will have no difficulty absorbing this equipment into its armed forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment does not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The prime contractors will be L3 of Greenville, TX. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.

Implementation of this proposed sale may require the assignment of up to six (6) U.S. contractor representatives to Australia.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.

All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, [email protected]
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Thanks John that makes things a bit clearer. It's not a definate order, just the legal req of notifying Congress. Considering the amount of secrecy surrounding this project the 1st the public knows of a definate order could be a picture of one at Edinburgh(i think that is where they will be stationed considering they are replacing the Special Orions).
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Thanks John that makes things a bit clearer. It's not a definate order, just the legal req of notifying Congress. Considering the amount of secrecy surrounding this project the 1st the public knows of a definate order could be a picture of one at Edinburgh(i think that is where they will be stationed considering they are replacing the Special Orions).
Yes I do realise that a notification on the DSCA website does not automatically equate to an order, but I think it is pretty clear that this is going to happen.

Have a read this section from the 2016 DIIP:

Long-range electronic warfare support
1.20 From the early 2020s, Defence will acquire up to five long-range electronic warfare support aircraft based on the Gulfstream G550 airframe with additional and modified systems. This capability will substantially enhance electronic warfare support to naval, air and land forces for operations in electromagnetic environments manipulated by hostile forces, with the operating cost, range and endurance benefits of a commercial airframe. The aircraft will be acquired in two tranches and incrementally upgraded to maintain commonality with the United States-developed systems for long-term supportability and to maintain interoperability.

The project has a budget allowance of $2b-$3b, with a date range of 2017-2024.

I have always read that as two airframes sooner and up to an additional three a bit later, eventually making a fleet of five airframes.
 

SteveR

Active Member
Defense News article on this indicated that we got the G-550's approved for FMS, but India get's offered the last white-tail C-17 that was being sought both by Australia and Qatar as well - because India had a greater need for disaster relief than us:

India, Australia net big FMS offers

The disaster relief point is made here:

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/india-purchase-additional-c-17-transport-aircraft/

And Australian and Qatari interest in the final C-17 is mentioned here:

http://www.janes.com/article/71793/india-to-receive-final-white-tail-c-17

Maybe both were announced at same time so it appears we get something as compensation.
 
Last edited:

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I suspect that at some stage we'll have a crack at getting hold of USAF C17's that have been condomed....
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
I suspect that at some stage we'll have a crack at getting hold of USAF C17's that have been condomed....
What is the anticipated requirement for extra C-17s over and above those that we already have in the RAAF?
They must be proving to be of high value in use
MB
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
What is the anticipated requirement for extra C-17s over and above those that we already have in the RAAF?
They must be proving to be of high value in use
MB
they get a flogging. the hour meters would be heading north pretty rapidly
 

koala

Member
Looking like our AP-3C's are getting a flogging until there death, without a graceful retirement.

Things seem to be getting out of control in the Phillo's

RE:-

Australian Defence Force Assistance to the Philippines

23 June 2017

The Australian Government is working with the Government of the Philippines to support the fight against terrorism in our region.

Minister for Defence Senator the Hon Marise Payne said the Government of the Philippines has accepted an Australian offer of two Australian Defence Force AP-3C Orion aircraft to provide surveillance support to the Armed Forces of the Philippines.
Australia condemns the attacks by Daesh inspired groups in Marawi City – located in north-west Mindanao of the Philippines.
“The regional threat from terrorism, in particular from Daesh and foreign fighters, is a direct threat to Australia and our interests. Australia will continue to work with our partners in South East Asia to counter it,” Minister Payne said.
“I recently spoke with my counterpart Secretary of Defense Delfin Lorenzana about how Australia can assist the Philippines in its fight against extremists. We agreed the best way to defeat terrorism in our region is for us to work together.”
Australia has an extensive Defence Cooperation Program with the Philippines, which includes counter terrorism cooperation.

https://www.minister.defence.gov.au...stralian-defence-force-assistance-philippines
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
they get a flogging. the hour meters would be heading north pretty rapidly
Looks like we missed out on our chance to pick up the final whitetail C-17 as well. The last one was cleared for sale to India.

Of course the way India procrastinate about these things the deal may yet fall through.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
It was fortunate Boeing built the whitetail C-17s. The UK, Australia, and Canada all took advantage and added to their fleets. I think the latter two and India would like to add some more. Had these users moved more quickly, Boeing wouldn't have had to flog them off to UAE and Qatar. Building 2 more whitetails would very well have found a home in NZ.
 
Top