Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

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hauritz

Well-Known Member
I honestly can't see them getting rid of the Growler anytime soon.

It has a niche role. The RAAF has stated that this aircraft will probably spend more time operating with sea and ground forces than it will with the F-35.

Mind you if it stays you would think that they might want to hang onto at least a few of the superhornets. They would be useful as training aircraft, parts ... twelve of them have even been wired as growlers.
 
Boagrius

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
hauritz said:
I honestly can't see them getting rid of the Growler anytime soon.

It has a niche role. The RAAF has stated that this aircraft will probably spend more time operating with sea and ground forces than it will with the F-35.

Mind you if it stays you would think that they might want to hang onto at least a few of the superhornets. They would be useful as training aircraft, parts ... twelve of them have even been wired as growlers.
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Indeed - especially not when you consider our interest to date in NGJ and our stated intent to remain in lock-step with the USN in this area. If the SH's exit stage left circa ~2025 it just makes me wonder whether we will replace them with another squadron's worth of F35s. Not content to hang around for F/A(XX) I guess?
 
V

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
I have a feeling that they have misrepresented what the RAAF will have rather then being the first all 5th generation air force will rather be the first air force with 5th gen aircraft across all key sectors (Combat, AEW&C, ISR, Maritime Patrol etc).
 
H

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Boagrius said:
Indeed - especially not when you consider our interest to date in NGJ and our stated intent to remain in lock-step with the USN in this area. If the SH's exit stage left circa ~2025 it just makes me wonder whether we will replace them with another squadron's worth of F35s. Not content to hang around for F/A(XX) I guess?
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Can't help but feel that the F/A(XX) is still a long way off. It is still well and truly in the concept stage.

The USN is already looking at extending the lives of its Super Hornets out to 9000 flying hours so it isn't looking at replacing them anytime soon.
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Boagrius said:
Indeed - especially not when you consider our interest to date in NGJ and our stated intent to remain in lock-step with the USN in this area. If the SH's exit stage left circa ~2025 it just makes me wonder whether we will replace them with another squadron's worth of F35s. Not content to hang around for F/A(XX) I guess?
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its not just an aspirational interest, I can tell you from first hand experience that any FMS artefact that is not maintained within 2 releases of their US baseline becomes literally impossible to maintain - there are a number of reasons for this which can't be discussed in here

this CoA and his predecessor made it clear that to achieve Plan Jericho some hard decisions needed to be made

Growler is critical to achieving that 5th Gen Force - but at a systems and capability level - not at the platform level

been discussed on here about the merits of keeping Growler over Shornet

I'd be putting my money on what CoA says because they have driven the change and have had the focus and drive to make it work as intended

despite what marketing says, you can't develop Shornet into a 5th gen platform. there's a tech dev and tipping point where mods to thise legacy platforms become counter productive and impact on future force devs

this isn't a revelation either in the sense that mtgs around Plan Jericho that I attended many many years ago have been persistent in intent and the need to stay on track

the chief, his predecessor and successor will not be of the mind to let delay slip in especially as they have driven the culture around making it work

I can tell you that there is not a lot of fat in compromising the end goal in the timelines set
 
M

Milne Bay

Active Member
gf0012-aust said:
its not just an aspirational interest, I can tell you from first hand experience that any FMS artefact that is not maintained within 2 releases of their US baseline becomes literally impossible to maintain - there are a number of reasons for this which can't be discussed in here

this CoA and his predecessor made it clear that to achieve Plan Jericho some hard decisions needed to be made

Growler is critical to achieving that 5th Gen Force - but at a systems and capability level - not at the platform level

been discussed on here about the merits of keeping Growler over Shornet

I'd be putting my money on what CoA says because they have driven the change and have had the focus and drive to make it work as intended

despite what marketing says, you can't develop Shornet into a 5th gen platform. there's a tech dev and tipping point where mods to thise legacy platforms become counter productive and impact on future force devs

this isn't a revelation either in the sense that mtgs around Plan Jericho that I attended many many years ago have been persistent in intent and the need to stay on track

the chief, his predecessor and successor will not be of the mind to let delay slip in especially as they have driven the culture around making it work

I can tell you that there is not a lot of fat in compromising the end goal in the timelines set
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Thanks for that Gary.
I'm not sure I understand the Growler's place in things. Yes, I get that it is one of the current capability enablers - ie we are learning how to do this stuff with it. But are you saying that it will become redundant by 2025
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Milne Bay said:
Thanks for that Gary.
I'm not sure I understand the Growler's place in things. Yes, I get that it is one of the current capability enablers - ie we are learning how to do this stuff with it. But are you saying that it will become redundant by 2025
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Not suggesting that Growler will be redundant - as it is an enduring platform.. It really does get back to the Chief about whether they want it to sustain the comms centric "eared up" capability to inform everything else sent off to prosecute the fight

bear in mind that when growler was first touted it was interim and the intent for all shornet frames was "return to sender" at a given date. Growler in theory was RTS 2025-2030

what has changed though is that the knowledge about the capability of growler
has demonstrably grown by both embeds in USN and local devs - and that this was happening concurrently with Plan Jericho devs, so understanding and awareness of what growler brings to the fight has also grown in lockstep with how CoA has seen Plan Jericho advance.

Plan Jericho has also grown exponentially as tech and awareness has improved.

I think both myself and ADM have said at various times in here that SHornets will go and Growlers will stay, but that was based on advice at the time. Its a moving feast

either way, if the Chief wants them gone at xx date, then they will be gone - and he has a gods eye view of overall Plan Jericho status

also 5th gen platform is not the same as 5th gen force - so its about situational appreciation, situational awareness, feeds into the common operating picture, sharing of feeds across nodes, capability and architecture etc rather than platform focus etc....
 
M

Milne Bay

Active Member
gf0012-aust said:
Not suggesting that Growler will be redundant - as it is an enduring platform.. It really does get back to the Chief about whether they want it to sustain the comms centric "eared up" capability to inform everything else sent off to prosecute the fight

bear in mind that when growler was first touted it was interim and the intent for all shornet frames was "return to sender" at a given date. Growler in theory was RTS 2025-2030

what has changed though is that the knowledge about the capability of growler
has demonstrably grown by both embeds in USN and local devs - and that this was happening concurrently with Plan Jericho devs, so understanding and awareness of what growler brings to the fight has also grown in lockstep with how CoA has seen Plan Jericho advance.

Plan Jericho has also grown exponentially as tech and awareness has improved.

I think both myself and ADM have said at various times in here that SHornets will go and Growlers will stay, but that was based on advice at the time. Its a moving feast

either way, if the Chief wants them gone at xx date, then they will be gone - and he has a gods eye view of overall Plan Jericho status

also 5th gen platform is not the same as 5th gen force - so its about situational appreciation, situational awareness, feeds into the common operating picture, sharing of feeds across nodes, capability and architecture etc rather than platform focus etc....
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Thanks - that clarifies it somewhat.
Your phrase "a moving feast..." is quite appropriate.
I guess it will be "watch this space"......
MB
 
K

koala

Member
P-8a

The Poseidon has just had its first SAR mission.

Poseidon makes first rescue.

“This is the first search and rescue response completed by the P-8A Poseidon since the aircraft’s arrival into Australia last November. The Poseidon is still undergoing test and evaluation activities before a formal introduction into service.
 
K

koala

Member
koala said:
The Poseidon has just had its first SAR mission.

Poseidon makes first rescue.

“This is the first search and rescue response completed by the P-8A Poseidon since the aircraft’s arrival into Australia last November. The Poseidon is still undergoing test and evaluation activities before a formal introduction into service.
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I think this could be the most beneficial aircraft ever bought into the ADF inventory with its multitude of skills, I wonder if our cousins over the ditch in NZ are getting serious about a purchase now?
 
alexsa

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
H

hauritz

Well-Known Member
alexsa said:
I always wonder if the last 12 SH (which were pre-wired) will end up as Growlers when the SH are phased out.
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There are probably some spare SH just sitting around that could be converted to Growlers right now. The SH that used to serve with No. 6 squadron were transferred to No.1 squadron ... but does No.1 squadron really need 24 airframes?

It seems to me that at least a few of them could be converted to Growlers.
 
V

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
I'd say any possible future conversion is less down to how many aircraft we need/want rather then how many we can actually fill.

In the past it was an issue and seems to be getting worse with civilian air lines poaching pilots from the RAAF faster then they can be replaced.

Unless there is a change in circumstances (ie: Not losing pilots faster then we can replace them) the only way we could field more Growlers would be for any future 4th squadron (F-35D, F/A-XX) to be autonomous (ie: UAV) or we scrap the 4th squadron entirely.
 
A

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
vonnoobie said:
I'd say any possible future conversion is less down to how many aircraft we need/want rather then how many we can actually fill.

In the past it was an issue and seems to be getting worse with civilian air lines poaching pilots from the RAAF faster then they can be replaced.

Unless there is a change in circumstances (ie: Not losing pilots faster then we can replace them) the only way we could field more Growlers would be for any future 4th squadron (F-35D, F/A-XX) to be autonomous (ie: UAV) or we scrap the 4th squadron entirely.
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I doubt we've even scratched the surface of what we 'could' do to help retain qualified pilots, ACO's etc.

Look at the submarine manning issues and the range of programs designed to rectify those issues, which appear to largely have been successful.

With the range of ex-RAAF pilots flying A330 and B-737 and (probably) G550 aircraft I can think of a range of methods just off the top of my head to assist in recruitment, along with the usual bonuses, career path restrictions (ie: flying only postings etc).

I don't think a lack of pilots is any great issue with the ability to expand the RAAF force structure if needs be...
 
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H

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Found this interesting youtube video about the introduction the F-35 and Growler into RAAF service.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1QZEpWjVvU

The training of pilots for the F-35 will be done on the PC-21 and simulators while the Growler pilots will train with the USN.

The Hawk doesn't seem to play any part in the RAAFs fast jet training which leaves me wondering how, or even if this aircraft will be replaced in the 2020s.
 
S

south

Well-Known Member
hauritz said:
Found this interesting youtube video about the introduction the F-35 and Growler into RAAF service.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1QZEpWjVvU

The training of pilots for the F-35 will be done on the PC-21 and simulators while the Growler pilots will train with the USN.

The Hawk doesn't seem to play any part in the RAAFs fast jet training which leaves me wondering how, or even if this aircraft will be replaced in the 2020s.
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Mate you have misinterpreted the AIRCDRE. By all through PC21 he means all through from basic - as in the CT4 is no more. He talks about the future of Hawk with the Hawk LIFCAP (Lead in Fighter Capability Assurance Program), ie iis a current software upgrade to the Hawk127.

Regarding the 2 previous posts - I would say that vonNoobie is more on the mark than AD... keep in mind that for example a FLTCDR (any platform) is anywhere from a 10-15yr project for the RAAF (probably 12-15, and I imagine similar for RAN/ARMY for similar capability people). You cannot replace that with recruitment. Retention is the key. The problem for the ADF pilot stream at present is the high number of airline Jobs both in Australia and overseas (SEA/China/ME) along with Military contractor jobs (Saudi/UAE/Elsewhere....), all of which are paying significantly more than the equivalent ADF pay.
 
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