Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[ngatimozart]

Boeing and others also have next generation offers like the Super Frog an A400M sized aircraft with VTOL capability... There is no shortage of good designs and tech just a problem with seed money...

From appearances the Super Frog is STOL rather than VTOL. Industry Titans Vying for Early Lead in Cargo Aircraft Markets. I don't know what is being done now about the C130 replacement but in 2007 the USAF sought tenders for a lightweight affordable STOL C130 replacement USAF seeks tenders to build composite cargo X-plane. In 2011 GlobalSecurity.org reported that the USAF was beginning the long term acquisition program for the Advanced Theatre Transport (ATT) Advanced Theater Transport. The YC14 and YC15 programs looked interesting. Boeing: YC-14 Military Transport Boeing: YC-14 Military Transport Maybe they could be updated and modernised. However at the moment I think the ATT may have funding issues from the USAF because of sequesteration. Of all the companies I think only Boeing and Lockheed Martin would have the resources to run a company funded program to proof of concept or even possible prototype stage.

 

[Cadredave]

Boeing and others also have next generation offers like the Super Frog an A400M sized aircraft with VTOL capability... There is no shortage of good designs and tech just a problem with seed money...

Thanks for that Abe will have a look at this concept too true about the lack of seed money affecting a lot of programmes

 

[weegee]

Raaf to expand P8 Order?

Hey Guys,

I cam across this article this morning.
Boeing Maritime Jet Gains Favor in Australia, Paring Drone Need - Businessweek
Seems as though there might be more P8's coming to us than previously thought?
Does anyoine think that the RAAF read some alarming or surprising information in that little info pack they asked for from the US about the MQ4C Triton? or was this probably an inevitable situation and the original quoted numbers for the P8 was too small and more airframes were needed anyway?

 

[John Newman]

Hey Guys,

I cam across this article this morning.
Boeing Maritime Jet Gains Favor in Australia, Paring Drone Need - Businessweek
Seems as though there might be more P8's coming to us than previously thought?
Does anyoine think that the RAAF read some alarming or surprising information in that little info pack they asked for from the US about the MQ4C Triton? or was this probably an inevitable situation and the original quoted numbers for the P8 was too small and more airframes were needed anyway?

An increased buy of P8A's? Well that is interesting, but the report does say "could now reach into double figures" so I guess that means possibly a couple of extra airframes, maybe an increase to at least 10?

And it doesn't sound like they are asking for a new larger pot of money either,
Brown said: “We are making an argument that a larger number of P-8s would be better,” he said. “I am not looking for more dollars, I am just looking at where we spend the money.”

So I wonder if that statements means they are looking to 'rob' money from the Triton and cut their numbers?

As to the USN's Triton, yes it might share the basic airframe with the USAF's troubled Global Hawk, but I don't think there has been any negative reporting, publicly at least, on the Triton, Brown also said he was still a "great supporter" of the Triton.

Unless the USN back away from Triton, which doesn't appear to be the case, I would imagine that we will continue to follow the same path in replacing our respective P3C fleets.

 

[gf0012-aust]

there needs to be an understanding that the Triton and GH are fundamentally diff platforms

One is geared for coastal watch type profiles the other is a BAMs companion system

they aren't competing systems and need to be judged against their likely mission sets

 

[hairyman]

Are there any other UAV that we are interested in? I know we are currently using the Heron from Israel, but I thought we were interested in the Mariner and maybe the Predator. I dont know of any European types we are interested in.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Since when was the Global Hawk troubled? It’s a proven highly effective and reliable system. Just because USAF and the Luftwaffe can’t afford all they want doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with GH.

In terms of the Triton vs GH the former has a different sensor suite packaged so as to allow for 360 degree surveillance vs the GH’s lateral field of regard. But the sensors on Triton are still very sensitive and can do much of what the GH can do in terms of generating imagery intelligence (including radar imaging) as well as adding ESM for electronic intelligence. There are also some significant advantages for the Triton with the utilisation of the AESA radar in relation to capability growth (air search for AEW…).

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Are there any other UAV that we are interested in? I know we are currently using the Heron from Israel, but I thought we were interested in the Mariner and maybe the Predator. I dont know of any European types we are interested in.

Coastwatch has been interested in the Mariner version of the Predator B for offshore surveillance for some time. Also Customs have been interested in a smaller UAV for inshore use for covertly gathering evidence to support prosecutions.

The Air Force apart from GH/Triton is interested in a theatre ISR UAV like the Heron and wants to retain this capability post Afghan deployment. The RAAF has built up a reasonable theatre ISR UAV capability and can sustain this with small scale access to actual aircraft until some money is freed up for a proper squadron level acquisition.

The Army has its tactical UAV needs sorted with the Shadow TUAV and Skylark mini UAV types.

So there's six UAV types not to mention the Navy's need for a UAV capability.

 

[hairyman]

Thanks for that Abe, that is just the information I needed.:dance

 

[hairyman]

On the R.A.N. thread there is mention (in Jest) of New Zealand getting B1B lancer bombers and Silent Eagles. On a serious note, what effect would it have on the RAAF if we were to acquire a squadron of B1B Lancer bombers?

 

[protoplasm]

On the R.A.N. thread there is mention (in Jest) of New Zealand getting B1B lancer bombers and Silent Eagles. On a serious note, what effect would it have on the RAAF if we were to acquire a squadron of B1B Lancer bombers?

Question would be what for? It'd have the potential to make some of our neighbours quite nervous if we had the capability of striking Shanghai from Darwin. The range and payload would seem to be very large for the kind of missions that the RAAF undertakes.

 

[Volkodav]

Question would be what for? It'd have the potential to make some of our neighbours quite nervous if we had the capability of striking Shanghai from Darwin. The range and payload would seem to be very large for the kind of missions that the RAAF undertakes.

Not now but a decade or two ago as a F-111 replacement would have been nice. I wonder how much 18-24 B-1Bs would have cost verses AUP, F-111G, F/A-18F and Growler.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

The RAAF wanted to acquire 20 plus Vulcan bombers in the 1950s to replace the Canberra (Medium Bomber Project). If they had been funded for it (they weren’t because Menzies drastically cut defence spending in the second half of the 1950s) then they would probably need replacement in the late 70s to mid 1980s which would make the B-1B the prime, if only, contender. Unless they scaled down from medium bombers to strike with F-111Fs.

One of the things forgotten in the F-111 acquisition is the RAAF scaled down its strike fleet from 48 to 24. The idea was the second 24 would be brought later (or with the RAAF’s recommended A-5B solution all 48 brought at once) but delays and a huge rise in cost killed this off. The RAAF also wanted to keep the leased 24 F-4E Phantoms to keep up the strike aircraft numbers but when the USG lifted the cost of this buy option the chance was lost.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Question would be what for? It'd have the potential to make some of our neighbours quite nervous if we had the capability of striking Shanghai from Darwin. The range and payload would seem to be very large for the kind of missions that the RAAF undertakes.

When the Vulcan was recommended by the RAAF to replace the Canberra the advantages of the medium bomber were seen as increased striking power (despite a reduction in numbers because of more personnel and fuel costs) and enough range to actually meet the RAAF’s needs in South East Asia. The same could be said for the B-1B vs the F-111.

 

[ngatimozart]

Not now but a decade or two ago as a F-111 replacement would have been nice. I wonder how much 18-24 B-1Bs would have cost verses AUP, F-111G, F/A-18F and Growler.

Wouldn't a B1(C?) Lancers powered by 4 x F135 engines be nice? I saw recently that the USAF are building a maritime strike package for the B1B. Lockheed are working on a new LRASM (long-range anti-ship missile) based on the AGM-158B Joint Air-to-Surface Stand-off Missile-Extended Range (JASSM-ER) for the USDARPA. I think it's a pity none of the western missile manufacturers have fielded a supersonic ASM such as BRAHMOS.

 

[John Newman]

Not now but a decade or two ago as a F-111 replacement would have been nice. I wonder how much 18-24 B-1Bs would have cost verses AUP, F-111G, F/A-18F and Growler.

Yes a couple of Sqn's of B1B's, that is a nice thought....

Actually I remember in the early 2000's when the US was planning to mothball around a 1/3rd of the B1B fleet, I thought yes they could find a good home here in OZ, the second though I had was, I can imagine what the 'neighbours' would think of such a move!

Thinking of this now also reminds me of some quotes I read a couple of years ago when I bought a book on the F-111 titled, 'From Controversy To Cutting Edge'.

Kim Beasley was quoted as saying that Keating was a big fan of the F-111, even from his early days as a young MP and by the time he was PM, when the G's became available, he insisted we buy them.

The book goes on to say that Keating apparently wanted to buy 52 F-111G's!!

I'll repeat the paragraph below:

"The first the RAAF knew was when Senator Robert Ray called the Chief of the Air Staff, Air Marshall Ray Funnell, over to Parliament to inform him. Funnell was astounded when Prime Minister Keating announced he wanted to buy 52 F-111Gs. Funnell recalled: 'my immediate thoughts were that the RAAF couldn't handle such a number and, more importantly, what would the neighbours say?' The 52 aircraft were quickly negotiated down to 36. Air Commodore Errol McCormack, who was Director General Force Development (Air), found that he had to quickly make the arrangements. McCormack recalled that the news 'took everyone by surprise, especially me as I was supposed to organise such projects! The initial direction was to acquire 36 aircraft, but, fortunately, I managed to get that down to 18. ...."

Interesting read, Keating started out wanting 52 and it eventually ending up as 'up to' 18, then finally 15 G's purchased.

One the one hand the PM of the day wants to make a very big purchase and the RAAF on the other hand is saying 'no no no, way too many, and it will upset the neighbours!'

Absorbing that many aircraft would certainly have been difficult (without a significant increase in operating budget), but with that many airframes available, the F-111 fleet possibly could have had a lot longer life in RAAF service, oh well, what might have been.......


(Note: And yes even though Keating is reported as saying he wanted 52 F-111G's, of the remaining 60 or so FB-111A's left at that stage, conversion to G's was terminated at 34 airframes, possibly this might have meant that more would have been converted had this purchase ever proceeded).

 

[Abraham Gubler]

One the one hand the PM of the day wants to make a very big purchase and the RAAF on the other hand is saying 'no no no, way too many, and it will upset the neighbours!'

It’s not mandatory to be hesitant and irresolute to become a service chief in this day and age but it does help.

Absorbing that many aircraft would certainly have been difficult (without a significant increase in operating budget), but with that many airframes available, the F-111 fleet possibly could have had a lot longer life in RAAF service, oh well, what might have been.......

If the RAAF leadership had been more dynamic at the time then they should have asked for an increase in the establishment of 82 Wing to 36 flying ‘combat coded’ aircraft and an OCU in order to put that 80 odd F-111 (Gs+ Cs + RFs) to use. Then we would have a six squadron RAAF rather than a four squadron one. When the politicians are hot for something it’s time to strike.

 

[John Newman]

It’s not mandatory to be hesitant and irresolute to become a service chief in this day and age but it does help.



If the RAAF leadership had been more dynamic at the time then they should have asked for an increase in the establishment of 82 Wing to 36 flying ‘combat coded’ aircraft and an OCU in order to put that 80 odd F-111 (Gs+ Cs + RFs) to use. Then we would have a six squadron RAAF rather than a four squadron one. When the politicians are hot for something it’s time to strike.

Abe, I agree that when someone gets to such a senior level that you certainly have to be a cautious beast by nature, you don't get to that level by sticking your head in the bear trap unless you know it's unloaded.

I would have loved to have been there to see the look on Funnell's face when Keating said he wanted 52 F-111G's! If it was me, my first thoughts (after I picked myself up from the floor) would have been 'what's the catch? What do I have to give up to get this many additional aircraft?'.

And its probably a very very rare occasion that the pollies are offering something more than expected rather than taking away, and especially in peace time too.

 

[John Newman]

Came across this a little while ago:

Boeing approves one more year of C-17 production on anticipated demand

Boeing is putting its hand in its own pocket to build up to another 12 C-17A's that is doesn't have firm orders for.

Boeing says it is in discussions with a range of new and existing customers, although previous reports have linked the C-17 to additional orders from India and Australia and possible new orders from Saudi Arabia and Singapore.

I wonder what chance there really is for maybe another 1 or 2 for the RAAF?

 

[rand0m]

What are the options should the worst case scenario occur and the F-35 is cancelled? More Shortnets? Typhoon? Gripen? What other options are there....?:eek

Pentagon considers canceling F-35 program | Aviation & Air Force News at DefenceTalk