Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates
VerySneaky
New Member
Looks like the first 3 squadrons are to replace the classic hornets and to be complemented by the supers/growlers until the 4th squadron arrives. Not 100% about whether this was always planned, maybe someone else has more information about it but I remember reading about a 4th a while ago, there was a big question mark over it going ahead though.
Yes, way back to 2002. Even then there was a three tranche proposal but the first and second tranches were combined and then split but with only a few years separating them. The third tranche was always planned to be a much later decision with an option for a different type of aircraft or UCAV. However the JSF team were instructed to act as if it was going to be more F-35s (for the four squadron, 100 total) despite the air force/govt. maintaining an option to acquire something else.
The original plan (circa 2002) was for the F-111 to retire in 2010-12 with first No. 6 Squadron moving to the USA to become the F-35 training unit (~2010) and then No. 1 Squadron to convert to the F/A-18A (~2012) and become the conversion covering unit in a similar role to Nos. 77 and 79 Squadrons with the Mirage in the late 80s. Then the original Hornet squadrons (Nos 3, 75, 77 Squadrons) would all convert to F-35 with No. 2 OCU being absorbed into No. 6 Squadron at some point (or vice versa). Then at the end of all this (~2020) No. 1 Squadron would either convert to F-35 or a new type of aircraft depending on the AIR 6000 decision.
With the acquisition of the Super Hornet and the push back in schedule the only difference is No. 1 Squadron won’t convert to the classic Hornet and the JSF training unit resourcing will be provided from across the RAAF rather than just No. 6 Squadron. AIR 6000 still has capacity for the fourth squadron of F-35s, or a new aircraft or nothing.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Abe,
Is there a possibility that the Squadron structures you've noted above will change if the Government goes ahead with the conversion of the pre-wired Super's to Growlers and also eventually commits to ordering the 4th F-35A Squadron as well?
Would it be reasonable to assume that the Growler's will continue to operate into the 2030's, especially if somewhere further down the track the ALQ-99 pods are replaced by the Next Generation Jammer pods?
If so, the structure could be 1, 3, 75 and 77 Sqns (and 2OCU training) equipped with F-35A's and 6 Sqn to operate the Growlers.
Surely if the Government is going to invest the time and money in developing an AEA capability with the Growlers, which it appears keen to do, I would assume they would remain operational for a lot longer than the unconverted Super Hornets.
Interested to know your opinion.
Regardless of what happens with the AIR 6000 Phase 2C (4th Sqn) I think 82 Wing (1 & 6 Sqn) will stay flying Super Hornets until the end of life of that aircraft. As I've said before and going back to 2008 even if we acquire 12 Growlers there are plenty of reasons to keep the other 12 Super Hornets flying. One of which is to train Growler aircrews plus fast FAC. If AIR 6000/2C goes ahead with 25 more F-35As then they can just raise another squadron. If it goes ahead with a UCAV then another Wing for the new aircraft type.
PS The original pre COIN reason for the Growler was to support the F-35 against >2025 air threats so they won't be discarded when the F-35 is introduced.
Are you sure?
That sounds far too much like common sense for any of the clowns currently occupying Canberra. Seriously though good to hear, especially as the US is pretty much sure to design a replacement within the LOT of our Rhinos/ Growlers (as theirs will be older) we should be able to tag along with their procurement of what ever type they go for.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Thanks for that, yes makes sense.
Expanding this a bit further, do you think when the SHornets/Growlers are retired, because the airframes eventually will run out of life, that more F35's could be purchased to take over the AEA role?
As I understand it, the NJG (Next Generation Jammer) pods are/or were planned to be eventually fitted to F-35's.
As I said before, I can't imagine the Goverment spending all the time and money building an AEA capability with the Growlers and then letting it just fade away when the airframes that carry that capability run out of life.
I suppose we could select some of the eventual 100 F-35's planned to be in service to take over that capability or add to it by purchasing some additional airframes for that specific purpose of AEA Sqn.
I actually just read the Defence Capability Plan.
AIR 6000 Phase 2C states.
That makes sense ... 24 F-18F aren't really enough to equip two squadrons for any extended period of time. The EA-18F will be kept in service and the F-18F could be reassigned to the OCUs and as backups for the Growlers.
AIR 6000 Phase 2C states.
Obviously they are talking about replacing one of the Super Hornet squadrons and not creating a brand new squadron.
That makes sense ... 24 F-18F aren't really enough to equip two squadrons for any extended period of time. The EA-18F will be kept in service and the F-18F could be reassigned to the OCUs and as backups for the Growlers.
Despite the fact that the Super Hornets are allocated to two squadrons they are considered just a single operational strike fighter squadron in terms of capability. This is because No. 6 Squadron is a training unit not an operational one. 24 aircraft means around 18 on the flight line at any one point in time of which 12 comprise a squadron and the other six the aircrew training capability.
What would happen with the Growler modification and AIR 6000 Phase 2C is the operational squadron provided by the Super Hornet would be replaced by the new aircraft (F-35 or UCAV). The Super Hornets (some of which are now called Growlers) and their squadrons would stay as is but no longer be considered one of the four operational strike fighter squadrons. Rather the airborne electronic attack, airborne command fighter, fast FAC capability.
From ADM:
DB-110s for RAAF?
DB-110s for RAAF?
Appears the RAAF have realised the ATFLIR and Litening pods don't provide a sufficient Recon / ISR capability and are missing the old RF-111's...
I do wonder if this "scoop" is related to this announcement in July 2012 though?
https://sypaq.com.au/2012/goodrich-...sent-db-110-surveillance-system-in-australia/
DB-110s for RAAF?
DB-110s for RAAF?
Appears the RAAF have realised the ATFLIR and Litening pods don't provide a sufficient Recon / ISR capability and are missing the old RF-111's...
I do wonder if this "scoop" is related to this announcement in July 2012 though?
https://sypaq.com.au/2012/goodrich-...sent-db-110-surveillance-system-in-australia/
It is suggested that these may also be acquired for the RAAF P-3's.
First I've heard that we are considering another 12 S-Hornets ..
Update - Goodrich, SYPAQ team up to market DB-110 pod in Australia - Farnborough 2012 | IHS Jane's
There is no actual indication from the RAAF that they want a new pod just that Goodrich and Sypacq are marketing it to them. However that’s not to say the RAAF wouldn’t want a DB-110 it’s a very good capability but it certainly isn’t a case of plugging a hole left by the RF-111C. The DB-110 is a LOROP (LOng-range Oblique Photographic) sensor that wasn’t part of the RF-111C sensor suite. The DB-110 was trialled in the 1990s for the RF-111 but never acquired. A similar capability was to be acquired for the RAAF via the initial two Block 10 Global Hawks but this got cancelled back in the early 2000s. LOROP is best delivered by a very high flying platform like Global Hawk, U-2 and RF-4 but DB-110 on Super Hornet would be better than nothing.
Been doing the rounds since March - common knowledge but Directors are taking the "commercial sensitivity issues" to heart.and literally
Not too sure of when the last of the F-35's will arrive in RAAF service, but 2020 is probably being kind - more likely later than this. I would say that by then the remaining classic F/A-18's (HUG'd) still in service will be pretty long in the tooth if not knackered.
The S Hornets will likely soldier on - Abe will have a clearer picture here.
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Don't know about the legacy Hornets but the Supers will almost certainly be kept around, I imagine. They're very few airframes and with the size of the USN's fleet (and capability/processing capacity present in the Growler variant), I'm sure they will be kept sufficiently up to date to be relevant for quite some time. Outside of some future development making them obsolescent before of their time, I don't know why the RAAF would be too hasty in wanting to get rid of them.
As far as NZ goes, it'd be good to see them reconstitute their air combat capabilities, but I don't think it's very likely in the near future with a limited budget and more relevant capabilities (maritime patrol, airlift, etc) consuming funding. Even then I don't know enough about the airframe life left on the legacy Hornets to be able to say how useful they'd be to another user. I very much doubt the Supers would be headed to NZ - can't see Australia or New Zealand going for that one, in my opinion.
As far as NZ goes, it'd be good to see them reconstitute their air combat capabilities, but I don't think it's very likely in the near future with a limited budget and more relevant capabilities (maritime patrol, airlift, etc) consuming funding. Even then I don't know enough about the airframe life left on the legacy Hornets to be able to say how useful they'd be to another user. I very much doubt the Supers would be headed to NZ - can't see Australia or New Zealand going for that one, in my opinion.
IIRC the CBR Program does offer the potential for a reasonable life extension to the legacy hornet's, just look how long they kept the A4's going for ? Would love to see the Kiwi's with a couple of dozen of them, and many Kiwi's would love to have them, but as you have pointed out the current budget is stretched just trying to cover what they need now, and I can't see that improving in the future
Actually I think that the Super Hornet ceased to be interim fighter the day the decision was made to wire 12 of them for the Growler upgrade.
Certainly those aircraft will be kept.
This kind of messes up plans for the RAAF to have a homogeneous fighter force. It means that it will no longer be of any advantage in terms of training and maintenance since a number of Super Hornets are going to remain part of the inventory for the foreseeable future.
It is really not a case of "will the Super Hornet be retained" as much as "how many super hornets will be retained".
If additional aircraft are purchased then it will almost certainly be at the expense of the F-35.
My guess is that 12 additional F/A-18F will be purchased.
My reasoning is that the 12 Growlers will eventually be split off to form their own flight and the new aircraft will then join the current Super Hornets in 1 and 6 squadrons.
The F-35 order will then be reduced to 72 aircraft.
Its all a guess on my part, but certainly the Gillard government and by the sound of things any Abbot government aren't likely to want to spend any more money then they have to on this project.
Certainly those aircraft will be kept.
This kind of messes up plans for the RAAF to have a homogeneous fighter force. It means that it will no longer be of any advantage in terms of training and maintenance since a number of Super Hornets are going to remain part of the inventory for the foreseeable future.
It is really not a case of "will the Super Hornet be retained" as much as "how many super hornets will be retained".
If additional aircraft are purchased then it will almost certainly be at the expense of the F-35.
My guess is that 12 additional F/A-18F will be purchased.
My reasoning is that the 12 Growlers will eventually be split off to form their own flight and the new aircraft will then join the current Super Hornets in 1 and 6 squadrons.
The F-35 order will then be reduced to 72 aircraft.
Its all a guess on my part, but certainly the Gillard government and by the sound of things any Abbot government aren't likely to want to spend any more money then they have to on this project.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Brings up some interesting questions, in my mind at least, with the talk of an additional 12 Super Hornets.
* Is it just part of what Def Min Smith has said earlier about looking at options to avoid a capability gap if the F35 is further delayed, eg, cost, technical, production, etc? (and no I'm not part of the anti-F35 brigade, ok?)
* Is the 4th Sqn of F35's going to be pushed even further along (or deferred) because of budgetry contraints, etc?
* Is it tied into the possible/probable conversion of all 12 pre-wired Shornets into Growlers so the RAAF can continue to operate a force of 24 Shornets as well?
* Is it also a way to retire/replace the most worn out of the Classic Hornets earlier?
* Or is it some or all of the above or something I havn't though of?
The next thing is how do we get the manpower to support and operate them, if they are additional to the current Classic and Supers in service, where do they get based too.
* Does Amberley have the capability to absorb and support another Sqn? (2 Super, 1 Growler, C17's and the KC30's too).
* If not where? Could 75 Sqn at Tindal trade it's Classics for Supers?
* If so, could the Classics from 75 Sqn then go back to Williamstown and be rotated through a larger "pool" to extend the life of the 3, 77 Sqns and 2 OCU Classic Hornets till the F35's eventually arrive?
If, as it appears, the Goverment is interested in a AEA Sqn with 12 Growlers and also obtain another Sqn of 12 Supers, the manpower and resources has to come from somewhere.
With the current budgetry contraints I can't see them being an additional Sqn with all the basing and manpower costs, maybe they will just be part of a larger pool of aircraft for 1 Sqn, especially if 6 Sqn becomes the Growler Sqn.
* Is it just part of what Def Min Smith has said earlier about looking at options to avoid a capability gap if the F35 is further delayed, eg, cost, technical, production, etc? (and no I'm not part of the anti-F35 brigade, ok?)
* Is the 4th Sqn of F35's going to be pushed even further along (or deferred) because of budgetry contraints, etc?
* Is it tied into the possible/probable conversion of all 12 pre-wired Shornets into Growlers so the RAAF can continue to operate a force of 24 Shornets as well?
* Is it also a way to retire/replace the most worn out of the Classic Hornets earlier?
* Or is it some or all of the above or something I havn't though of?
The next thing is how do we get the manpower to support and operate them, if they are additional to the current Classic and Supers in service, where do they get based too.
* Does Amberley have the capability to absorb and support another Sqn? (2 Super, 1 Growler, C17's and the KC30's too).
* If not where? Could 75 Sqn at Tindal trade it's Classics for Supers?
* If so, could the Classics from 75 Sqn then go back to Williamstown and be rotated through a larger "pool" to extend the life of the 3, 77 Sqns and 2 OCU Classic Hornets till the F35's eventually arrive?
If, as it appears, the Goverment is interested in a AEA Sqn with 12 Growlers and also obtain another Sqn of 12 Supers, the manpower and resources has to come from somewhere.
With the current budgetry contraints I can't see them being an additional Sqn with all the basing and manpower costs, maybe they will just be part of a larger pool of aircraft for 1 Sqn, especially if 6 Sqn becomes the Growler Sqn.
Keeping the super hornets could prove beneficial to Australia in the long term.
The only other air force in the world that will operate a mix of F-35s, Rhinos and Growlers will be the USN.
The USN of course isn't planning to replace its Super Hornets with the F-35 but rather with a 6th generation F-xx.
This could put the RAAF in a position to move into 6th generation aircraft technology far more quickly then would be the case if we buy an all F-35 force.
The only other air force in the world that will operate a mix of F-35s, Rhinos and Growlers will be the USN.
The USN of course isn't planning to replace its Super Hornets with the F-35 but rather with a 6th generation F-xx.
This could put the RAAF in a position to move into 6th generation aircraft technology far more quickly then would be the case if we buy an all F-35 force.