Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

jack412

Active Member
This snuck past me, I dont know if everyone else picked it up
Boeing will be pleased because they wont get anymore fines for show and tell with congress cut out of the loop

US ratifies agreements for exporting arms to Britain and Australia | Atlantic Council
From Hillary Clinton, U.S. Department of State: We welcome the Senate’s approval of the U.S.-UK and the U.S.-Australia Defense Trade Cooperation Treaties and the passage of implementing legislation by the House and Senate.

Under the treaties, it will be possible for most U.S. defense articles to be exported into, and within, these communities without prior licenses or other authorizations pursuant to the ITAR
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This snuck past me, I dont know if everyone else picked it up
Boeing will be pleased because they wont get anymore fines for show and tell with congress cut out of the loop

US ratifies agreements for exporting arms to Britain and Australia | Atlantic Council
From Hillary Clinton, U.S. Department of State: We welcome the Senate’s approval of the U.S.-UK and the U.S.-Australia Defense Trade Cooperation Treaties and the passage of implementing legislation by the House and Senate.

Under the treaties, it will be possible for most U.S. defense articles to be exported into, and within, these communities without prior licenses or other authorizations pursuant to the ITAR

released internally earlier.

they also stepped in line with aust on the issue of foreign nationals and ITARs
 

jack412

Active Member
It has dragged on for several years and the current vice pres wasn't too keen as the head of the committee when Bush wanted to put it through, so considering it went through in a democrat gov, I'd say it was a win
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It has dragged on for several years and the current vice pres wasn't too keen as the head of the committee when Bush wanted to put it through, so considering it went through in a democrat gov, I'd say it was a win
its been happening without this formal change from the US Exec anyway. This is just brass plating

eg the USN has backed aust and vigorously pursued access for aust to a number of critical tech requirements over the years.
 

weegee

Active Member
More Super Hornets?

I found this on the net today,
Australia Mulls Additional Super Hornet Buy | AVIATION WEEK
I wonder how true it is? But it does make sense if we are running that close to the timeline.

How will LM react to this? presumably missing out on a possible 50 F35 will not make them happy or do they know that we will probably end up buying the 100 f35 we wanted anyway just down the track a little further?
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I found this on the net today,
Australia Mulls Additional Super Hornet Buy | AVIATION WEEK
I wonder how true it is? But it does make sense if we are running that close to the timeline.

How will LM react to this? presumably missing out on a possible 50 F35 will not make them happy or do they know that we will probably end up buying the 100 f35 we wanted anyway just down the track a little further?
This has been mooted for a while. I think these sort of announcements are serving two purposes, 1. Keeping the political environment covered in so far as we are "minimising the (so-called but still nonsensical) air-gap" and 2. Lighting a bit of a fire up under L-M. If we see further schedule blow-outs then the F-35 simply won't be available in time to adequately replace the Hornets, forcing us to look elsewhere.

If we seek another solution to do that, even partially then I can see our numbers of F-35's dropping despite what RAAF wants for our future fighter force, because I see a fleet of 48 Super Hornets as making a substantial component of our air combat capability for a LONG time if we expend the $10b or so it will take to make this Super Hornet force happen.

(By $10b I mean the original $6b package plus approximately $3-4b for the additional 24x aircraft and associated systems and support).
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Is it still planned for #1 to stay in the US indefinately?
Maybe not indefinitely. I saw that our two legacy Bugs that were in the US conducting testing on the various elements of the HUG, including JASSM live fires have returned home recently.

I guess it depends how many upgrades and weapons integrations we decide to do and the longevity of the fleet (or otherwise) will no doubt impact upon that.
 

Kirkzzy

New Member
I found this on the net today,
Australia Mulls Additional Super Hornet Buy | AVIATION WEEK
I wonder how true it is? But it does make sense if we are running that close to the timeline.

How will LM react to this? presumably missing out on a possible 50 F35 will not make them happy or do they know that we will probably end up buying the 100 f35 we wanted anyway just down the track a little further?
BS we will... :mad: RAAF will fight for the F-35s.
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
BS we will... :mad: RAAF will fight for the F-35s.
Not just the RAAF it seems ........

Abigroup to construct JSF facilities

25 Aug 2011

Abigroup has won a national Defence contract to prepare RAAF airbases around Australia to receive the air force’s next generation of fighter jets.

Abigroup has been awarded the contract for the planning phase of the New Air Combat Capability (NACC) facilities two phase project which involves a combination of new and refurbished facilities on 10 Defence sites around Australia as the new Joint Strike Fighter, F-35 Lightning II jets are phased in.

The bulk of the work is proposed to occur at RAAF Bases Williamtown, north of Newcastle, and Tindal, in the Northern Territory.

Additional work is proposed for eight other RAAF bases located at Townsville, Amberley and Scherger on the Cape York Peninsula in Queensland, Learmonth, Curtin and Pearce in Western Australia, Edinburgh, north of Adelaide, and Darwin.

The contract will be carried out in two phases.

The first phase – the planning phase – which has just been awarded and will last two years – consists of the preliminary design and costing of the project.

The second phase – which will last six years and is subject to final Federal Government confirmation and Parliamentary approval – is scheduled to commence in mid 2013 and will consist of finalisation of the design and then construction of the works.

ADM: Abigroup to construct JSF facilities
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
How will LM react to this? presumably missing out on a possible 50 F35 will not make them happy or do they know that we will probably end up buying the 100 f35 we wanted anyway just down the track a little further?
We have a completely operational backup plan. The superhornets we have now will do us until we start getting F-35's. If there is a huge delay (I can't see that happening) then we have a completely viable option, to almost instantly get the aircraft we need. Which means we can wait for the F-35 and we will. The only thing that would upset that would be if we went to war tomorrow and we needed something urgently to defend ourselves (Im not talking about international missions). We could sustain ourselves for a short while but our airframes would rack up hours very quickly. But we already have F-35 on order which I would imagine get here as fast as they can, and faster than any additional SH. There is no gap, we have that well covered.

How many F-35 is the real question. If costs spiral out of control I would imagine the 100 number would move south. If its as expected then I think we will try to go for 100. At which point we may or may not get rid of the SH depending on how valuable they are. If we did want to get rid of them, USN/USMC or several other nations would proberly love to jump into them (even the UK perhaps?), Malaysia, Spain, Canada, Japan.. Or we convert them to growlers (12?) and keep them with 84-100 F-35's. The final F-35 order could be sat on for a LONG time, which isn't a bad thing because it stops block obsolence issues, getting the best and greatest later builds etc. Ideally we would have 96 F-35's (4x24) and 12 Growlers. Growler conversion still has 9 hardpoints so is still a very capable aircraft for bombing or A2A. JSOW (and ER?) and ATFLIR can be carried.

Obviously the government is very concerned about being hammered over an "airgap". Its a concern because its gets a lot of publicity and becomes a big fear in anti immigration/imminent invasion heartland. Talking never hurt anyone, it costs very little and makes it seem like your strong on defence. Look at the F-22 talk. Very cheap way to seem strong on defence, even tho its a dead end even the US isn't buying F-22's. If it falls through you blame faceless Americans because *THEY* won't sell it to us... Thats how strong we are on defence, the americans won't even sell us the Nukes and spaceships we need and they sold tanks to Saddam and f14 to Iran!

Maybe not indefinitely. I saw that our two legacy Bugs that were in the US conducting testing on the various elements of the HUG, including JASSM live fires have returned home recently.
With a SH living there it gives us a presence in the US and a platform. Simply for development and training purposes it would be highly valuable to have atleast one in the US. However, if war broke out, it could be returned literially in a few hours, proberly carrying some wizbang US equipment slung underneath it etc. Im suprised we don't actually have more assets in the US more of the time.

I will imagine the SH will come home once we have F-35's in the US as that will be the new play thing and 2 will stay in the US.
 

wormhole

New Member
I think it would have to be a very significant delay to justify acquiring additional SHs. Otherwise, the practical thing to do would seem to be just accepting a higher maintenance bill for legacy fleet. I don't see saddling the RAAF with more aircraft of a lesser capability as being in its long term best interest.
 

JWCook

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I think it would have to be a very significant delay to justify acquiring additional SHs. Otherwise, the practical thing to do would seem to be just accepting a higher maintenance bill for legacy fleet. I don't see saddling the RAAF with more aircraft of a lesser capability as being in its long term best interest.

Seems someone agrees with you.

Chambliss specifically asks Panetta to “forgo procuring additional fourth-generation aircraft such as the F-18E/F,” saying that the fighter is of “limited to no value in any future threat scenario and will only drain scarce budgetary resources from systems designed to keep us ahead of our adversaries”, Bloomberg reports.
Cheers
 

Kalasag

New Member
Australia should be embarrassed that they are getting Super Hornets. A pretty badly designed plane that is well-suited for aircraft carriers. Very perplexed as to why they'd choose an inferior plane as compared to the other planes SEA countries have. Thailand already has the Saab Gripen. Indonesia and Malaysia have the Su-30 and Singapore has the F-15SG.

The radar on those Super Hornets are top-notch, but it's only a matter of time before SEA countries upgrade their capabilities. Some options the RAAF could have done:

1) Ordered Silent Eagles, while keeping the existing F-111s in service.
2) Build a better plane suited to this generation based on the F-111 design, which would jumpstart the Australian defense industry (in consortium with American companies).
3) Upgraded the existing F-111s to better standards.
4) A combination of all three.

I'm a very big proponent of Australia having a strong air power to promote stability in the Asia-Pacific region.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Some options the RAAF could have done:

1) Ordered Silent Eagles, while keeping the existing F-111s in service.
2) Build a better plane suited to this generation based on the F-111 design, which would jumpstart the Australian defense industry (in consortium with American companies).
3) Upgraded the existing F-111s to better standards.
4) A combination of all three.
Nah... We should have secretly converted the sunken wreck of the Yamato into a space battleship. That would have been an excellent F-111 replacement.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xGv6vaj378o/TWeYM5aukuI/AAAAAAAABK0/0-w-IiLhT3Y/s1600/yamato.jpg
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The f111 were oging to cost billions to keep going. Even when we were getting the few parts from the last remaing us stocks it was costing as much as the rest of our airforce.
http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/def_funding/fundch9.pdf

The f111 were unabled to be deployed in the late 90's due to being unable to survive in modern enviroments.

The parts had dried up, the US had wound up the F111 a long time ago, restablishing manufacturing lines, developments etc. While this sounds easy, restablishing lines takes time and huge amounts of money. For what a few measley airframes. Theres not the volume to make it viable.

While the F111 was able to carry a fearsome payload, a very long distance and could use speed and radar evading low altitude, its days are over.

If we wanted a modern updated F-111 we could have jumped into the B1 program, it would have been cheaper and more effective than developing our own F-111's.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Can we not go down the F-111, F15 Snn, the end of the world is nigh in the PACRIM due to 6 Flankers without weapons are now tarmac queens mantra etc......

New posters should really trawl and search before spawning old topics....

Existing members should know better.... :)
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
Can we not go down the F-111, F15 Snn, the end of the world is nigh in the PACRIM due to 6 Flankers without weapons are now tarmac queens mantra etc......

New posters should really trawl and search before spawning old topics....

Existing members should know better.... :)
Reinforcing this, as we've had this discussion so many times I've lost count...

Kalasag, I'd suggest you refrain from telling people their countries "should be embarrassed" by procurement decisions. None of the points you made are valid possibilities for reasons you'd know if you researched the topic further - and that's not an insult, just an observation.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Reinforcing this, as we've had this discussion so many times I've lost count...

Kalasag, I'd suggest you refrain from telling people their countries "should be embarrassed" by procurement decisions. None of the points you made are valid possibilities for reasons you'd know if you researched the topic further - and that's not an insult, just an observation.
What would have been embarrassing is ordering something other than the Block II SH and having to wait for new order airframes rather than just taking over USN slots. What would have been even more embarrassing is leasing or buying an allegedly better A2A fighter and forgetting the fact it was replacing a strike aircraft.

The SH may not have been the best option considering the timing involved, it was realistically the only option.
 
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