Royal Air Force (RAF-UK) Discussions and Updates

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swerve

Super Moderator
Stobiewan:
Damn right. Chartering out spare aircraft: fine. Keeps costs down. Having a long-term support contract with the suppliers of the equipment, who do much the same for loads of commercial customers: fine. Paying for the aircraft by getting a commercial consortium to borrow money at commercial rates, i.e. more than the government would pay, while the government still has the ultimate risk: just plain stupid.

Todjaeger said:
That article looks to be (aside from a beatup) one of the reasons why members who have been around awhile urge so much caution when quoting prices for aircraft.

Even if the article was accurate about the 2007 price for an A330 being £50 mil. I would not expect a military configuration A330 MRTT to have the same flyaway cost as the civilian airliner version. Then of course the article has very little breakdown on what the £10.5 bil. "price" covers, or over what span of time. From what I have read, it seems likely that the £10.5 bil. was or is the total projected cost over the entire life of the programme. If that is the case, then that is an entirely different situation from what the article appears to be presenting when it suggested that the cost for the MoD to purchase the aircraft outright would likely have been "only" £700 mil.
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And it ignores the facts that using the FFNBW aircraft for civil charters saves money for the MoD, as the income is offset against the bill to the MoD, & that if we were making full use of the entire fleet in peacetime, something would go seriously wrong if we needed to fight a war of reasonable intensity.
 
FORBIN

FORBIN

Member
Air Force Brat said:
So Mister Forbin, 5 more B models were flown to the UK?? or delivered here in the states??
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Have touched down at RAF Marham
Ministry of Defence on Twitter
from Beaufort USMC base a part of this Sqn 617th is again there normaly 2 birds and now 9 in UK replace Tornado in this unit, next year 207th Sqn a OCU stand up.

The 17th Sqn a OEU is to Edwards with 4 birds UK have 15 on 48 F-35B

But for country as UK the delivery rythm is enough low ! the more fast except USA but normal many units to provide… is for Australia going for 12/year ! and Norway little country 6/year.
 
oldsig127

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
FORBIN said:
But for country as UK the delivery rythm is enough low ! the more fast except USA but normal many units to provide… is for Australia going for 12/year ! and Norway little country 6/year.
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Australia 15/year starting 2021, the average though is pulled down by the initial LRIP purchases

oldsig
 
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Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Australian Defence Magazine has a article about a possible RAF E-7A buy and in July 3 RAF personnel arrived at RAAF Williamstown to begin Training.

PS my Laptop is saying the Australian Defence Magazine Website is not secure so i wont post a Link, I have never had a problem there but if you Google it it should come up.
 
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hauritz

Well-Known Member
Redlands18 said:
Australian Defence Magazine has a article about a possible RAF E-7A buy and in July 3 RAF personnel arrived at RAAF Williamstown to begin Training.

PS my Laptop is saying the Australian Defence Magazine Website is not secure so i wont post a Link, I have never had a problem there but if you Google it it should come up.
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My computer doesn't detect any problems with the site.

UK moves closer to Wedgetail buy - Australian Defence Magazine

Interesting that the RAF are sending aircrew to train on an aircraft that they haven't yet decided to order. Maybe this is more of an evaluation exercise.

Mind you the Wedgetail would seem to be the obvious choice.
 
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
hauritz said:
My computer doesn't detect any problems with the site.

UK moves closer to Wedgetail buy - Australian Defence Magazine

Interesting that the RAF are sending aircrew to train on an aircraft that they haven't yet decided to order. Maybe this is more of an evaluation exercise.

Mind you the Wedgetail would seem to be the obvious choice.
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Last time they did that was Seedcorn - no official plan in place to buy it and yet..

I'm hopeful, I think Wedgetail looks pretty good plus it'll save us a chunk of change trying to keep the Sentries in the air.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
From what I've heard being discussed, the RAF E-3s have been allowed to fall behind on updates, & it'd cost a lot to bring them up to date. It's been suggested that with the high cost of keeping them flying, it could be cost-effective to replace rather than update them, especially since they're pretty old tech now. Any replacement (& of course the AEW 737 is most likely) would be cheaper to operate.
 
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
swerve said:
From what I've heard being discussed, the RAF E-3s have been allowed to fall behind on updates, & it'd cost a lot to bring them up to date. It's been suggested that with the high cost of keeping them flying, it could be cost-effective to replace rather than update them, especially since they're pretty old tech now. Any replacement (& of course the AEW 737 is most likely) would be cheaper to operate.
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That's the crux of the matter unfortunately - they're way off the curve and the upgrades to get them into line have been touted as 2bn and that's without any upgrades to the radar. I am getting super excited at the idea of leaping a generation and getting a much more modern platform into service.
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
At £2 billion for updating, & the likely cost of keeping 30 year old Boeing 707 airframes flying even with relatively modern CFM56 engines, I think that a one for one replacement by any of the current western AEW aircraft, even the biggest & presumably most expensive (the 737 AEW), should pay for itself almost immediately.
 
Todjaeger

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
swerve said:
At £2 billion for updating, & the likely cost of keeping 30 year old Boeing 707 airframes flying even with relatively modern CFM56 engines, I think that a one for one replacement by any of the current western AEW aircraft, even the biggest & presumably most expensive (the 737 AEW), should pay for itself almost immediately.
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Per the MOD, the 2015 SDSR called for keeping the Sentry in service until 2035... whether or not that is technically feasible or economically sensible is of course another story.

Looking through some things, Turkey's Peace Eagle programme which delivered four Boeing 737-700 AEW&C aircraft based on the RAAF E-7 Wedgetail for an initial contract price of USD$1.6 bil. back in 2002, which included a software support centre. While time (and inflation) has moved on that would suggest that a 1:1 replacement of the RAF's current E-3D Sentry AEW.Mk1 for a version of the Boeing AEW&C would be a little over £3 bil.

While it appears that there would be a higher up front cost for getting a version of the Wedgetail, I suspect both the capabilities and operating/support costs would be better than that of upgraded RAF Sentries. I would not be surprised if it was projected that my estimated £1 bil. higher up front cost would be made up over a 15+ year service life by increased mission availability, reduced operating costs, and a potentially significantly reduced maintenance burden. The first Sentry entered RAF service in July, 1991 so has been in for 27 years at present. If the Sentries are kept until 2035, the type would have been in service for 44 years, while the airframe would have been out of production since 1992...
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If the RAF work with the RAAF in Wedgetail software based spiral upgrades, and more specifically learn from the RAAF the methodology and culture regarding how the upgrades are envisaged, planned, acquisition procedures (very different) etc., they may find that they are on to a real winner. The acquisition bureaucrats at the MOD won't be impressed, but they aren't the ones at the sharp end. Boeing have after initial resistance, finally accepted this Wedgetail spiral upgrade development system and the beauty about it is that it is operator driven and by operator I mean the operators on the aircraft themselves, not some engineer and / or bureaucrat back in Canberra.
 
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