Posting this on behalf of AMPT10:
All suggestions greatfully appreciated. I'll let him know its double posted here.
All suggestions greatfully appreciated. I'll let him know its double posted here.
Recruitment Issues
- Thread starter gf0012-aust
- Start date
-Base more ships out of cities other than perth. WA is a heavily fished pool with the resource sector at the moment. Having crew living in Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane shouldn't be a huge problem for the navy. If your going to be away from your family and friends, work on the mines and get huge money and not get sea sick living in a tin can on water.
-increasingly flexable work conditions for reservists. Reserve should be a feeder for the regulars, afaik it does not operate that way. Perhaps a little clearer how the Navy reserve works.
-Get rid of man power. They drop the ball so often. And are generally irrating. They haven't improved things have they. My application is in there somewhere.
-clearer career paths for those who think about joining. People want to know there is a clear opporunity for them once they join. How quickly will this happen? What other benifits and opportunities are avalible to those who join?
-improved conditions. Ships like the Canberra and Hobart classes should be flag ships of modern design. Accomodation should be top notch, with cabins being less WWII bunker or youth hostel, more appartment. They have the space for them. The days of shoe boxes and coffins are over. Change peoples preconceptions of this.
-Targeting of graduates/students from tafe and university. Given most people sometimes leave these places or join them a bit lost make them easy picking grounds. Promises of cash, respect, making a difference, regular full time employment, overseas travel etc..
- What are we short on? Trades? Paint chippers? post graduate qualified thinkers. Sexy jobs or unsexy jobs. Personally I think the ADF has to come to some honest realisations regarding work, conditions and what people are willing to do in the future. Where are you going to find them, how are you going to get them interested?
-Sexy jobs. Advertise the sexy stuff. Whats the greatest job in the navy? Why does it cunger up images of people in narrow metal corridors with absestos mask moving huge cannon shells?
- What are you offering workers? Why would anyone want to sign with navy. The navy wants you, but why would you want the navy. People are motivated by self interest.
-increasingly flexable work conditions for reservists. Reserve should be a feeder for the regulars, afaik it does not operate that way. Perhaps a little clearer how the Navy reserve works.
-Get rid of man power. They drop the ball so often. And are generally irrating. They haven't improved things have they. My application is in there somewhere.
-clearer career paths for those who think about joining. People want to know there is a clear opporunity for them once they join. How quickly will this happen? What other benifits and opportunities are avalible to those who join?
-improved conditions. Ships like the Canberra and Hobart classes should be flag ships of modern design. Accomodation should be top notch, with cabins being less WWII bunker or youth hostel, more appartment. They have the space for them. The days of shoe boxes and coffins are over. Change peoples preconceptions of this.
-Targeting of graduates/students from tafe and university. Given most people sometimes leave these places or join them a bit lost make them easy picking grounds. Promises of cash, respect, making a difference, regular full time employment, overseas travel etc..
- What are we short on? Trades? Paint chippers? post graduate qualified thinkers. Sexy jobs or unsexy jobs. Personally I think the ADF has to come to some honest realisations regarding work, conditions and what people are willing to do in the future. Where are you going to find them, how are you going to get them interested?
-Sexy jobs. Advertise the sexy stuff. Whats the greatest job in the navy? Why does it cunger up images of people in narrow metal corridors with absestos mask moving huge cannon shells?
- What are you offering workers? Why would anyone want to sign with navy. The navy wants you, but why would you want the navy. People are motivated by self interest.
I think that the Navy needs to boost the reserves and the type of jobs that they can do. I would like nothing more that to join the Naval reserves but unless I already have a skill/trade the only option open to me is Clearance Divers, and at my age that is not an option (it’s a young mans game). For eample, I can join the Army reserves and do any role that you would find in the regular Army, however I am not even able to be a simple bosons mate in the navy .
Looking at how the Army is currently integrating the reserves to flesh out it’s units shows one path that is open to the Navy to help with it’s manpower issues.
Looking at how the Army is currently integrating the reserves to flesh out it’s units shows one path that is open to the Navy to help with it’s manpower issues.
Better use of the reserves certainly needs to be explored. The role of the naval reserve is certainly not clear to the general public, at least not in Tasmania. Hobart used to have a naval depot, HMAS Huon, which had an old Attack class patrol boat attached that was used for training. The boat was also able to deploy (short cruises admittedly) with a reservist crew. The patrol boat and the base were visible reminders that we actually had a reserve unit whereas some friends I was talking to recently were unaware that it is even possible to join the naval reserve in Hobart. Unfortunately the base was closed as an economy measure and reservists now train at the army barracks. Consequently they have an extremely low public profile.
I can't see why assets like some of the Huon class minehunters or Armidale class patrol boats could not be manned by reserve crews on a rotational basis, thus freeing up permanent personnel. Old Fremantle class patrol boats that are too clapped out for regular patrol work could be used for drill and occasional short cruises, perhaps supplementing customs and fisheries protection patrols. If the Fremantles are too worn out even for this role a few Bay class patrol boats, similar to those used by Customs, could perhaps be acquired for training.
I also think that reservists ought to be used to flesh out the crews of active warships. It is very noticeable when ships return from deployment and visit Hobart that their close range weapons, CIWS, Mini Typhoon, etc, have often been landed. Whilst this may be because the weapons are needed for rotation aboard ships being deployed to operational areas or for exercises, I suspect it is also made necessary by lack of personnel to man and maintain them. For example, when I saw HMAS Success a few years back it had 2 CIWS and several 40mm Bofors guns mounted. On its last visit it was completely devoid of weapons.
What sorts of bonuses are being planned as incentives to permanent naval personnel to re-enlist? The army has recently announced the first phase of a new retention bonus scheme (See Post 171, Australian Army Discussions and Updates in Land Forces). The navy certainly needs something to boost its permanent force. There has been a lot of discussion in this forum about a fourth AWD, etc, but the reality is that the RAN seems to be struggling to man the ships it already has.
Cheers
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1, Pay them more money for one. 2, Increase the educational benefits and opportunities for service personnel for another. 3, Pass laws giving military veterans preference points for civilian Government jobs after completing 10 or more years of service.
4, Increase the perks for those retiring after 20+ years of service. 5, Improve living conditions for sailors both on and off the ships.
6, You can always draft, but I know we Yanks would never draft again.
4, Increase the perks for those retiring after 20+ years of service. 5, Improve living conditions for sailors both on and off the ships.
6, You can always draft, but I know we Yanks would never draft again.
How about bringing back the beer/rum ration?
Definately think the reserves are a central part to the answer.
Unemployment rates are at record lows. Realistically, Navy as a second job (and second job levels are going up) opens up to a much bigger pool.
Definately think the reserves are a central part to the answer.
Unemployment rates are at record lows. Realistically, Navy as a second job (and second job levels are going up) opens up to a much bigger pool.
Increasing the size of the reserve and using reservists in better ways is an important part of the answer but the central part, IMO, has to be the retention of skilled permanent personnel. If we can't retain them in the permanent force then using and maintaining their skills in the reserves is the next best option.
Cheers
My sentiments exactly, e.g. DFR "amalgamating" (read cancelling) Information Sessions with JOES days. So if you're merely wish to ask them a few specific questions about becoming an officer, you have to get all your school reports since year 9, shine up your CV, fill out an endless medical form, and get two character references. Unbelievably irritating.
Every single navy ad I've seen has been for Seaman Officer, and they look like dorks (professional actors?), doing a dorky job.
Amen to getting rid of Manpower. The whole recruitment process is irritating and stunningly bureaucratic.
For example, they "amalgamated" (i.e. cancelled) Information Sessions and JOES Days at my local DFR, so when I tried to ask a few specific questions about becoming an officer I was told I couldn't, I had to begin the application process.
So this meant selecting three jobs I was interested in, giving my education and work history, getting all my school reports since year 9, two character references, and filling out an endless medical form. If I didn't, they wouldn't talk to me. All this time I'm hearing through word-of-mouth how desperate the navy is for people, and seeing advertisements for seaman officers on television. Unbelievable.
I thought the RAN's current advertisements were bad, moakley has posted one from the 80s on youtube, with an uncatchy "the pride of the fleet is you" chorus.
I think reserve forces will play a ever increasing role in the ADF. With the way things are economically, you simply make more money working privately and there is proberly better promotion prospects, and more flexable conditions.
This isn't a uniquely Australian problem, its nearly worldwide. Countries are significantly changing procurements due to manning issues. There has to be a conhesive and complete plan to deal with it.
This isn't a uniquely Australian problem, its nearly worldwide. Countries are significantly changing procurements due to manning issues. There has to be a conhesive and complete plan to deal with it.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
I have a few ideas on possible solutions to the recruitment/retention issue, as well as a few questions on the issue itself. Also, some of the ideas might already be in place and/or unworkable in an Australian context, if so, please let me know.
Questions first.
What is the nature of the recruitment/retention issue? Is it a difficult in meeting a target number of enlisted men/noncoms, or is there a problem in achieving numbers of officers. or both? Are there particular trades/MOS that need filling, or face projected shortfalls? Is the recruitment/retention issue of greater concern for Regulars or Reserves? Have there been job satisfaction surveys done on existing ADF/RAN personnel to determine why they stay in the service, or why they leave? Are polls done on the populace to determine the image ADF personnel have amongst the people?
Basically I'm interesting in knowing what attempts have been made to determine what can induce someone to join, or if already serving, stay in the service.
As for solutions, I think it's easier said than done, but basically, give the personnel what they want. Find ways to make service rewarding for personnel.
If the reason some don't join, or leave on completion of service is that it was dull, make it interesting. Granted, not everything can be made interesting, but if someone is assigned a dull duty, more rotation might ease that a bit.
Also, monetary compensation could work. Higher pay to compete with civilian jobs perhaps, or other schemes. Deferrment or payment of university tuition, this could be a possible perk for getting a term of service. This could be a program similar to the US Montgomery/GI Bill, where on completion of a tour of duty, the person has a certain amount of money available to pay for college (usually around US$40,000 unless it's been changed recently). Another tactic in terms of education, would be for Defence to make available to each person a certain amount of money to spend towards education on a monthly/quarterly/semester/yearly basis. Another possible scheme would be for serving personnel, or just discharged veterans to have access to government subsidized loans for housing.
Another possible tactic, at least for Reserve forces, would be to try routing more personnel who would be leaving the service into the Reserves. Possibly by changing the service period. The typical US period of enlistment had been a total of eight years, four in the Regular Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines, followed by four years in the Reserves.
An idea to draw additional enlisted personnel would be to check with young people looking to emigrate to Australia and become citizens. Offering qualified personnel (meet fitness & security reqs, etc.) the possibility of early citizenship in return for military/naval service. Something to think about at least.
-Cheers
Questions first.
What is the nature of the recruitment/retention issue? Is it a difficult in meeting a target number of enlisted men/noncoms, or is there a problem in achieving numbers of officers. or both? Are there particular trades/MOS that need filling, or face projected shortfalls? Is the recruitment/retention issue of greater concern for Regulars or Reserves? Have there been job satisfaction surveys done on existing ADF/RAN personnel to determine why they stay in the service, or why they leave? Are polls done on the populace to determine the image ADF personnel have amongst the people?
Basically I'm interesting in knowing what attempts have been made to determine what can induce someone to join, or if already serving, stay in the service.
As for solutions, I think it's easier said than done, but basically, give the personnel what they want. Find ways to make service rewarding for personnel.
If the reason some don't join, or leave on completion of service is that it was dull, make it interesting. Granted, not everything can be made interesting, but if someone is assigned a dull duty, more rotation might ease that a bit.
Also, monetary compensation could work. Higher pay to compete with civilian jobs perhaps, or other schemes. Deferrment or payment of university tuition, this could be a possible perk for getting a term of service. This could be a program similar to the US Montgomery/GI Bill, where on completion of a tour of duty, the person has a certain amount of money available to pay for college (usually around US$40,000 unless it's been changed recently). Another tactic in terms of education, would be for Defence to make available to each person a certain amount of money to spend towards education on a monthly/quarterly/semester/yearly basis. Another possible scheme would be for serving personnel, or just discharged veterans to have access to government subsidized loans for housing.
Another possible tactic, at least for Reserve forces, would be to try routing more personnel who would be leaving the service into the Reserves. Possibly by changing the service period. The typical US period of enlistment had been a total of eight years, four in the Regular Army/Navy/Air Force/Marines, followed by four years in the Reserves.
An idea to draw additional enlisted personnel would be to check with young people looking to emigrate to Australia and become citizens. Offering qualified personnel (meet fitness & security reqs, etc.) the possibility of early citizenship in return for military/naval service. Something to think about at least.
-Cheers
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #13
My last job in Fed Govt was as a State Director on the Exec of the DFR dissolution programme.
Part of the job involved assessing all the suitable applicant companies who wanted to take up DFR on the new outsourced model.
Manpower was regarded as the least suitable. They got the job because the Fed Govt didn't want one vendor to succeed, and also didn't want a consortium of ex DFR staff to get the job either. The next equiv placegetter didn't have critical mass, and so could not cover the spread, or did not have enough ex mil staff who were culturally aware of ADF requirements.
manpower got it because they were the last man standing.
the most suitable candidate was a GBE who had ex-mil staff (and some with ex DFR experience) available in all states, had over 230 locations avail as recruitment officers and already had exp on mil projects. - Manpower had none of that. On KPI's alone they should have been nailed on performance after the first year, but at that stage there was no one else able to step into the breech (NPI).
Its been a disaster ever since.
DoC_FouALieR
New Member
Yes, that's a good idea. Give people who join a formation so that they can have the equivalent degrees in the civilian.
abramsteve
New Member
Give it more time. IMO over the next decade recruitment issues will lessen. Its easy to say just increase the pay, the standard of living and advertise the great jobs, but that doesnt mean it will happen over night.
The current recruitment drive has only been around for the last 5 years or so. Give it more time to attract the kids who have grown up with a 'sexy' looking job in the ADF in mind, who are only now starting to leave school and look towards their careers.
Thats not to say that campaigning cant be improved. Advertise more of the trades. Target 16 to 17 year olds who want to leave school, tell them thats fine, that theres a trade for them in the Navy. Make that the focus of the recruitment drive not just a side.
IMO its also more an education myth thats causing problems, not just for the ADF, but for trades in general. Theres way to much focus in schools on how the only way to success is the completion of year 12 and further education. Fight this, and trust me (I know personaly) its not hard to inspire a 17 year old to want to leave school and get a real job, and thats half the battle won.
The current recruitment drive has only been around for the last 5 years or so. Give it more time to attract the kids who have grown up with a 'sexy' looking job in the ADF in mind, who are only now starting to leave school and look towards their careers.
Thats not to say that campaigning cant be improved. Advertise more of the trades. Target 16 to 17 year olds who want to leave school, tell them thats fine, that theres a trade for them in the Navy. Make that the focus of the recruitment drive not just a side.
IMO its also more an education myth thats causing problems, not just for the ADF, but for trades in general. Theres way to much focus in schools on how the only way to success is the completion of year 12 and further education. Fight this, and trust me (I know personaly) its not hard to inspire a 17 year old to want to leave school and get a real job, and thats half the battle won.
This is a major problem at the moment, and will get worse if not addressed now.
I think one approach may be to target the parents of school leavers. Convince mum and dad that the defence force is a great career for little Johnny /Mary.
Make ads more of a "thank you aussie serviceman!" type warm and fuzzy adds. Get a higher profile for the Aussie digger/sailor/airman.
Go back to the 3 and 6 year contracts with incentives to re-sighn for 6 years.
Some mining companies sell the house that the miners have rented for really low prices....minus the rent paid over the period that they stayed with the company. Qualifying periods of course....lets say 12 years....might as well stay for 20!
I think one approach may be to target the parents of school leavers. Convince mum and dad that the defence force is a great career for little Johnny /Mary.
Make ads more of a "thank you aussie serviceman!" type warm and fuzzy adds. Get a higher profile for the Aussie digger/sailor/airman.
Go back to the 3 and 6 year contracts with incentives to re-sighn for 6 years.
Some mining companies sell the house that the miners have rented for really low prices....minus the rent paid over the period that they stayed with the company. Qualifying periods of course....lets say 12 years....might as well stay for 20!
An article in The Australian Newspaper about problems manning the submarine force highlights some of the recruitment issues facing the RAN and outlines some of the steps that are being taken and/or considered to address the retention issue.
With only half the submarine force able to be fully crewed, this is unquestionably a very serious issue for the RAN.
Cheers
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21478658-31477,00.html
With only half the submarine force able to be fully crewed, this is unquestionably a very serious issue for the RAN.
Cheers
Not only do i completly agree, the part about manpower being ditched is right on the mark, i'm guessing my application might be next to yours, somewhere in the Queensland office knowing their abilities.
A good point is the Reserve Fleet of sorts, with reservists manning Minor War vessels such as Patrol boats, survey ships or Landing craft, but on a replacement bases, even to give crews 3-4 weeks holiday a year to coincide with Army reserve Excercises. If Northen Reserve bases increased co-operation you could see Reserve soldiers being deployed from Reserve manned Landing craft...
One thing that has not been considered is the influence of television. The upcoming series Sea patrol on Nine, may have a good impact on numbers for those wanting to join the RAN. The Navy appears to have seen this as the first ep has HMAS Kanimbla sailing along side the Fremantle class along with helo fly over. If people saw the job that service personel did it may entice them to join.
VexxSkyRider
New Member
What we need to do is... everything.
More pay. Nobody works for free and working at sea is a notoriously hard job and with convenient, clean and safe civilian jobs why would any one join the navy?
Advertise. Corporations have been doing it for years and it seems to work. US forces do it. From what I've heard you can hardly sit back and relax without the Marines pounding down your door, the Air Force is constantly pestering you over the phone, the phrase "Join the US army" is synonymous with your favourite website, US Navy posters cover every corner of your school or university. And make sure it's the good parts. However important marching and drill is, it is not a very flash thing to impress potential recruits with. Massive guns and lightning fast aircraft impress any civilian.
More Defence funding. This is the most touchy issue. No country has money to spare but Defence is really important. Take money away from something unimportant like Transport or Indigenous Affairs (sorry but its true). Welfare could stand to take a hit too.
Better conditions. Working on a ship couldn't be harder but it could be easier. I know there is hardly any space to spare but nobody wants to live in a steel matchbox. Reserves definitely need better conditions (this isn't my area of expertise). It is a part time job after all. Maybe relax hair standards... Not too much (we still need some discipline) particularly for reserves.
More benefits. A ton of money can only go so far. What about better educational opportunities? Give them free entrance to university in exchange for a tour of duty. Give them high quality qualifications so they can get a good job once they leave the force.
Join the Navy. I see a lot of people complaining about the government and half arsed Department of Defence but how many sailors are in here?
Not many. I for one am joining the navy once I leave school. I am even vaguely considering leaving school earlier (still working that one out).
I know this is pretty much what everyone else said but I had to put it in my words. Join the Navy.
More pay. Nobody works for free and working at sea is a notoriously hard job and with convenient, clean and safe civilian jobs why would any one join the navy?
Advertise. Corporations have been doing it for years and it seems to work. US forces do it. From what I've heard you can hardly sit back and relax without the Marines pounding down your door, the Air Force is constantly pestering you over the phone, the phrase "Join the US army" is synonymous with your favourite website, US Navy posters cover every corner of your school or university. And make sure it's the good parts. However important marching and drill is, it is not a very flash thing to impress potential recruits with. Massive guns and lightning fast aircraft impress any civilian.
More Defence funding. This is the most touchy issue. No country has money to spare but Defence is really important. Take money away from something unimportant like Transport or Indigenous Affairs (sorry but its true). Welfare could stand to take a hit too.
Better conditions. Working on a ship couldn't be harder but it could be easier. I know there is hardly any space to spare but nobody wants to live in a steel matchbox. Reserves definitely need better conditions (this isn't my area of expertise). It is a part time job after all. Maybe relax hair standards... Not too much (we still need some discipline) particularly for reserves.
More benefits. A ton of money can only go so far. What about better educational opportunities? Give them free entrance to university in exchange for a tour of duty. Give them high quality qualifications so they can get a good job once they leave the force.
Join the Navy. I see a lot of people complaining about the government and half arsed Department of Defence but how many sailors are in here?
Not many. I for one am joining the navy once I leave school. I am even vaguely considering leaving school earlier (still working that one out).
I know this is pretty much what everyone else said but I had to put it in my words. Join the Navy.
abramsteve
New Member
Slightly Off topic, but I saw a new army add last night. Thought it was really well done. The quality of defence advertising is certainly very high, far better than that of the SA police force for example. Perhaps they need to pump it out more often?