Rebuilding a smaller mid sized Navy

Sea Toby

New Member
The Aussies worry it can take a week or more to counter a landing on their northwest coast, far from Perth and Sydney. Tasmania has a right to worry when the ADF had so much difficulty with East Timor... Newfoundland and Vancouver Islands should worry about Canada's sea lift capabilities too, not to mention all of those Arctic islands off Canada's northern coast..I can't imagine anything being more important for Canada's defense forces other than sea lift and replenishment ships at the moment outside of their air force...

Its not WWII anymore and the Cold War has passed. Their ASW navy today appears misguided and needs a new direction and focus... Japan and South Korea have invested in sea lift recently; Italy, Spain, France, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom have invested in sea lift as well. Germany is the largest European nation which hasn't invested much in sea lift lately, and should along with several other European nations, if only to match Denmark's capability...
 

Locarnus

New Member
Its not WWII anymore and the Cold War has passed. Their ASW navy today appears misguided and needs a new direction and focus... Japan and South Korea have invested in sea lift recently; Italy, Spain, France, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom have invested in sea lift as well. Germany is the largest European nation which hasn't invested much in sea lift lately, and should along with several other European nations, if only to match Denmark's capability...
After some experiences in the last century the overwhelming majority of germans is now fine with protecting what they have, and only few still want to protect what they want to have against the current owners.
Given the german demographic and budgetary problems, even suggesting real expeditionary capabilities would be political suicide.
And an increasing proportion of the public does not understand for what more than a token military is good for, considering the real world current threat matrix of Germany (ie no threat available, please come back later or fabricate some yourself out of thin air).
Seriously the main reason for the conscript army still existing (just recently scaled back again) is the "irreplacable" (ie very cheap) civil work of the draft dodgers ;) .
So neither the money nor the public support to play around with the rest of the gang.

And the traditional german approach for the humanitarian aid is some huge check (usability of the money not relevant) along with private/specialized orgs.


Back on topic:

Unless someone is after a half and half land grab would have thought any serious move on Canada would involve nukes. Perhaps Canada should wait and see if Russia gets to build it's first Mistral and get one cheaper. May well have the same or similar electronic systems as the original.
Even half half is impossible to accept for US. Though I cant think of any gov/nation dumb enough to even consider something against Canadian homeland, given the current and foreseeable military power distribution there wouldnt be anything left, with or without nukes.
 

Chrisious

New Member
Perhaps it is only a matter of perception, though no one will be stepping on UK soil without the risk of being incinerated first (if that makes any sense). The government would have a hard time explaining to the public why it sat on its hands whilst the British public got turned over.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

The smaller Mistral 140 and 160 have 5 helo spots each w up to 750 troops carriage (see official brochure from DCNS).

Its a question of helo force size. If one wants to bring more helos, then smaller and more numerous mistrals 140/160s with more helo spots and helos makes sense.

The LPDs carry less helos (but approx the same number of troops per tonnage). Cost-wise, assuming equal crew complement, its likely cheaper to operate LPDs rather than LHDs due to the fewer helos. If one faces budget constraint, then the LPDs may be a more appropriate choice.

Having said that, the trend appears to be towards LHDs nowadays (need to move the atk helo force as well). With both Spain and France offering locally built ships, I guess it could be attractive to Canada. Don't recall seeing any atk helos though and there's more than enough cyclone carrying platforms...
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The Aussies worry it can take a week or more to counter a landing on their northwest coast, far from Perth and Sydney. Tasmania has a right to worry when the ADF had so much difficulty with East Timor... Newfoundland and Vancouver Islands should worry about Canada's sea lift capabilities too, not to mention all of those Arctic islands off Canada's northern coast..I can't imagine anything being more important for Canada's defense forces other than sea lift and replenishment ships at the moment outside of their air force...

Its not WWII anymore and the Cold War has passed. Their ASW navy today appears misguided and needs a new direction and focus... Japan and South Korea have invested in sea lift recently; Italy, Spain, France, the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom have invested in sea lift as well. Germany is the largest European nation which hasn't invested much in sea lift lately, and should along with several other European nations, if only to match Denmark's capability...
I agree that Canada does not necessarily need specialized ASW vessels, however assuming they get GP frigates/destroyers, they certainly should be capable ASW platforms. Yes, the Cold War threat of vast packs of Red attack boats from the Soviet Union is a thing of the past. However, a number of nations around the world are getting or expanding their submarine fleets. As such, Canadian vessels could potentially face a sub threat in home waters, depending on the who and what of the scenario. It is also possible that there could be a submarine threat faced abroad when the vessel(s) are acting in Canada's national interest.

For example, suppose L'il Kim of North Korea decided that enough was enough and he would settle matters with South Korea, that would be a matter of interest to Canada. Aside from all the issues relating to the involvement of the UN in any potential conflict, there is also the not so litter matter of South Korea being one of Canada's trading partners. Which means that shipping to and/or from Canada (in Canadian hulls or not) could be threatened, which leads to a potential need for patrolling and escorts by Canadian vessels, a possible sub threat, etc.

As I have raised repeatedly at time in various other threads, particularly those involving the NZDF, a military/navy exists to protect the hosting country, and its issues. This means that relevant defence matters exist not only within the landmass, airspace and home waters of the country, but also elsewhere in the world.

Canada needs an overall military capable of defending the air and sea approaches to Canada, as well as being able to meet treaty obligations, maintain goodwill, and also act in the interests of Canada. If Canada was only interested in being able to perform EEZ, fishery and customs patrolling, as well as immigration enforcement, than a large ice-reinforced OPV would likely suffice. However, Canada also has to face the prospect that a time may come where shots have to be fired again in an actual war, which would require something more capable than what amounts to a police boat.

-Cheers
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Can you expand on this? What is being done with them?

AFAIK they're fairly new, & could be sold to another navy, if not wanted.
I will need to do some digging to find where I can across the reports of issues with them. Unfortunately due to my schedule I might not be able to do so for a few weeks. Please remind me if I have not either posted or PM'd it to you.

As I recall it though, the Kingston-class vessels were considered "wet" boats, in that due to their relatively low displacement (~960 tons full load), and small dimensions (L:55 m; B: 11 m; D:3.4 m) they are "interesting" to be aboard during rough seas. As I understood it, the Kingston's were to fufill a few different roles within Maritime Command, being able to act as training and MCM vessels as well as covering some EEZ/constabulary patrolling. In some respects, the patrolling role is similar to that undertaken by River-class OPV's in service with the RN, both vessels actually having similar cruising ranges. The difference here though is that the a River-class OPV has greater cruising speed, nearly twice the displacement, and is ~50% greater in length. I admit that I am not a mariner, but my understanding is that the waters in the Atlantic north of Scotland, as well as in the south around the Falkland Islands (where HMS Clyde is based) are similar to those around the western and eastern reaches of Canada. This suggests to me that someone aboard a Kingston-class is going to get worn out by the behavior of the vessel at sea faster than if they were aboard a larger vessel in the same sea conditions.

Here is one of the indicators I have come across suggesting issues with the Kingston-class, or at least the way Canada has been attempting to utilize them. I will continue to look for more of them.

Incidentally, it is worth noting that Canada appears to have attempted to attach the mission requirements of an OPV and an IPV onto that of a vessel already designed as an MCM, and ended up with something which was not quite any of the three.

-Cheers
 

Locarnus

New Member
Regarding the threat to homeland, I agree that this cant be ruled out somewhen in the future, thus it is necessary to maintain some experience in handling the countermeasures, like real warships.
But given the foreseeable future no such threat is on the radar anywhere, and given the specifc circumstances (US next door, large oceans around) such a threat would be recognizable well ahead because of the buildup time. So more than maintaining some experience is just a political decision, not one based on military needs.

About the trade by sea (which is no doubt essential for Canada) protection, the spots where this protection would take place are far away from the homeland. The US with its global deployments and similar trade lanes is closer to the spot and would handle them anyway long before Canada could send something in.
With respect to your North Korea example, their naval and air capabilities after a friendly US visit would be, ahem, rather limited. And this would be the case long before a Canadian ship has sailed halfway to the spot.
If you live with someone who is a much more capable cook, and who also loves cooking, you dont cook half the time just for parity, but would rather do the dishes or so and leave the cooking to the other person (with small exceptions maybe).
Its called comparative advantage, aka the basis of trade.

To maintain experience and for some friendship obligations I would then correct my 2-3 frigates proposition upwards to 2 in the west (Asia and Australia/New Zealand allies) and 2 in the east. Possible even one more in the east because of the LHD. So a total of 4 -5 frigates.

Comparing it with the existing warship fleet composition this would trade in 12 frigates, 3 destroyers and 4(3 actual) subs for 4-5 frigates a ~25' t LHD and a small but helo capable mothership for abroad patrol duty (pirates, terrorists, aso).
It would leave plenty of room (budget, manpower) for a massive increase in patrol vessels for the new northwestern passage, as well as budget to replace the Kingstons with such a specifically designed patrol vessel as well (with few of them gaining experience along with the mothership abroad). The replacement of the replenishment vessels I take as set anyway (the money for that would be certainly there).

For the retainment of sub experience I would suggest some joint experience retainment programm with nations facing a similar situation or maybe more actual need for subs (eg Australia, UK or so). I dont see a need for it, but given the previously stated restructuring there would be most likely some money left and experience is the one thing you cant built within short notice.

EDIT: The result would be a navy much better suited for the actual needs (LHD, mothership, patrol vessels), while retaining the experience for warfare against a real opponent and thus the ability to readjust in reasonably short time (takes only few years to build a number of subs/frigates).
 
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I know this is rather unconventional but what would be the downside of spending all your available cash on one awesome super ship? $35 Billion Canadian could get something amazing and apart from the downsides of only being in one place at once which can be kind of mitigated to limiting yourself to one war at a time and the danger of if it sinks your screwed but risk and reward and all that.
Park a $35 Billion super ship on someone's shore and they will take notice.
 

Belesari

New Member
I know this is rather unconventional but what would be the downside of spending all your available cash on one awesome super ship? $35 Billion Canadian could get something amazing and apart from the downsides of only being in one place at once which can be kind of mitigated to limiting yourself to one war at a time and the danger of if it sinks your screwed but risk and reward and all that.
Park a $35 Billion super ship on someone's shore and they will take notice.
1 Super ship doesnt work. For one ALL ships have to regularly undergo maintanence. For another Canada needs to protect probably the most barren shoreline in the world. You could mount an invasion or operation in canada without coming within 200 miles of a city.

Your average american nimitz cost around 5 billion over 5 yrs...thats just the ship.

If you cant protect your shoreline as a country than all your reason count as crap.
 

Locarnus

New Member
From the Royal New Zealand Navy thread, post 1881:

Title: Not strictly RNZN, but closely related...

Shipbuilding Strategy - NSPS Options - Sovereignty Patrol - Offshore Patrol Vessels - Arctic Icebreakers - CASR Modest Proposal - Canadian American Strategic Review - AOPS Icebreaker - Arctic Sovereignty - Canadian EEZs - Naval Patrols - Corvettes an

Interesting article discussing how Aker PV85 (ie: Otago & Wellington) type may fit into a Canadian context. Shows same type dressed up as unarmed CCG & RCN 'Corvette' (with 40mm main gun).

p.s. Their footnote #7 is clearly mistaken - no 'extra' AW109.
An interesting article about the Canadian needs, proposing a division between ice-breaker and normal OPV. The normal OPV to be a corvette size ship, with a ~ 3t helo and some small armament (25mm or maybe a little bigger).
 

moahunter

Banned Member
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Canada to build two Joint Supply Ships - $2.6 billion

Joint Support Ships are used primarily to supply fuel, ammunition, spare parts, food, and water. In Canada, the ships will allow the navy to be deployed for longer periods of time — a “critical asset to operations in the North,” said Mr. MacKay.

They will also support deployed ships overseas, and increase the navy’s responsiveness to disasters and humanitarian crises such as Haiti, he said.

The government originally announced a plan to buy three ships but it was put on hold in 2008 after bids were deemed too expensive.

The new ships would replace Canada’s 40-year-old supply vessels.
The JSS will also provide a home base for the maintenance and operation of helicopters, a limited sealift capability, and logistics support to forces deployed ashore, the government said. It would be capable of carrying army vehicles and would likely house a hospital.

Read more: Canada to build two Joint Support Ships
 

rip

New Member
I humbly think that the discussion about Canadian naval defense priorities so far is completely wrong. You are talking about different ships and their capacities and not the real challenges to Canadian sovereignty as the Canadian’s currently think of their territorial borders and securing their integrity in to the future.

First to the Pacific Ocean, nobody is going to realistically screw with Canada and its lines of communication at this point because it is not even practical for some outside foreign power to do so, without at the same time equally screwing with the USA ’S lines of communication (think of the Lusitania). That kind of action would have consequences that could easily rise far above any possible advantage that some foreign power might think they would gain from those actions.

On the Atlantic side they are a little bit more exposed but Canada ’s many trading partners would certainly come to its aid if it were to be threatened on that side of the continent. This is not to say, that Canada dose not need a real military presence on its West and East coasts to remain a creatable free independent nation state in the eyes of both itself and the world. It is to say that they are not Canada’s main concern.

The real security challenge for Canada lies to its North and it comes in many forms. I hate to go all Geopolitical on you guys but the most important security problem Canada might have in its future comes from the Artic. In 1925, based upon the Sector Principle, Canada became the first country to extend its boundaries all the way northward to the North Pole, even to unexplored islands not connected to its land mass. The sector principle is not, I repeat for clarity is not, a universally recognized method of claming lands that it has not in fact discovered, occupied, mapped, effectively and continually policed, or dose it have effective continuous control. The fact that nobody else has done so in this area has no bearing on the issue whatsoever. These are facts that no reasonable person can dispute. No matter how often Canada has tried to affirm that claim in the past. Canada as it is currently constituted is the second largest country on earth with a fairly small population for its great size. Most of that territory is not effectively occupied at the present time.

Up until now this has not lead to direct confrontations with any significant power simply because of the harsh, almost unlivable conditions found in this part of the world, coupled with the lack of suitable technology and or will to overcome those harsh conditions. This is now changing. I do not know if the environment in that part of the world is significantly changing for the better or not. But many people seem to believe that it is. Sometimes perceptions become facts when enough people believe in them. Regardless, the technology is how becoming available to live and more importantly exploit the possible rich resources within this vast area. A truly vast area where few people live.

A Little history lesson, Canada only succeeded in reaching the Pacific Ocean with its small population and claming the right to hold on to all the territory from that ocean is because it even before settlers arrived upon the seen, the government secured the land militarily and far more importantly, civilly. They brought law and order, secured lines of communication, and generally kept the peace, (at first just between the native tribes). They did this when nobody else cared enough to bother. In so doing it demonstrated through acts of responsibility, their legitimate right to govern those lands. The sine posts of effective governmental control are many and most of them are not military. Thank you RCM.

Now I am an American, not a Canadian so feel free to think I am biased but we on this side of the border like the idea of having a neighbor where we have no danger of going to war with. And with the, The north American Free Trade Agreement there is no reason for us to dispute Candia’s current claim as long as, the resources up there in the far north, whatever they may be, are exploited when and where the weather and or technology make them cost effectively to be recoverable. As long as we have fair access to them through the mechanism of the open and fair market we are satisfied. Most of the world will feel the same but not necessarily all.

Besides the pushy Russians we all know about, don’t discount the possibility of the Chinese discovering in some forgotten lost archive that a Chinese Junk sailed up that way in the 14th century and surprise, discovered they were the first one’s to see it. Thus they have first clam. That is exactly the same reasoning they are making for the Spratly Islands. Remember in the world of the future many things are uncertain, their will be new players and they may be hungry. Could you correctly predict the current geopolitical situation forty years ago?

If the resources in the Artic are conceived by many to be vital to the prosperity of the many various populations of the world, sometime in the next hundred years or so and if Canada is, correctly or not, seen as not making those resources available to those populations that deem they need them, the theory of the (Sector Principle) may quickly fall out of favor on the world stage. Many of Canada ’s allies may be less inclined to support its interests under these perceptions.

The best course of action for Candia is its historical one. First bring Law and Order to the area before it is really required. Establish secure lines of communication, navigation, and safety before they really needed or even before their costs can even be justified. Maybe even using that current bugaboo; of preserving the fragile environment and its innocent living creatures, if that is what it takes to get the job done. Personally I think that is a bag of crap but we are talking politics here not a use of the power of reason.

As to establishing recognized national authority, what are the naval implications? First the Artic sea’s is primary a theater of military operation of the submarine, submarines of both kinds depending on how much land support Canada is willing to provide up north to support Subs. Subs are the best platform suited to operate in these waters regardless if the expected weather change come as predicted or not. Second, because of the distances involved over this vast territory, air power will be of the most important aspect of exerting national control in times of military conflict. But the best possible use of military power is when the obvious presents of credible assets create a sufficient deterrents and sense of recognized occupation that it is never has to be uses at all. Both submarines and aircraft with all their destructive power are poor political tools in demonstrating national authority and occupation in this region of the world. Otherwise you are not living there, your are just visiting.

What the Canadian Navy needs beside seven to eight submarines and sufficient air power of all types to reach, all of their vast domain, is four to five especially designed and built armed Icebreakers. If these ships are put under the flag of the coastguard or not it makes no difference politically in their effect. The ideal ship design with have the same weapons load out as the Norway’s Fridtjof Nansen class frigate butt would be 50% larger. It would have space for four helicopters and an enclosed moon pool. The helicopters would normally be one large cargo hauler and 2 search and rescue types but in time of war they would be replaced with two ant-submarine and two land attack gunship military models. Under normal conditions the towed sonar of the Fridtjof Nansen class would be replaces with a similar compatible civilian model designed for sea floor mapping and other artic research (talk to the fish) but could be easily be swapped out for the active/passive military model. Hull mounted sonar and icebreakers do not mix. The moon pool would normally be used to employ remote under water research vehicles that could also be used for salvage and recovery as well as for exploration but ant-submarine/minesweeping models are in the works and will soon become availed and they too could be swapped out in times of possible threat. You can also fire torpedoes (the larger wire-guided kinds used in submarines from a single fixed tube in cooperation with UWRV or smaller self homing kinds usually found on surface ships) from the moon pool even in ice bound conditions.

Enough top side space would need to be designated and left preserved for a rack of Harpoon missiles or something similar and for decoys (shaft and flare launchers), freeing up the small VLS cells for more missiles than it would normally need to carry as a coastguard vessel, saving a lot of money but again the added weapons would only be installed unless their was a perceived threat. Though the capacity to quickly and easily upgrade the armament of this ship would be plainly visible to all and a good selling point, it is in itself a non-threatening act. What could be better that, a credible weapons platform that has many peacetime functions at far less expense, but can quickly be upgraded if it is really needed? This platform would have a thirty year working life and is a good all around investment.

Even though the combat power of this proposed design is only slightly above that of a modern corvette, its primary functions of icebreaking, navigation, search and rescue, scientific research, mapping, and maritime patrol fulfill all of the political, civil, and military needs that the sovereign nation of Canada require for maintaining it territorial integrity in this region. Of course Canada will still need a few patrol and ASW frigates as well as necessary supporting axillaries but if the navy has enough assets to cover its Artic, the rest of its cost lines are well taken care of.

Two more things, first the US coastguard needs three of these same type icebreakers (we would change the gun to the new coastguard standard but it has similar foot print) and we need it for many of the same reasons the Canadian’s do. The icebreakers we now have are getting very old. Maybe we could do a deal.

And number two, in the Artic Ocean , bottom dwelling magnetic mines planted in the shallow water, narrow channel, ice restricted passages of the far North, will be the terror weapon or choice and if you do not have effective anti-mine clearing capacity that reliably works under the Artic environmental conditions you are totally screwed no matter what else you do.
 
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moahunter

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #53
^military forces aren't just about defending your territory though, and in Canada's case, defending the arctic. Sure, that's important (and I agree some subs would help, but maybe just 3 or 4 like the new British class), but a big part of Canada's navies role is in international hot spots on mission with Nato, including anti-pirate patrols, not to mention support for Canadian expeditionary forces, or relief in humanitarian situations. The navy would get pretty disheartened if all it did was sail around icebergs all the time, yes Canada needs more capability at that, but it needs other flag flying / international hot spot capability too.
 

rip

New Member
^military forces aren't just about defending your territory though, and in Canada's case, defending the arctic. Sure, that's important (and I agree some subs would help, but maybe just 3 or 4 like the new British class), but a big part of Canada's navies role is in international hot spots on mission with Nato, including anti-pirate patrols, not to mention support for Canadian expeditionary forces, or relief in humanitarian situations. The navy would get pretty disheartened if all it did was sail around icebergs all the time, yes Canada needs more capability at that, but it needs other flag flying / international hot spot capability too.
As to international missions I am not quaffed to say. That is a political decision and we can assume that those decisions will change, from time to time, with the change of governments. But the need to be able to defend your borders is not usually considered to be a political option. This is not the kind of political option that changes with the comings and goings of different governmental administrations. Because each government has to live with the military force decisions which were made by their predecessors they need to be far looking. Sometimes a Government is settled with decisions that were made many years before and under different circumstances, which they must then face unprepared. So based upon my admittedly biases value system the nation comes first. At least if really believe in to begin with. Some people don’t believe in the primacy of that nation state anymore. They think instead that other institutions are now in the process of taking its place. We will see if that works out.

As to the issue, it just wouldn’t be as much fun to play with ice burgs and it would be with real life Pirates? I guess we are just operating from a different mental space as what the military structure of a nation is meant to do.
 

moahunter

Banned Member
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As to the issue, it just wouldn’t be as much fun to play with ice burgs and it would be with real life Pirates? I guess we are just operating from a different mental space as what the military structure of a nation is meant to do.
I guess so I mean, imagine if the US decided the only purpose for the military was to defend its borders? Overnight, you could disband the Army, marines and air force (aside from the missile arm) entirely, leaving the job to the national guard and a significantly smaller navy, which would still likely outmatch any military attacking the U.S.
 

rip

New Member
I guess so I mean, imagine if the US decided the only purpose for the military was to defend its borders? Overnight, you could disband the Army, marines and air force (aside from the missile arm) entirely, leaving the job to the national guard and a significantly smaller navy, which would still likely outmatch any military attacking the U.S.
I do not want to get off topic. The topic is what are the best options for Canada to rebuild its navy. As to the roll Canada wishes to pursue on the word stage, as a non Canadian I think it is inappropriate for me to join in that internal political debate. I would like to point out however, that the ship I proposed in my earlier entry is a general purpose long range vessel capable of sustained independent operations with added special functions, of securing navigation and with highly enhanced search and rescue. Also because of the unique design of their hulls, Icebreakers are much harder to sink or damage than a typical modern combatant. Because an Icebreaker has to rise high up on its keel to crush the ice below it to clear a path through an ice flow, the keel must be able to support the wait of the entire ship. This ability makes it far less vulnerable to the bubble jet phenomena used by modern torpedoes and some types of mines than are standard combat vessels. Its hull is also much thicker on its sides making it less vulnerable to direct contact explosives delivered by any other miens like suicide small attack boats attacks of bump and go that might happen if the ship was involved in a boarding incident. Their are disadvantages I know as well, for its size and wait it speed will be some what slower and the costs of its construction, fuel, and the number of personal bill will be higher but all in all I think its a good choice.
 

Future Fleet

New Member
Future Canadian Navy

16 Visby Corvettes for coastal patrols (Atlantic and Pacific)

15 Type 214 SSKs (or the new 216 submarines) replacing Victoria class for coastal defence patrols, foreign intelligence gathering, Arctic operations, etc)

2 Virginia class SSNs for Arctic patrol / long range operations

2 JSS modified Berlin class replenishment ships (1 Pacific, 1 Atlantic and maybe some V-22s on board)

4 Absalon command frigates (2 Pacific, 2 Atlantic as command ships, escort for JSS)

UAV recon for Pacific, Atlantic, and Arctic and ship launched (will also replace CP-140 Aurora). Coast guard and Canadian forces should determine how many and where they are best stationed.

3 Polar Ice Breakers for Coast guard - no need to be military ships.
Canada is better to put itself forward regulating lanes, bringing scientists
on board, and focusing on search and rescue with its Arctic surface fleet
while the SSNs and SSKs doing the real patrolling under the water. Just
need to have a surface presence of some kind.

Halifax frigates - sell off

Our international involvement around the world in the last 10 years has done nothing to stop Russia from beginning to testing our defences cold war style again. Even the allies we are fighting alongside question the legitimacy of our northern border.

The Canada First plan speaks of international operations, but it should be redefined into a peace keeping force (with clear mandate for use of force when needed), and disaster response. Specializing in disaster relief response with hospital modules on the Absalons, Berlin class, and the C-17 Globemasters gives a clear mandate to future procurement to avoid lack of focus.

While I'm at it, dump the Leopard tanks (impressive though they are) and replace them with proper tracked armoured cars like the Puma or the CV-90. Navy can fit more of IFVs on the Absalons and Berlin class ships than heavy tanks too.
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
16 Visby Corvettes for coastal patrols (Atlantic and Pacific)

15 Type 214 SSKs (or the new 216 submarines) replacing Victoria class for coastal defence patrols, foreign intelligence gathering, Arctic operations, etc)

2 Virginia class SSNs for Arctic patrol / long range operations

2 JSS modified Berlin class replenishment ships (1 Pacific, 1 Atlantic and maybe some V-22s on board)

4 Absalon command frigates (2 Pacific, 2 Atlantic as command ships, escort for JSS)

UAV recon for Pacific, Atlantic, and Arctic and ship launched (will also replace CP-140 Aurora). Coast guard and Canadian forces should determine how many and where they are best stationed.

3 Polar Ice Breakers for Coast guard - no need to be military ships.
Canada is better to put itself forward regulating lanes, bringing scientists
on board, and focusing on search and rescue with its Arctic surface fleet
while the SSNs and SSKs doing the real patrolling under the water. Just
need to have a surface presence of some kind.

Halifax frigates - sell off

Our international involvement around the world in the last 10 years has done nothing to stop Russia from beginning to testing our defences cold war style again. Even the allies we are fighting alongside question the legitimacy of our northern border.

The Canada First plan speaks of international operations, but it should be redefined into a peace keeping force (with clear mandate for use of force when needed), and disaster response. Specializing in disaster relief response with hospital modules on the Absalons, Berlin class, and the C-17 Globemasters gives a clear mandate to future procurement to avoid lack of focus.

While I'm at it, dump the Leopard tanks (impressive though they are) and replace them with proper tracked armoured cars like the Puma or the CV-90. Navy can fit more of IFVs on the Absalons and Berlin class ships than heavy tanks too.
Interesting ideas for a fleet. Rather impractical IMO, but interesting all the same.

I will start with the submarines. Having a total of 17 subs would essentially mean that half the RCN combat strength would be in subs. I seriously doubt that the RCN could support such a large sub programme in terms of raw numbers outside of wartime, nevermind as a percentage of the total force. Countries which maintain a 'real' submarine force have found that not all naval personnel are able to serve aboard subs, from RAN and USN numbers, it appears that personnel serving aboard subs amounts to ~2 - 3% of naval personnel. Then there is the small matter of whether or not that many subs could meet the RCN's service needs. Subs themselves are interdiction, strike and ISR assets. In terms of operations they essentially operate under wartime conditions, even in peace time. As such, they are less than useful patrol assets, since unless one is willing to fire a torpedoe to sink a target, they cannot conduct boarding, SAR or other patrolling functions without revealing their position.. It is also questionable if the RCN/Canada would wish to move to operating a nuclear-powered vessel like a Viriginia-class SSN, if the US was even willing/able to sell one to Canada. It is also questionable whether or not a Type 214 SSK would be suitable for Canadian operations. As has been mentioned in the RAN thread, Australian and Japanese sub operations are the most like those Canada would likely be conducting, long-ranged and deep diving patrols, as well as needing to be able to engage nuclear-powered subs and their respective power outputs. By contrast, European subs are generally designed for smaller, shallower bodies of water like the Baltic and/or Med vs. the North Atlantic or Northern Pacific Oceans.

Next, onto having 16 Visby-class FSG's in the RCN surface fleet. While such vessels are good for Sweden, being small, fast, and hard hitting for their size, I have serious doubts that they would really be useful for the RCN. One must remember that the Visby-class was designed to meet the service needs of the Royal Swedish Navy, which operates in the littoral waters of the Baltic Sea and also has a significantly smaller coastline to patrol as well as territorial water and EEZ. I strongly suspect that the Visby-class FSG would not be up to operating for any length of time in the North Atlantic or Northern Pacific.

Now for the idea of 2 JSS-type support/replenishment vessels, that could work. More would be much better though. However, they would likely need to be based together (East Coast or West Coast) unless the RCN found it acceptable to have one or both of them out of service for significant periods of time. I will explain more below.

As for the RCN having only four Absalon-class vessels, with two stationed on each coast... That IMO would be a very poor idea indeed. Firstly, the Absalon-class vessel is based upon a frigate, but is not itself a frigate or destroyer. They have a flex deck and vehicle ramp, as well as a significant amount of their armament in StanFlex containers. The gives them significant capabilities in support and joint operations, with potent self-defence systems (IIRC ~36 ESSM). IMO this would not be sufficient for them to provide the RCN with an area air defence capability, which is something which would be required if the RCN were ever to operate outside the protective umbrella of RCAF or allied air cover. Also, only having a total of four would be insufficient to meet RCN patrolling and/or escort needs. On a deployment, a high value target should likely have 2 - 3 escorts (or more...) to provide defences against air, surface and sub-surface attacks. Further, in order to have a single surface unit available for deployment or on operations at any given time, a total of three units are typically required. The basic rule is that one vessel is either available for operations or on a deployment, another vessel is undergoing maintenance, and the third undergoing a training cycle, doing a pre-deployment work up or post-deployment stand down.

That more or less covers the RCN for now. The idea of selling the Leopard II's is IMO also a poor one. The Canadian Army recently (within the past decade) purchased the Leo II's as replacements for their retired Leo I's following operational experiences in Afghanistan. It was found that having heavy armour support was still a very useful capability to have. While having an IFV like a CV90 or Puma in service might provide many of the same capabilities, it would lack the level of armour protection as well as armament (unless Canada were to purchase the CV90-120T...)

-Cheers
 

Future Fleet

New Member
Very respectful rebuttal Todjaeger,

Can understand 15 SSKs may be too many. I'll revise to 10 SSKs. Even 2 SSNs would be enough. I disagree that they can't be used for patrol though. If it isn't war time there is no reason they can't give up their position when necessary.

The Type 214 only requires 27 crew and has an endurance of 84 days. It has a range of 12,000 miles too. Seems to be what Canada would need to me. Remember the 212 is for Germany, the 214 was designed for export.

I agree SSNs would be a tough sell to Canadian public. Remember, in a real war with a capable enemy navy, all surface vessels will have to run for their home ports. That is why subs are needed for defence and attack.

The Kingston class is a joke compared to the Visby. I'm not saying a Meko CSL wouldn't do the job better due to its size. Compared to what we have, the Visby is faster, better armed, can carry a helicopter, and perform anti-mine operations properly. The only drawback here may be its size. Interestingly, it is about 20 feet longer than our current coastal defence ship.

I could agree to 3 support ships. How about putting Aegis on the support ships directly? Cheaper than putting Aegis on 2 or 3 escorts who are there to try and create an Aegis umbrella for the 4th ship that does't have it.

The Leopards are great don't get me wrong. Just don't think we should be involved in the kind of adventures where we will need them.
 

Equinox

New Member
The Leopards are great don't get me wrong. Just don't think we should be involved in the kind of adventures where we will need them.
Which is rather short-sighted of you. Canada as a prominent middle-power and member of the international community has obligations and interests that may require it to be involved in "adventures" where it might need them--especially if doctrine and experience indicate their usefulness--regardless of whether it intended to be or not.
 
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