RAN Fremantle class disposal suggestion

alexsa

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I think they should keep the old ships. They may come in usefull.
Perhaps some may go to the RANR (as was the case with the old Attack Class) but I don't know for sure. Maintenacne and manning costs is an issue if any are to be retained. If you keep them you have to look after them and that all cost money, particualry with legacy systesm such as the 40/60 to care for and keep spares for. Even in dry storage (laid up on a hard stand) there is still a cost if you want to keep them viable.
 

AMTP10E

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It looks like there has been a change of mind (yet again) in the halls of power. Previously all the boats had been slated for scrapping. Now everything is back on the table (gifting to the Indons, dive wrecks, museums, sale to the highest bidder...)

Indecision: the key to flexibility.
 

gf0012-aust

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AMTP10E said:
It looks like there has been a change of mind (yet again) in the halls of power. Previously all the boats had been slated for scrapping. Now everything is back on the table (gifting to the Indons, dive wrecks, museums, sale to the highest bidder...)

Indecision: the key to flexibility.
good to see you here. ;) so, bearing in mind that they're a bit knackered, do you think that the Indons will still want them?

seems that there are too many for a HULKEX... etc...
 

AMTP10E

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gf0012-aust said:
good to see you here. ;) so, bearing in mind that they're a bit knackered, do you think that the Indons will still want them?

seems that there are too many for a HULKEX... etc...

The Indons are going through some senior military leadership changes at the moment, so it's possible that the new guys might want them. Especially since they're trying to reach their 'Green Water Power Navy' objective in a ridiculously short time frame.
 

gf0012-aust

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AMTP10E said:
Especially since they're trying to reach their 'Green Water Power Navy' objective in a ridiculously short time frame.

There goes the cardinal rule of "plan before purchase".....
 

AMTP10E

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gf0012-aust said:
There goes the cardinal rule of "plan before purchase".....

The Indonesians are by no means unique in their 'more hulls in the water = better'. They (and a whole bunch of others) have got to learn to ask 'What ships do I need and how do I support them?'.
 

Supe

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Update:

Govt considers giving old Navy vessels to E Timor

Northern Territory Fisheries Minister Kon Vatskalis has proposed giving decommissioned Navy vessels to East Timor to bolster their coastal surveillance.

Mr Vatskalis has just returned from an official trip to Dili where he held talks with officials from the mining and fisheries industries.

He says that country is also dealing with illegal fishing.

Mr Vatskalis says the Australian Navy is introducing new Armidale Class patrol boats and the superseded Fremantle Class vessels could be donated to Timor.

"It's happened before. The Australian Government provided some of the old patrol boats to the Pacific islands, Pacific nations, in order to police their waters with great success because we provided the training, we provided the boats and we can do the same for East Timor," he said.

Minister Assisting the Federal Minister for Defence, Bruce Billson, was also in Darwin last night to launch two of the new Navy patrol boats, and says he is open to the idea of giving decommissioned boats to East Timor.

"Some creative lateral thinking there by the Northern Territory Minister," he said.

"I guess our approach is very much one of collaboration in managing the northern shores of Australia. That's a useful suggestion and we'll certainly have a look at that."

Mr Vatskalis also proposes a partnership deal for East Timorese fisheries staff to also train in Darwin.

He says the training would help East Timor police their natural resources.

"It's something we have to discuss formally in the Department, I mean we have different courses we run all the time," he said.

"We can offer structural training programs so these people get the skills and expertise, go back to Timor and train some of their colleagues there."


source
 

Sea Toby

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Timore Leste would probably be more interested in a brand new Pacific class patrol boat with the much needed life support as other Pacific island nations have received from Australia. Portugal has already sent two of their smaller older patrol boats.
 

gf0012-aust

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I can't see it happening.

The Freos are absolutely rooted - esp the Indian Ocean units.

Unfort the Territory Minister has probably created a diplomatic nightmare. If we've denied them to the Indons, then we can harldy do a backflip and donate them to the East Timorese. There is obviously still no love lost between the 2.

We're in the middle of helping the Indons rebuild their greenwater navy, and they've asked for the Freos in the past. To change our opinion on seaworthiness and viability would create a sticky credibility problem for navy and the current staff involved with trg.

AMTP10E is the one who would know as he is in the loop. I'll see if he can shed some light on this during the week.
 

Sea Toby

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Frankly, its difficult for third world nations to keep new ships operational, discarding old worn out ships to countries that can't keep new ships operational is a colossal mistake. Indonesia is a fine example of a nation that can't keep its assets operational. Its far better to sink or scrap the Fremantles. If you wish to give Indonesia or Timor Leste new ships, something that actually costs you something, that's another story.

I thought this was the premise of the Pacific Patrol Boat program. Obviously some misguided politician needs to be told the facts by either his/her party leader or by some responsible defence official.

However, there are a number of first and second world nations that can accept old equipment and keep them operational. Nations with a large mechanic population such as Taiwan, South Korea, Turkey, and Mexico for example, can do so, unfortunately, Indonesia is not one

As I recall, the Fremantles were designed to last 15 years, which at that point in their lives Australia gave them a mid-life or service-life extension to last another 10 years. While it is great to pawn off used equipment at the mid-life point and with a mid-life refit, its another concept entirely to pawn off used equipment at the time of its end of life.

I'm sure Indonesia would be much more interested in the two Perry class frigates Australia is discarding early.
 
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Supe

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I wasn't aware that the Australian gov had denied the Fremantles to the Indonesians or that the Indonesians had even expressed an interest.

A minister from the N.T is not going to carry any real weight but what did grab my attention was Bruce Billson (Minister assisting MinDef), words that he is "open to the idea of giving decommissioned boats to East Timor.". I suspect it's just one of those things said, but with no intention of following up on it. I bet it made Mr Vatskalis's night.
 

gf0012-aust

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Supe said:
I wasn't aware that the Australian gov had denied the Fremantles to the Indonesians or that the Indonesians had even expressed an interest.

A minister from the N.T is not going to carry any real weight but what did grab my attention was Bruce Billson (Minister assisting MinDef), words that he is "open to the idea of giving decommissioned boats to East Timor.". I suspect it's just one of those things said, but with no intention of following up on it. I bet it made Mr Vatskalis's night.
I'll see if AMPT10E can publicly make a comment and post it here. But going off prev discussions with him, it was quite apparent that we were unwilling to give the Indons vessels that had taken a flogging. I suspect that the Minister Assisting has passed comment without validation first - a cardinal sin if there ever was one. I bet his military liaison officer is in damage control. ;)
 
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gf0012-aust

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and the answer from AMPT10E in light of what I said prev...


FERGING HELL!!

This is what happens when politicians don't listen to the professional advice we give them.

Looks like we'd better get ready to write ministerials for the next 6 months as we try to explain the facts of life to these w*nkers. AGAIN!

If they want to give them patrol boats, build them some new ones rather than adding to their woes!
 
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Paddy 54

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Fremantle Disposals

OK. They are 'stuffed'

How could a friend inflict them on Timor Leste? ET has no maintenance history, no funds, is having problems with it's army and has two ex Portugese patrol boats to man & maintain.

Not a good idea.

But how do you define 'stuffed?' From an Australian prospect or as a replacement for older/worse equipment?

By all means let the Indonesians inspect the hulls, tell them the history/problems and let them make up their own minds. As is the hulls may be better than some Indonesian hulks.

Then what about the Phillipines? They appear worse off than the Indonesians.

Why not offer half each to the Indonesians & the Phillipinos? If rejected then the remains should go to a museum or be sold for refitting as a 'rich man's toy.'

Cheers

Paddy54
 

Supe

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Paddy 54 said:
OK. They are 'stuffed'

How could a friend inflict them on Timor Leste? ET has no maintenance history, no funds, is having problems with it's army and has two ex Portugese patrol boats to man & maintain.
A 'friend' would as part of the package (including training) provide maintenance for these vessels. Obviously there is a finite life to these ships (arguably that's been met already) but eking out a few more years out of them provides East Timor with skills, trained personnel, goodwill, experience in operating with other nations and developing ties in the process. Lessons which will serve the East Timorese years into the future. Of course this benefits Australia too.

They certainly have a need to protect their economic interests - one that I suspect is not being currently met. Australia is facing problems with illegal fishing, I should think this is true of our near neighbour too. Australia should view Timor Leste as a strategic interest. I think we should be investing more into the relationship.
 

Sea Toby

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I agree, its a great idea to give a NEW Pacific class patrol boat to East TImor similar to what Australia has done in the past with almost all of the Pacific forum nations. My Aunt Clara is very proud of Australia's aid to Pacific Island nations, and especially the Pacific class patrol boats.

As an American, I am very proud of the foreign aid America gives to many of the Caribbean nations, including NEW patrol boats.

But its a very bad and stupid idea to give them worn out junk. Instead of helping, you'll just be giving them more woes.
 

gf0012-aust

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I'll see if I can confirm Timor Lestes status - but I'm fairly sure that they're under the PI support programme.

Aust has not had any difficulty in giving away second hand gear before - so the fact that these are not regarded as "donatable" says something.

eg we've given Indonesia Sabre Jets, Nomads (1/2 of her existing fleet are donors), Attack Class patrol boats etc....

the freos must be absolutely shagged.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I believe the Australian navy uses one Pacific class patrol boat for training purposes. While its not brand new, East Timor would be better off with it rather than a worn out Fremantle class boat. Australia could build another Armidale to replace it. As I said earlier, its one thing to sell or give a used boat at the mid-life point, its another thing to sell or give a used up boat at the end of its life.

Since East Timor is a new nation, it would be better off with a new boat, giving it time to build up its maintenance capabilities.
 

alexsa

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Sea Toby said:
I believe the Australian navy uses one Pacific class patrol boat for training purposes. While its not brand new, East Timor would be better off with it rather than a worn out Fremantle class boat. Australia could build another Armidale to replace it. As I said earlier, its one thing to sell or give a used boat at the mid-life point, its another thing to sell or give a used up boat at the end of its life.

Since East Timor is a new nation, it would be better off with a new boat, giving it time to build up its maintenance capabilities.
Hello All

The Vessel in question is operated by Defence Maritime Services not the Navy. It is provided under contract to the RAN for a very specific task so is not really something that could be handed over to Timor.

I think new Pacific Class PB would be the best option noting this has been quite a succesful program and the boats are a known quantity. On the other hand ther may be cost implication in regards to producing one or two boats so long after the program was completed. Other wouel have a bertter idea than me on whether this would be a factor.
 

gf0012-aust

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Sea Toby said:
I believe the Australian navy uses one Pacific class patrol boat for training purposes. While its not brand new, East Timor would be better off with it rather than a worn out Fremantle class boat. Australia could build another Armidale to replace it.
No, training boat is TV Pinduro which is basically a small 13m fishing boat with the same radar, GPS plotter, gyro compass, auto pilot as well as communications equipment. Pinduro is owned by AMC Search who are responsible for provision of trg.

Pinduro would be next to useless outside of a protected Bay.

I suspect that a patrolie is on the cards for TL as we have been donating a fair bit of other gear to them.

If the one sole Mil24 Hind and 2 x Mil17 Gunships weren't RS, we could given them those as a startup airforce. ;) I imagine PNG would not be impressed though. ;)

BTW official name for "East Timor" changed to "Timor Leste" upon achieving Independance. "Leste" means "East" IIRC
 
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