RAN Fremantle class disposal suggestion

[Supe]

Seeing as the Fremantle class patrol boats are being replaced by the new Armidale class boats, I am curious to know what the fate of the Fremantle's will be. I reckon a few of these boats (plus training) would make a great present for Timor Leste. It allows Australia to continue and enhance relations with T-L and in turn it provides Australia with goodwill (and another layer of security) from its immediate neighbour. These patrol boats provide a capacity for the Timorese to defend their waters from pirates, poachers and as a byproduct function in an anti-terrorism role (interdicting suspicious traffic) thus enhancing regional security.

The remaining boats could be donated to the Solomon Islands and PNG.

Thoughts?

 

[gf0012-aust]

matey, they're too knackered. otherwise we would be giving them to our neighbours.

Indonesia also wanted some but we had to decline. They look ok on the outside, but they've had a bit of a hiding in sea time.

 

[Supe]

I note the Indonesians still employ the Attack class which Fremantle's replaced. With that in mind, I don't see why Timor-Leste couldn't eke out a few more years out of them at least for an interim period till they get something newer. They could be maintained by an Australian firm or the RAN till the Timorese gain the necessary skills and self-sufficiency required to look after them.

As I mentioned before, this could have enormous benefits for Australian security. Our defence ties in the region have reaped rewards before. I've read anecdotes about how Australian commanders on the ground in contact with their counterparts in the TNI, reduced escalation of conflict. It might have been different, if those relationships hadn't existed. Likewise, Australia should be striving for the same close ties with the Timorese.

 

[gf0012-aust]

I note the Indonesians still employ the Attack class which Fremantle's replaced. With that in mind, I don't see why Timor-Leste couldn't eke out a few more years out of them at least for an interim period till they get something newer. They could be maintained by an Australian firm or the RAN till the Timorese gain the necessary skills and self-sufficiency required to look after them.

As I mentioned before, this could have enormous benefits for Australian security. Our defence ties in the region have reaped rewards before. I've read anecdotes about how Australian commanders on the ground in contact with their counterparts in the TNI, reduced escalation of conflict. It might have been different, if those relationships hadn't existed. Likewise, Australia should be striving for the same close ties with the Timorese.

I know one of the blokes who's been dealing with the Indonesians - he assured me that those vessels are stuffed. They took a while to convince the Indons that they're not worth the effort. Believe me, if we could have given them decent ships we would have. There are very strong committments on both sides to normalise relationships. Hence why we are helping train them and do a ORBAT assessment for green water defence.

 

[alexsa]

The Fremantles ahve done a lot of years of very hard service (some, like Wollongong had a much harder life than others) and I can understand why they are ready to be retired. For all its faults (the engine shaft arrangment was a shocker as was the APE and the rudders were often ineffective in a following sea on one engine) the FPB has served the RAN well. I do wonder about the potential longevity of the Armadale and feel that these may not ahve the same life in them from a hull point of view.

This view is not specualtive but based on information about the certification standard they have been built to. They were orignally mooted as coming under th HSC Code although they exceed this code in many aspects. The HSC allows a ruductionin the normal requirements of the SOLAS convnetion on the basis the vessel operate within a prescibed time from a safe haven at operational speed and that they operate on prescibed routes.

This is clearly not practical for the work of an RAN PB. When the FPB replaced the Attack class many morned the loss of such a robust "little" boat. It is just possible we may see the same senitment when the FPB is replaced by the Armadale altough the davit/RHIB arrangment on the Armadale is vastly increase the effectiveness of our PB force.

I will watch their operation with interest.

 

[Supe]

Regarding the Armidales: Are they capable of operating 76mm Oto Melara gun?

Bloody acronyms. I had to google HSC code.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Regarding the Armidales: Are they capable of operating 76mm Oto Melara gun?

Bloody acronyms. I had to google HSC code.

I saw some schematics last year where they were profiled with a 76mm. But, seriously doubt that they could without substantial hull and through deck mods.

I imagine there would be some interesting handling issues when turning at speed.

 

[Supe]

Is there any concern from RAN or defence community about the Armidales being of aluminium construction? Does it matter for these sorts of vessels, given the sort of operations they undertake?

Des the Armidales have enough 'muscle' to take on pirates?

Edit: Description of role for this class.

Senator Hill said the patrol boats will be able to operate in rougher seas and would improve the navy's ability to apprehend vessels suspected of illegal fishing and quarantine, customs and immigration offences

 

[alexsa]

Looking at the displacement tonnage of the Fremantle and Armidale is instrucive. There is only a matter on tonnes difference between them despite the Armidale being 15m longer. It is recognsied the Fremantles have steel hulls (aluminium upper works) however a minimal increase in overall weight for a 36% increase in size is of interest particularly as there is considerabel weight associated with the RHIB and davit arrangment (it is recongnised that the bofors and 81mm mortar and assocaited structure impose a weight penalty on the FPB that would partially offset this).

The fact that the certification of these vessels has been propsoed onthe Basis of the HSC (High Speed Craft) code would indicate that they are of lighter construction. It is of interest that if these were to be certified for commercial use they would not be permitted to undertake continous operations on a given route unless they were within 4 hours of a safe haven (8 hours if we consider them cargo vessels).

As such I wouel suggest these vessel will be limited to operating in good conditions in the northern area. I think the NZ POV design is more like what is requried if we want to send vessels into rougher waters (perhaps with a little more in the way of armament). For the southern ocean you really need a very capable sea boat (such as the new RR design OPV derived from North Sea Support vessels) as i don't think that is even a place for frigates when the weather gets fiece and cold.

 

[Supe]

Alexsa: This senate hansard excerpt which touches on the on the Armidales might interest you.

Senator MARK BISHOP—Rear Admiral, could you tell us what purpose the Navy seeks to have achieved
through the purchase of these patrol boats and how they differ from the work carried out by Customs up there?

Rear Adm. Hancock—By and large, the role of these patrol boats will not be changed from those that they
replace, which is the Armidale class. Significantly, they have longer legs, have better sea keeping, have more
capability, can deliver more capability throughout the whole year and will be able to be tasked for longer thanthe Fremantle class patrol boats they will replace.

Senator MARK BISHOP—When you say ‘deliver more capability’, what does that mean?

Rear Adm. Hancock—One specific key element of capability delivery is their ability to operate in high sea states. They can operate in much rougher weather than the ones they will replace. For example, it may mean in
an operation like we are conducting in the north, rather than having to shelter when the weather gets very rough they could stay out there and continue to do the business.

Senator MARK BISHOP—Are high seas a feature of the coast across the north and coming down the
upper north-west?

Rear Adm. Hancock—Rough seas. Not necessarily high seas in terms of absolute wave or swell height but the seas can get very rough.

Senator MARK BISHOP—Will they be able to operate in high seas as well?

Rear Adm. Hancock—To an extent greater than the ones they replace in the Armidale class, yes.

Senator MARK BISHOP—But only a marginal increase in terms of operating in high seas.

Rear Adm. Hancock—You will get an extra sea state, probably from sea state 4 to sea state 5, which issignificant. But they are not designed to operate a long way from the coast in waters deep south, for example.

Senator MARK BISHOP—You would not send them down to the Southern Ocean chasing illegal poachers or the like.

Rear Adm. Hancock—No.

Senator MARK BISHOP—They are essentially coastal patrol and interception craft in the north and north-west.

Rear Adm. Hancock—Pretty much but we could extend the term ‘coastal’ in the Australian context because they are really capable. They can go out to the edge of our economic zone.

Australian Senate hansards on Defence: Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade. You can download hansards in pdf format.

I just hope the Armidales are as good as Hancock thinks they are. I suppose time will tell.

 

[alexsa]

Hi Supe

This senate hansard excerpt which touches on the on the Armidales might interest you.

The quotes are of interest and are consistent with the line run in the navy web page in respect of the new patrol boats which states http://www.navy.gov.au/fleet/patrol.htm

Australia’s new fleet of bigger, faster and more capable patrol boats will be named after Australian cities and towns with close links with Navy heritage.

In 2003 Senator Hill announced the new class of patrol boats were to be named the Armidale class to coincide with 60th commemoration events of the sinking of the original HMAS Armidale. The boats will be named Armidale, Bathurst, Bundaberg, Albany, Pirie, Maitland, Ararat, Launceston, Larrakia, Wollongong, Childers and Broome.

The new boats will improve Navy’s capability to intercept and apprehend vessels in a greater range of sea conditions increasing surveillance, which will better protect Australia’s coastline.

There is a touch of smoke and mirrors here. Even there own stats have the FPB at a top speed of 30 knots and the Armidale at 25 so that claim is a bit off. They certainly will be more capable than the FPB in respect of fisheries and coast guard rolls witht he RHIB and davit arrangement as thsi was very much an add on with the Fremantles while being a core part of the Armidale design.

In so far their ability to withstand a particular sea state the increased length and bredth will help but it must be accepted that a maximum of sea state five is not much (17 to 21 knot winds, Fresh breeze and associated sea). As noted previously thse vessel have a 36% size increase in length and an increase in beam with only a 13.6% increase in mass. There is information floating about that despite the assurnances given in the contract these vessel may have operational limitations applied to them. Rear Admiral Hancock appears to have alluded to this when he stated

You will get an extra sea state, probably from sea state 4 to sea state 5, which issignificant. But they are not designed to operate a long way from the coast in waters deep south, for example.

For all the hype about the qualtity of aluminium vessels built in Australia many of the problems have not been reported. Some of the INCAT designs suffered cracking in stress areas and need frequent repair when operating waters that were anything but smooth. The Bay class that are in many ways the small parent of the Armidale design have similarly suffered problems with cracking.

As you say only time will tell but the 'opinion' expressed by some is that these boat may not last us as long as the Fremantles did.

Here is a pricture of the pair together for a size comparision. As you can see there is a vast difference in size in all dimensions.

taken from http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/board/showthread.php?p=85978

OLD AND NEW: The next generation patrol boat NUSHIP Armidale, alongside the Fremantle class boat, HMAS Gawler. The older boats will gradually be replaced as the new boats come on line.

 

[gf0012-aust]

For all the hype about the qualtity of aluminium vessels built in Australia many of the problems have not been reported. Some of the INCAT designs suffered cracking in stress areas and need frequent repair when operating waters that were anything but smooth. The Bay class that are in many ways the small parent of the Armidale design have similarly suffered problems with cracking.

I'd argue that there is vast difference between an INCAT and an Austal built vessel.

From personal experience, I'd argue that comparing an INCAT to an Austal is like comparing a Commodore to a Mercedes S Class. The USN discovered the quality of Cliffords early work on delivery. The USMC OTOH has been more than happy with Austal.

INCATs look sexy - that doesn't translate to build quality.

 

[alexsa]

I'd argue that there is vast difference between an INCAT and an Austal built vessel.

Can't been seen to be maligning one of our premier high speed craft builders but your comment has certainly been made by others. However, the point I was trying to make is that most current aluminium ferry designs have sea state restrictions (the new Austal trimaran may be the odd man out here). The same goes for many lightweight monohulls (the Bay Class being an example).

I will be a little curious to see how the Armidale last given the building classification and 'apparent' lightweight construction.

I could also be quite wrong in my assumptions and the new vessels may turn out to be quite robust and long lived.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Can't been seen to be maligning one of our premier high speed craft builders but your comment has certainly been made by others. However, the point I was trying to make is that most current aluminium ferry designs have sea state restrictions (the new Austal trimaran may be the odd man out here). The same goes for many lightweight monohulls (the Bay Class being an example).

I will be a little curious to see how the Armidale last given the building classification and 'apparent' lightweight construction.

I could also be quite wrong in my assumptions and the new vessels may turn out to be quite robust and long lived.

Don't get me wrong, Clifford can make a decent boat - but they're chalk and cheese compared to an Austal build.

re your last, if they're working the Indian Ocean, then we'll find out soon enough. Vessels in the SIO tend to take a bit of a beating compared to the Pacific.

 

[Supe]

re your last, if they're working the Indian Ocean, then we'll find out soon enough. Vessels in the SIO tend to take a bit of a beating compared to the Pacific.

...and if they don't last the lifetime they're budgeted for, someone's head is going to roll. Rightly so. I was a bit peeved when you said they'd be unable to operate the 76mm Oto Melara. Even though not needed, what about planning for contingencies? Having some leeway for growth should be mandatory for such vessels.

bah.

 

[Jason_kiwi]

I think the new patrol boats are to under armed for the threats OZ faces. Indonesia.

 

[alexsa]

Originally Posted by Jason_kiwi

I think the new patrol boats are to under armed for the threats OZ faces. Indonesia.

The reality is that these boats are coastwatch/coastguard vessels in so far as their operations are concerned. Despite the fact I would love to see more capabilty growth in their design and have concerns that they 'may' be a bit lightly constructed this does no mean I expect them to be trading blows with FAC in the SA Asian area. If it ever comes to that (god forbid) we have better capabilties in the Pengiun equiped Sea Sprites and Harpoon II.

The issue always has been that you need to maximise the effectiveness of each asset. Short term cost cuts can result in an ineffective asset that cannott be upgraged. In the NZ context this is critical as you a few assets with any real capability an most of them appear to have limited capability growth.

 

[Aussie Digger]

I saw some schematics last year where they were profiled with a 76mm. But, seriously doubt that they could without substantial hull and through deck mods.

I imagine there would be some interesting handling issues when turning at speed.

What about that shiny new Swedish Mk3 57mm gun system though? It apparently is far less deck instrusive than the Oto Melara range and the USN is apparently far more impressed by it's range, accuracy, rate of fire and overall capability?

Do you know if the ADF has shown any interest in that? At least it would be a somewhat acceptable compromise...

 

[gf0012-aust]

What about that shiny new Swedish Mk3 57mm gun system though? It apparently is far less deck instrusive than the Oto Melara range and the USN is apparently far more impressed by it's range, accuracy, rate of fire and overall capability?

Do you know if the ADF has shown any interest in that? At least it would be a somewhat acceptable compromise...

Nope, haven't heard a sausage on it. The other main question is whether the ADF would go to a calibre thats not universal amongst the force - another logistics issue.

 

[Jason_kiwi]

I think they should keep the old ships. They may come in usefull.