Rafales for Lybia

[Waylander]

Please, please forgive me but just one small comment.

The ex-NVA MiG-29 flown by Luftwaffe may have a good record for WVR but they nearly got smacked everytime they had to go BVR.

And now hit me for this off topic statement.


Back to topic.

One thing I think might be important. The russians tend to be the ones nearly always providing maintenance and training support while western countries tend to be much faster with stopping this support in case of a conflict which dies not fit into their plans.
In the event that Lybia drives away a little bit from the western friendly course it is steering now Russia might be the more reliable supporter (As long as hard cash flows).

 

[European]

18 Rafales would dramatically boost Libyan airpower in the region, but it's by far not enough to pose a significant threat to Italy. A matter of numbers, and also support I'd say. Does Libya have modern AEW and refueling aircraft ? I doubt it. That's why "Italians won't have to bother".
We don't know for sure at what distance a Typhoon can radar-lock a Rafale (and vice-versa), and we don't have a clue if Libya would get the AESA anyway.
Typhoon superior agility... remains to be proven in exercises, where the Rafale already did against current-day European and US fighters.
And Rafale does have sensor fusion and Link 16, right now in operation F2 standard planes in AdA and MN.

As for the sale itself, well sure Kadhafi isn't an angel and his past actions were, let's say... not always friendly, but it seems now he's not in the "Axis of Evil" anymore. And given how concurrential (hint : huge American pressure : ) the previous competitions were... I wouldn't have any scruple selling Rafales to Libya.

I don't agree.
Rafale to Lybia will boost the pressure over the italian air force (AMI) and the italian gouvernment.
The idea to have modern and dangerous weapons of offense
owned by Khadafi or some of Khadafi's son that never refuse the personal ostility towards italians and never stop to claim the italian Island of Lampedusa can't let the italians impassible.

 

[eckherl]

I don't agree.
Rafale to Lybia will boost the pressure over the italian air force (AMI) and the italian gouvernment.
The idea to have modern and dangerous weapons of offense
owned by Khadafi or some of Khadafi's son that never refuse the personal ostility towards italians and never stop to claim the italian Island of Lampedusa can't let the italians impassible.

What are you worried about, Isn`t Italy part of NATO.

 

[Rich]

In the Post Cold war environment I dont see much threat to the Italians if Libya buys these war planes. Italy is a NATO member. Nuff said.

Back to the system itself, and thank you for zeroing the discussion back in, yes it will increase Qs capability. But in the coming years the Italians will have F-35s, as well as two floating platforms to operate them on. As it is Italy has a large and very capable Air Force centered on F-16, Typhoons, Harrier-ll, Tornado, AMX, with tanker assets to support them.

This is a serious fighting force operating under NATO standards.

 

[European]

http://www.menewsline.com/stories/2007/january/01_16_2.html

 

[chrisrobsoar]

http://www.menewsline.com/stories/2007/january/01_16_2.html

I don't think that this report dated 16 Th Jan from the Middle East News Line (in London) adds very much to what was publish in France on Sunday.

We will have to wait for more facts.

BTW: Rafale at present is equipped with RBE2 PESA (Passive Electronically Scanned Array ). An AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) is being developed, but is unlikely to be in service before 2012. Trials were carried with T/R Modules using US sourced GaAs based parts. Work continues to develop EU sources parts, possibly using GaN. It is very unlikely that the AESA will be available in the timeframed required by Libya.

Chris

 

[Khairul Alam]

Was denied.
Thx God.
Better not put that plane in one of these countries, IMHO.

Why would Dassault put down this deal? The French still does not even have a single export customer for its Rafael. Refusing to the only deal doesnt make good business sense. Can there be some other reasons for the denial?

 

[BuSOF]

Sorry for abusing this thread:

Dear BuSOF,

I'd like to answer to your posting, perhaps you could open a new thread and start it with your previous posting here?

Greetz

Dear Falstaff, I would gladly do that if there's any point. But there just isn't. I am damn sure that all the members will start defending the US fighter and make the Su look like a joke. Anyway that's about enough off-topic I think. Sorry.:unknown

 

[BuSOF]

Why would Dassault put down this deal? The French still does not even have a single export customer for its Rafael. Refusing to the only deal doesnt make good business sense. Can there be some other reasons for the denial?

Dassault would be more than happy to sell the Rafale but still Washington can make a lot of havoc in its relations with Paris, If the yanks can do that to Russia who can prevent them from pressuring one of their own allies, even if not the closest one?

 

[Whiskyjack]

Dassault would be more than happy to sell the Rafale but still Washington can make a lot of havoc in its relations with Paris, If the yanks can do that to Russia who can prevent them from pressuring one of their own allies, even if not the closest one?

I think the word is 'Friends' not 'Allies'

 

[contedicavour]

In the Post Cold war environment I dont see much threat to the Italians if Libya buys these war planes. Italy is a NATO member. Nuff said.

Back to the system itself, and thank you for zeroing the discussion back in, yes it will increase Qs capability. But in the coming years the Italians will have F-35s, as well as two floating platforms to operate them on. As it is Italy has a large and very capable Air Force centered on F-16, Typhoons, Harrier-ll, Tornado, AMX, with tanker assets to support them.

This is a serious fighting force operating under NATO standards.

Just for the record, where was NATO when we got SCUDs launched against our island of Lampedusa ? Or when in 1981 a MIG-23 somehow got as far as Calabria (north-east of Sicily) finally crashing because out of fuel ...
Besides, there is no permanent NATO fighter wing based in Sicily, capable of intervening in support of our 5th Air Wing with F16ADF.
Hence we will have to be able to counter any threat from Libya on our own. I agree 13-18 Rafales may not be too much of a threat, but a more sizeable force of approx 50 Rafale or SU30MKI would definitively be. The only thing that reassures me is that by the time they would be built and delivered, we'll have at least 80+ Typhoons and the first F-35s only a couple of years away.

cheers

 

[swerve]

Just for the record, where was NATO when we got SCUDs launched against our island of Lampedusa ? Or when in 1981 a MIG-23 somehow got as far as Calabria (north-east of Sicily) finally crashing because out of fuel ...

Where was the call for NATO help? I don't recall Italy asking for (or needing) any assistance. You don't get armoured columns rolling across the border from your allies just because they think it might be a good idea (well, the Warsaw Pact did, but not NATO ). You have to ask - and Italy didn't.

 

[eckherl]

Dassault would be more than happy to sell the Rafale but still Washington can make a lot of havoc in its relations with Paris, If the yanks can do that to Russia who can prevent them from pressuring one of their own allies, even if not the closest one?

Why would Washington make any bones about this deal, U.S based companies are wanting to get in there for the oil, plus Libya has been cooperating inregards to getting rid of WMDs. Times have changed and the leadership in Libya has gone through alot of aches and pains to get back in good standing with Europe and the U.S, why would they piss that away by getting overly stupid and attacking a NATO country. Swerve is right, if Italy had asked for help then NATO would of provided. Khaddafi has other issues right now that could be internal with exreme Islamic terrosts groups that he wants to keep out of Libya, the only way he has a chance of accomplishing this is start making friends and keeping them in Africa, U.S and Europe.

 

[eckherl]

Dear Falstaff, I would gladly do that if there's any point. But there just isn't. I am damn sure that all the members will start defending the US fighter and make the Su look like a joke. Anyway that's about enough off-topic I think. Sorry.:unknown

I do not think anyone in this group would call a SU 30 a piece of junk, it is rated as a darn good combat jet, it just doesn`t have any combat experience as to where the F 15 and F 16 do.

 

[BuSOF]

I think the word is 'Friends' not 'Allies'

No, the word is allies, not friends. Both countries are NATO members, but still reluctant to cooperate in the defence matters.

 

[BuSOF]

Why would Washington make any bones about this deal, U.S based companies are wanting to get in there for the oil, plus Libya has been cooperating inregards to getting rid of WMDs. Times have changed and the leadership in Libya has gone through alot of aches and pains to get back in good standing with Europe and the U.S, why would they piss that away by getting overly stupid and attacking a NATO country. Swerve is right, if Italy had asked for help then NATO would of provided. Khaddafi has other issues right now that could be internal with exreme Islamic terrosts groups that he wants to keep out of Libya, the only way he has a chance of accomplishing this is start making friends and keeping them in Africa, U.S and Europe.

WHY? Well, 'cause making business is one thing and giving a red light for the re-armament of a country that still shows no respect for the way law and diplomacy in the civilised world work is another. 'Cause the mere reason for stoping the WMD programme is that Tripoli wouldn't be capable of bringing it to success anyway. And why do you think the leadership in Libya has gone through alot of aches and pains to get back in good standing with Europe and the U.S anyway? Many people say that Khaddafi is way different from Saddam, but the truth is he aint that different at all. What do I mean? Well, both of them claimed to be socialist politicians, both of them played with the masses, claimed to be "fathers of the nation" and still that didn't stop Saddam from hailing the 'Just fight' when he felt he is brought in the corner. So Muamar wouldn't act any differently when he feels threatened. The mere thought of cooperation with a western country is thought to be an act of imperialism and neo-colonialism by the latter in the eyes of the arab countries.
If he's trying to make friends with the West, then why doesn't he stop the ships with illegal immigrants to Italy, huh? Because the guy thinks he has gotten Rome by the balls that way and can make it support the lybian foreign policy. If it suits him let him live in his own fairy-tale, but a 'go' to a lybian rearmament programme would be a huge mistake, because it will destabilize Egypt, which is one of the few arab countries, acting like they care about the security in the world.

 

[European]

Busof, you are right.
1) Why Khadafi wants to spend 2,5 bilion dollars for a modern fighter?
2)Someone thinks is for the lybian version of 'Red Harrows' ??
3) Why the french Rafale?
The answer is :
1) He wants to gain major role in the area. Egypt is the regional power (alligned with EU and Usa) and Khadafi wants to give more weight in the regional affairs.
More, the presence of modern fighter that could easily reach the island of Lampedusa can not to be undervalued by the italians. Many times lybian leaders had bad positions and acted wrong towards Italy. Italy never reacts strongly for don't make tensions in the area. What do u think the french did if they were in the shoes of the italians when missiles reach their island (ex. Corse)???
2) Khadafi wants to buy aircraft to show that has the power to counterbalance Egypt and to make problems to Italy.
3)Khadafi chooses Rafale cause He knows that French want to sell their own fighter to reach at least one export country.
More Khadafi knows that a true deal for EF-2000 will never be cause the italian will make strong oppositions. Same goes for the US fighters.
So in the market today the only modern fighter available is the french Rafale (or Russians fighters).
Someone sed that 'business is business'. If that is true why USA doesn't sell their state-of-art F-22 to China or Venezuela?

As I sed before it will be a bad idea for France to sell their Rafale to country like Lybia, Morocco or other country that threat EU countries.

 

[BuSOF]

Busof, you are right.
1) Why Khadafi wants to spend 2,5 bilion dollars for a modern fighter?
2)Someone thinks is for the lybian version of 'Red Harrows' ??
3) Why the french Rafale?
The answer is :
1) He wants to gain major role in the area. Egypt is the regional power (alligned with EU and Usa) and Khadafi wants to give more weight in the regional affairs.
More, the presence of modern fighter that could easily reach the island of Lampedusa can not to be undervalued by the italians. Many times lybian leaders had bad positions and acted wrong towards Italy. Italy never reacts strongly for don't make tensions in the area. What do u think the french did if they were in the shoes of the italians when missiles reach their island (ex. Corse)???
2) Khadafi wants to buy aircraft to show that has the power to counterbalance Egypt and to make problems to Italy.
3)Khadafi chooses Rafale cause He knows that French want to sell their own fighter to reach at least one export country.
More Khadafi knows that a true deal for EF-2000 will never be cause the italian will make strong oppositions. Same goes for the US fighters.
So in the market today the only modern fighter available is the french Rafale (or Russians fighters).
Someone sed that 'business is business'. If that is true why USA doesn't sell their state-of-art F-22 to China or Venezuela?

As I sed before it will be a bad idea for France to sell their Rafale to country like Lybia, Morocco or other country that threat EU countries.

Dear friend. I agree on most of the things you say. I will point only one fact out. When you split 2,5bn Euros on 18 fighters you get what, something like 140mln Euro a piece, right. And if you count with 13... I don't even wanna think about it. Who would pay that much if defence is all he seeks? Anyway, I wouldn't make business with Lybia because of the things I've pointed out before. We cannot say "business is business" the american way, because we are europeans and we stand for values, that's what the EU is all about and that is why I am so happy that we joined it 2 weeks ago.

 

[Falstaff]

We cannot say "business is business" the american way, because we are europeans and we stand for values, that's what the EU is all about and that is why I am so happy that we joined it 2 weeks ago.

BuSOF, you're driving tears into my eyes. As inhabitant of the "Old Europe" I would like to give a warm welcome to you and anyone who thinks that way!

Ups. Off topic again...

 

[Khairul Alam]

Dassault would be more than happy to sell the Rafale but still Washington can make a lot of havoc in its relations with Paris, If the yanks can do that to Russia who can prevent them from pressuring one of their own allies, even if not the closest one?

I had thought the US had already normalized relations with Libya because it gave up its weapons program. Still cant trust Gaddafi, can they?
Well in my opinion Gaddafi is no longer a danger to anyone. He is a man whose dreams have been dashed. He never got to see a united Arab entity. He saw fellow Arabs fight among each other (he made matters worse by joining Iran during the Iraq-Iran War). He saw Israel dealing knockout blows to Arabs and become the unrivalled regional superpower.
He has come to understand that his best interests lie in being nice with the West.