RAAF Stopgap air plan is 'dumb'

Status
Not open for further replies.

Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
pepsi said:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/not-so-stealthy-the-15b-fighters/2006/03/13/1142098404532.html



Did we choose the f-35 over the typhoon and rafale because of its stealth capability? It seems that if it really is losing such a vast amount of its stealth capability, plus the single engine issue, less payload, less range plus the fact that the price seems to be going up and there is talk of countries pulling out, it may not have been such a great decision to purchase it, or at least purchase it to become the RAAF's sole air combat jet
An interesting article. There seems to be a lot of debate over the ability of the JSF in regards to its capability as an air superiority fighter. Some say that it will only be bettered by the F-22 and some say it won’t be any better than other aircraft (like the Typhoon and Rafale).

I certainly don’t know the answer to that and I suspect few people do. But I’ll give my opinion anyway. :)

Looking at it from the outside I would suggest that it is a bit of both. The area where the US dominates is in the assets it brings to the party, such as electronic warfare, AWACS, tankers and the ability to network these assets with the front line platforms.

The question for me is not what platform is better, but what is it supported by. In 2015 would you rather be in an F-22 all by itself, or a Typhoon/Rafale/JSF supported by the platforms mentioned above? How stealthed is any aircraft once it has to go active to find its opponent?

The JSF is designed to be part of a networked environment where the F-22 is gaining air dominance and the JSF is delivering precision strike and able to defend itself. The JSF was never envisioned as a stand alone air superiority fighter, if it was the USAF would never be able to justify the F-22.

Whereas the Typhoon was designed foremost to be an air superiority aircraft, which due to the changing political climate has had the strike capability enhanced to give it more credibility. The Rafale was always going to be able to do both.

As for stealth, the world has had 25 years to come up with ways of countering it and it will have another 10 years before the JSF is available in any significant numbers.

The way I see it anyway.:rolleyes:
 
Last edited:

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
pepsi said:
Did we choose the f-35 over the typhoon and rafale because of its stealth capability? It seems that if it really is losing such a vast amount of its stealth capability, plus the single engine issue, less payload, less range plus the fact that the price seems to be going up and there is talk of countries pulling out, it may not have been such a great decision to purchase it, or at least purchase it to become the RAAF's sole air combat jet
Geez guys...apart from the first seven development jets, NOBODY, not even the US has "PURCHASED" a single JSF yet. The Australian government has only committed $150m to date towards the design and development of the aircraft, and is expected to commit a further similar amount in the next few months. That's all.

The ADF has laid out a very strict set of performance parameters which the successful Air 6000 Phase 1 and Phase 2 candidate must match, including low observability etc. Just because there is a disagreement about some fairly ambiguous wording on a website and some reporter who knows jack chit about defence matters gets a bug up his a$$, doesn't mean the aircraft is crap. My sources tell me the wording was changed because the F-22's low observability has proven to be better than expected, which led to the meanings of "low observability" and "very low observability" being re-defined. The JSF has not been 'detuned' or had its specs lowered in any way.

What people fail to look at its the comparitive range performances of a JSF with an internal bomb load compared to an F-111 with an external bomb load. What they also fail to look at is the situational awareness that the JSF's networked and integrated systems will bring to its pilot will far, FAR outweigh the perceived straight line speed and range performance advantages of a couple of dozen dubiously operated Sukhois in the region.

Rant over

Magoo
 
Last edited:

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #183
Goon is just indulging in some good old flanking manouvres. You're witnessing the media equiv of netcentric warfare. ;)

No offense, but neither he nor his other principle business partners (and I'm being deliberately oblique here) will have any idea of the specific RAAF numbers requirements for LO - and nor will they have any clue as to what the other critical requirements are.

On a side note, I'm no fan of the Rafale. It's a tactical/logistics orphan in more ways than one. That doesn't include my other misgivings about its absolute utility in the RAAF.
 

Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
gf0012-aust said:
On a side note, I'm no fan of the Rafale. It's a tactical/logistics orphan in more ways than one. That doesn't include my other misgivings about its absolute utility in the RAAF.
Interesting, I have heard some rumours, unsubstantiated, that even the French forces are not happy with it. Its lack of sales success when it was the first out of the block is also interesting to witness, but that is just observation, not hard fact.

Whereas the Typhoon may just be to new to get any sense of performance as yet.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #185
Whiskyjack said:
Interesting, I have heard some rumours, unsubstantiated, that even the French forces are not happy with it. Its lack of sales success when it was the first out of the block is also interesting to witness, but that is just observation, not hard fact.

Whereas the Typhoon may just be to new to get any sense of performance as yet.
  • I think that the Rafale has some significant issues that are hindering it's global acceptance.
  • radar capability - french have just shortened the existing build so as to invest in AESA development. thus 8 aircraft have been canned off the existing order
  • production orphan - not even the french are ordering in volume - and this is their principle platform. they've reduced own builds from 68 to 61.
  • price and capability closure issues against late model mirages.
  • the fact that all the tier one sales markets have rejected it
  • the fact that its range and loadout is not competitive againts EF in a strike role (and the bulk of tech development is towards PGM strike - so they've missed out on the technology "mood")
 

Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
gf0012-aust said:
  • I think that the Rafale has some significant issues that are hindering it's global acceptance.
  • radar capability - french have just shortened the existing build so as to invest in AESA development. thus 8 aircraft have been canned off the existing order
  • production orphan - not even the french are ordering in volume - and this is their principle platform. they've reduced own builds from 68 to 61.
  • price and capability closure issues against late model mirages.
  • the fact that all the tier one sales markets have rejected it
  • the fact that its range and loadout is not competitive againts EF in a strike role (and the bulk of tech development is towards PGM strike - so they've missed out on the technology "mood")
Thanks for that GF, will be interesting to see what rumours regarding the EF eventuate once it enters a more operational pattern. I have heard that there are issues with logistics support away from the production base. But I am keeping an open mind, normal to have these issues with any new ‘product’!

I understand the Italians used some of their EFs to patrol over the Winter Olympics.

More directly back to the thread, the latest issue of APDR suggests it will be 2014 (at the earliest) before the US will declare the JSF operational, and from the production plans the first 150 odd partner JSFs will be delivered by the end of 2015, but no break up of who gets how many. So first operational squadron RAAF 2016?
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Whiskyjack said:
I understand the Italians used some of their EFs to patrol over the Winter Olympics.


True, but only armed with IRIS-Ts...that's all they're cleared for at the moment I believe.



Whiskyjack said:
More directly back to the thread, the latest issue of APDR suggests it will be 2014 (at the earliest) before the US will declare the JSF operational, and from the production plans the first 150 odd partner JSFs will be delivered by the end of 2015, but no break up of who gets how many. So first operational squadron RAAF 2016?
All going to plan, the RAAF is scheduled to receive its first JSFs in 2012, however it's likely the OCU will be based in the US and receive all of its aircraft while there before coming back to Australia in 2013. Due to ongoing clearance and FOT&E work, it is unlikely the first RAAF operational squadron will be granted IOC before 2014, and FOC 12-18 months later. If the Hornets can hold out till 2015-16, and my information suggests they will, then we should be OK, but if they start falling off the perch early, then we could have a big ugly capability gap.

gf0012-aust said:
Goon is just indulging in some good old flanking maneouvres. You're witnessing the media equiv of netcentric warfare. No offense, but neither he nor his other principle business partners (and I'm being deliberately oblique here) will have any idea of the specific RAAF numbers requirements for LO - and nor will they have any clue as to what the other critical requirements are.
Have you read Goon's and Carlo's submissions to the Senate Estimates hearnings later this month??? :roll :eek

Geesh...

Magoo
 

rossfrb_1

Member
pepsi said:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/not-so-stealthy-the-15b-fighters/2006/03/13/1142098404532.html



Did we choose the f-35 over the typhoon and rafale because of its stealth capability? It seems that if it really is losing such a vast amount of its stealth capability, plus the single engine issue, less payload, less range plus the fact that the price seems to be going up and there is talk of countries pulling out, it may not have been such a great decision to purchase it, or at least purchase it to become the RAAF's sole air combat jet
RAAF is getting the JSF because John Howard (via then defence minister Hill) said so, full stop.
An evaluation for Air6000 was to happen, then it was canned.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #189
Magoo said:
Have you read Goon's and Carlo's submissions to the Senate Estimates hearnings later this month??? :roll :eek

Geesh...

Magoo
Not the specifics, but i had some email traffic the other day from him indicating that he'd been chewing pollies ears about 5th Generation requirements.

have any submissions been publicly displayed yet?
 

Kurt Plummer

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
AD,
>>
Load carrying ability is probably more relevant than it ever was. Have a brief look at the major air campaigns over the last 15 years. What characteristic would you say particularly stands out? The ability to destroy targets on the ground or in the air?
>>
I think the first thing the RAAF needs to do is decide if it still needs to beleager Indonesia yet more and if so whether it wants to do so with-
1. A carrier (even a container ship axial deck conversion) with F/A-18E/Rafale (30-40 airframes at 55-60 million). Or STOVL JSF (10-20 airframes at 104 million).
2. A CVTOL JSF that can hack a reasonable payload:radius (from landbases) with all-standoff missiles on the first day (S2 or JASSM), supported by a wing area that is larger than an F-15s. (20 airframes at 104 million or more).
3. A UCAV force that costs half as much as the JSF but is, as yet, 'developmental' (50-100 airframes= twice the robopylonage at 3 times the cruise point profile efficiencies for 25-45 million each).
4. An F-16 force which is fully developed. And quite capable of making range and 'combat persistence' with .50+/E mods. If you buy a tanker or two to go with (50-60 aircraft at 50-80 million each).
5. Beg an F-22 and a single tanker, along with a 4-5 RQ-4. (at 10 aircraft for 150 million each).
Myself...
A. I do not like single engine aircraft over water with a pilot involved. I also do not like single engine aircraft which cost more than 40 million dollars.
B. I do believe the small standoff munitions (after all that OZ did with the Awadi and later MMTD on the F-111, you should be able to call in a favor) change, radically, not merely the ability to hit target-X as a function of limited sorties and maximum efficiency on tankers. But also the /types/ of targets which you can saturate on the outer of Warden's 5 rings.
C. I think Cope India has finally put the nail in the coffin on 'dog fighting' proving that the InAF does not want to fight the 60km+ engagement. And that the USAF cannot beat them without it (AIM-9X as 20km seeker, 10km motor pipe, on the F-15 vs. MiG-21 Bison with R-73 and updated avionics supported by MFFC Su-30). The day of the Phoenix as 'representative' of the LRAAM _as a mission type_ (Naval AAW in the OAB attrition of archer and scout rather than arrow) is indeed /long past/. But the day of 'look in, shoot in' is NOT. And the only reason it has not been further invested is because the Russians follow the U.S. and the U.S. could not afford to design a weapons system (AAAM) which made the F-14/15 superior to the F-22. And which turned the AMRAAM/F-16 combination into just another ISRM.
D. If I was just chomping at the bit to prove how good the RAAF was, I would NOT do so with a system of systems approach that was the clone of the U.S. model (and indeed the ROW). I would want something that let those SAS Regimenters sitting on a ridge top call down multiple small weapons for /hours/ _before_ the threat could target a Tora Bora threatened U.S. force determined to set down between village and mountaintop.
E. HUG'ing the Bug is a waste of time. I don't care if it's an APG-73 under the hood. That centerbarrel is always going to be a stone beach which plagues naval operations (what, 4G limit in peacetime?) and as we go Lot-III on the Super Horror and start to back out of JSF or begin F-35C deliveries; the tails-per-deck rule will inevitably begin to shrink the USN support pipe on the first generation F-18s and thereby increase costs on yours. Even th Finn/Swiss/Malaysian deal won't help that much. Orphaning when your parents die in a car crash is one thing. Orphaning as a function of watching them starve themselves off before jumping ship is a whole 'nother tale.
>>
Add to this the current paradigm of time sensitive targeting: ie attempting to attack highly mobile ground forces who give you minutes at best to take your shot. Unfortunately in this situation you can't sortie an aircraft from an airfield to undertake the task.
>>
You can, it just doesn't exist as an armed system yet. How far do you think an SDB would go off an RQ-4? How long can an RQ-4 stay on station at 1,200nm radius?
Is the RAAF up to teaming with say Korea to get there now that the fighter mafia have obliterated all hope of the U.S. leading the pack?
Again, /from my perspective/ the threat of an Su-30 force alone is nothing to worry about.
They can't threaten Oz without all the same goodies that we would use (ACP, AAR, Strike Recce) and that is quite simply beyond say Indonesias purse, even if they could get the the largely Western technology base to pull out the proliferation control rods limiters on sales to the region.
As such, I _think_ there is a TIME WINDOW before any external threat could require you to consider 'super fighters' as a viable modifier to force structure design.
This window could in turn allow Australia to low-ball with a limited force of A-50 type strike trainers (though god knows you already have a motley mix of LIFTs) and arm them as Mirage III for local air defense at 25 million each. Or even 'go Russian' with Land-ASTER or ERINT as principal (coast in) defenses.
At the same time buying into a unique technology base leverage point with _U.S._ covert design support. And Korean or Tai heavy industrial engineering. As second customer on a realistic deal for 50-100 jets, you could end up with a significantly better (25-30% of manufacture?) offset than you are on the JSF as Tier 2 partners.
Theoretically, you could even do a major tradeup on price for the JSF or F-22 (or big wing Flubber) in a _silver bullet_ (escort force with LRAAM) once you had the basic three-tier system in place.
Of course this would effectively mean retiring the F-111s _immediately_ and conserving the F/A-18s down to perhaps 20 jets in the best condition.
But again, the real definition of a power player in the military procurement world is the ministry which says "We have a window in which we can do the drawdown while making the transformation happen..." as a function of layaway _legislative funding guarantees_ (can't touch this) of budgetary power for a future reentry to market once the technology is present to make it happen.
>>
The target will be gone before you get your aircraft gets anywhere near it. This is why the USA couldn't stop the Scuds in Western Iraq in the first Gulf war. If you are loitering over a battlefield for an extended period you're going to want more than 1 or 2 guided munitions or else you will have wasted your time. Your aircraft could have been more profitably employed elsewhere.
>>
I couldn't agree more though I think the real problem the USAF had in 1991 was that they had a barely functional E-8 and no gapfiller (with realtime relay) like a TESAR Predator or RQ-4. It didn't help that the LANTIRN was far from being all that it was supposed to (not ATR, limited altitude stabs, high failure rate.)
These days, if you can MTI the threat, you can track him until the fighter can overlay it's own sensors and then 2 vs. 20 PGM doesn't matter except as how it effects your (L@D) loiter and performance behind the tanker.
The more interesting argument, for me, being how /defenses/ have changed. The APY-3 has a limited ability to track TBMs on the rise. ERINT does what the PAC-2 was supposed to. THAAD is coming along and ABL is coming along faster. With ATL now also a C-130 if not F-35 option and M-THEL prototypes shooting down artillery rounds; it seems to me that the arching ballistic fire is not worth as much as it once was and while a system that can sustain Mach at lower levels and/or vari-traj dump a spray of guided weapons may yet prove to be a real nuissance, there is increasingly less and less reason to play Wombat Hunt with TELs solely to push them off their best-when-fired-off-surveyed-and-weatherradar'd footing
>>
What air forces in combat tend to do now (if they are sufficiently capable) is to loiter aircraft over the battlefield waiting for the opportunity for targets to reveal themselves. Unfortunately to make it capable and worthwhile employing an aircraft over the battlefield, it needs one major thing: persistence.
>>
Indeed-
http://www.afa.org/magazine/june2004/0604marine.asp
Though there are still some significant operational limits inherent to streaming ops with a host of dissimilar, 'fighter optimized' platforms with but minutes on the clock in the target area because they are as much as twice as over-fence-far from MOB (90-120 minutes in 1991 becomes 170-210 minutes in 2003). It is also unfortunate that even the Marine DASC-direct system doesn't work well (bandwidth pipe I presume) without a SCAR coordinator to pull back the BCL.
What this tells me is that if you aren't getting trade in one regional tasking zone, you may not have the gas to get to another without screwing up sorties already fragged. Which means a waste of sorties overall.
It also says that if you push forward tankers far enough, often enough, _someone will catch on_. And you will end up losing a /lot/ of aircraft, either interned or flat out fuel-killed as a result.
Finally, it speaks to an intentional or otherwise tendancy to bigot the ape into controlling situations where he really is not needed. Because even with Sniper/APG-63V3 or ATFLIR/APG-79 as the best possible baseline, you are looking at a high definition 'eyes on' limit of about 40nm around a given airframe. Whereas, if you stick with systems like AAS-52 and APY-8, you total range footprint of coverage may only be 20-25nm _but_ you can space them out to cover every ground team, every highway, byway and backroad. Even chop up cities into block-sectors with your 'tactical interpretational factor' _on the ground_. Via ROVER like support on a militarized bluetooth LAN.
As soon as you do this, as soon as you let the ordinary grunt do what SOF troopies have been doing since Vietnam, in _calling down the hard rain personally_ rather than through somekind of artificially time-restrictive CAS loop, you will see a magnification in what Air Power does vs. what the 5-rings target set definitions says it should.
>>
The best way to get this is to use a large fighter/strike aircraft (examples: F-15, F/A-18E/F, SU-30, Tornado or F-111). These aircraft possess inherent endurance and payload capabilities necessary for this type of warfare. Aircraft such as F-18A/B/C/D, F-16, MiG29 and the Mirage series do not.
>>
Six of one.
http://groups.google.com/group/comp...liner+refueling&rnum=1&hl=en#93dd3975ded9a74b
Should tell you a LOT about 'just how good' the 2/3rds majority of our comparitively /tiny/ F-15E fleet is. The -229 makes it a whole 'nother airplane but the ops limits are still present.
And there is always going to be the human factors element. 'Just to see if they could' _one time_ they sent an F-15E from Doha over to Kabul. Took them 17hrs. Wiped the crew completely (lifted out of cockpit fatigue).
That's a heckuva lot to be paying into for a 700nm 'self escorting' radius advantage. Because you will _still_ need tanking, just not as much. And because your signature is STILL huge. And because (at least for the F-14/15) there is STILL the small matter of not having a PDF-HARM shot option or what I would call an effective jammer. Which means that the Teeny Weeny jets are still along for the SEAD ride.
Now, compare this to a UCAVs 1,100nm _with 2hrs free_ and no fatigue. Also factoring in the just-like-an-airliner flight profile with no supersonic requirements (no heavy G burner and structural loads or a hamfisted pilot who likes to go there for thrills, no 'fighter' radar with all it's attendent power and reliability problems, no cockpit support in the way of LOX or OBOGS or Drag issues).
All of which brings us to New Doctrine.
While the Feyadin as Toyota Cavalry should not have surprised us (the Russian leave behind partisans were largely similar and had similar high-nuissance value 'roll back' effect on German screen units which in turn cost them big wins at Kiev and SGrad both), the fact remains that THAT is the kind of target set you should expect to see, even from conventional forces. Because it works. Because it lets a small, sacrificial, unit expend /whatever/ (technologic-competency level) fires it has on a direct tactical basis of attrition rather than in the maneuver/marshall phase for which BAI works. And because it is imminently self-sustaining on the basis of 'forage' and local admirers.
Yet even if the mission set is itself performed by regular forces, you should not expect to encounter them on every mission. Because frequently their very insular nature will limit their own views across the horizon as much as your ability to winkle them out from amidst the thronging masses.
So, inevitably, your loiter-for-nothin' factor is going to be pretty damn high, even on a Schmuck vs. SCUD level of encounter expectation. WHY kill aircrew with fatigue. WHY load up jets with useless performance and failure prone equipment, massive quantities of high drag support gear. For an encounter mode which, at best, is going be perhaps 30% of an active ground force here-to-there obstacle negation. And perhaps 5-10% of blocking force/CSS escort defense along approach routes?
I'll tell you why. The Fighter Mission. It doesn't matter that the best fighter on the planet is a missile which can make a second pass. As long as too /idiots/ can line up their lances go a-jousting at each other at 1,200 knots closure, manufacturers will be paid to build jets that CAN do that, even if it destroys the functionality of every other mission element.
And the excuse will always be: "Because the UCAV is a bomber..."
Except it's not.

CONVENTIONAL LANED INTERDICTION

......................Target 1...............Target 3...............................
...................................Target 2..............................................
...........Su-30....................................Rafale............................
...............\/.........................................\/.................................
.................\..............F-22................./...................................
........................**....F-35............**....................................
.........Eurofighter..............................F-15..............................
.............................................................................................
...................Tanker..........ISR........SOJAM..........................

UCAV SPIDERS WEB
......................Target 1...............Target 3............................
...................................Target 2..........................................
UCAV....Su-30..........G..................Rafale..........UCAV....
...............\/..................F........UCAV..\/............................
..........?/.....\?..............O................/?........\?......................
......................UCAV..R....................................................
UCAV........................C..................UCAV...................................
...................................E....................................................
.................................A/A..................................................
.................Tanker..........BMC2.......Area Surv..................

Now, assume that all stealth platforms (including the UCAV) have similar reduced observables in the FQ of around -25 to -30dbsm. And that the robot, because of it's unique design has similar RCS in all sectors (no tails, no big gulp inlets, no canopy etc.). How does the threat tackle them? By nosing around until they reach a nominal 10-15nm range with their BARS/AMSAR equivalent radar? Or using a EUROFIRST type, dual channel, to extend this to 20-25nm?
How do they know which direction to go? There is no linear route corridor, no snarl of jamming and active radar emission. And their own _distributed_ force clusters provide no cue-onto-cue predictor. Not least because, with an airburst, the GBU-39 will travel some 50nm with about 40 inches of miss distance. So the UCAVs don't even have to be over the roads they are nominally blocking.
At the same time, the Rafale and the Su-30, by coming _unchallenged_ in to the spider's web, are exposing themselves to attack by LRAAM (AIM-160 or BVRAAM++, take your pick) whose principal nature is not their autonomous seekers. But their sustained (non parabolic trajectory) impulse and _digital 2-way tethers_.
So that a 'dumb truck' which has 4 SDB in one bay, can fire an pair of LRAAM out of the other, without making a single emission. And an 'ADAAM' (Air Directed AAM) volume illuminator (RQ-4 with MP-RTIP) can sit at the back of the stack and steer the weapons to the point in space where their own seekers can lockup.
If you play the conventional game, sooner or later, the combination of disparity in performance point (limited F-22 endurance in super vs. subcruise) and the linear geometries will put a threat jet (Su-30 or Rafale as baseline) or SAM beyond the frontal sweep with enough of it's own torpedo-spread of MRM to put some serious attrition into the advancing strike force.
But if you can _just sit there_ and let them come amongst you, even assuming casual attrition from ground vectoring, you can beat the threat down by virtue of the very depth into YOUR web which they must come. And the fact that they must retreat back through the missile shots /from behind/ to disengage.
Welcome To My Parlor Super Fly.
If you look at a force on force metric whereby you have the _A2G_ multinodeal sensors to attack any 'ring' of the enemy strategic or tactical asset list you want (and a ground force is not necessary though it does replicate OIF for flavor) because you can SEE what is going on; then by their very mission orientation as 'bombers' you can force the enemy to engage them or lose their fielded forces as much as their infrastructural or C2 assets (which you will end up replacing anyway).
Cope India shows the way folks. By their very attempt to 'prove a need' for the 133 million dollar Raptor, the CMICs in the Air Services have shown how BVR is now the utterly dominant delivery method for AAW. And with ADAAM and advanced propulsion, there is no room or need for the 'fighter' mission as a drain upon the sortie logistics of modern war anymore.
If I were going to fight OIF with such an _effective_ system; I would do so on the premise of putting a country into total lockdown mode. Starting with a propoganda leaflet drop: "In 5-7 days we are coming. 10 days after that it will be over. Stockpile enough food so that you don't have to go out for that time. Any vehicle on the roads during the course of the conflict will be considered hostile. Listen to your radio for further news and instructions."
And /because/ I had (through-sandstorm, 24:7) effective airpower that could not be forced off by TBM attack on airbases. Or the terrible misperception that 'bombers cannot be fighters' (come git sum); I could probably halve the size of the occupational force and quadruple the number of force-axes by which combat was /assured anyway/ (forcing enemy engagement) while maintaining minimal direct-fire, high attrition, encounters that required heavy armor.


KPl.
 

Kurt Plummer

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
>>
I never mentioned anything about unguided or "dumb" munitions. I was talking purely about guided munitions, . Aircraft such as F-18, F-16 Mirage series etc can normally only carry 2, 2000lbs class weapons, unless the range they plan to carry such weapons is extremely short. Other aircraft (F-111, Tornado, F-15E etc) can carry 4 or more such weapons, to a lot further range...
>>
A GBU-12 can be paired up on a TER, either opposite another pair or in combination with LAU-131 rockets, to form an effect and relatively low-drag force option. If you want to do better, drop the underwing AAM and put your jammer inside the damn airframe so that the 310 can go where it should. BRU-61 will improve this yet further and of course tanking forward can be done if there is a deemed need and/or you have a P&D (relatively low value) gas passer.
It is not -entirely- a matter of stores drag. So much as it is the effectiveness, by numbers and crew fatigue for radius transit, that is at stake here. As an example, look at the X-45B/C with about 12-14,000lbs of fuel vs. the F-35A's 18,900lbs. The UCAV can go farther, stay -longer- and is roughly 1/5th the cost. Even though both types (would) have internal carriage of roughly similar types/numbers of munitions.
>>
In addition to which I purposely didn't mention the small diameter bomb as it isn't even in USAF inventory yet, let alone the RAAF. It isn't even on the drawing board yet for the RAAF, which is only looking at acquiring JDAM (or equivalent) from 2008 onwards, 10 years+ since IT was deployed operationally by the USAF!!! The RAAF's precarious funding situation means that it can't acquire such a weapon until the Government specifically pays for it, despite this weapon costing a fraction of the RAAF's current inventory of LGB's...
>>
SDB has gone from being a 64,000 to a 30,000 dollar weapon. Oz did a lot of the highspeed workup with the F-111 as an F-22 surrogate early on. And they more or less 'have the intellectual rights' via AWADI before even JDAM was considered. I think, so long as you don't go Flubberian or French, that access to SDB, at least in it's baseling (no AMSTE, limited DGPS) mode is assured.
Put another way, don't deny yourself a warfighter option of such major leveraging advantagement without at least /asking/.
>>
As to the F/A-18E, you said, "2/I really hope they don't get the F/A-18E...really only because it seems rather slow and not much of a match for the latest russian fighters."
As opposed to our current F/A-18A/B's I suppose? The F/A-18E/F is demonstrably superior in almost every area of the A/B/C/D series of fighters (including "speed", due to it's more powerful GE F404 engines) yet you seem not to have a problem with them?
>>
I forget the exact numbers (I can look them up if need be) but a late model XIX Hornet C has rough parity with the F404-GE-402 in comparison with the Slowmo Buggy. Above the Mach, even the F/A-18A/B does better.
The real question on the Super Horror is what about LRAAM? The tips are not qualified as AIM-120 shooters (IMO, /vastly/ more important than a few more lbst) and the ATFLIR sterilzes one of the shoulder stations. Nobody has yet said that the outboards and even midwing stations are not still sterilized for want of bad-air and clearance issues. While the formerly promised 'centerline only' configuration seems to have been a bite larger than the USN can swallow from OEF/OIF pictures.
Either way, it's the expectation that counts: If you put microloads on a major asset, it's no better than a Bug-1 /because/ it costs more and must itself fulfill the fighter-whale mission to drag them along with it. If you put major loads on the airframe it is _not_ a fighter until it cleans up. And that largely removes the 'multirole' functionality of the jet as well because you fight as you go into an area prepared to do so and if you are 2 tanks, 1 JDAM, 1 GBU-16 and one Mk.83 loaded to the gills, you are not going to be dominant as either a BVR sprintship or a WVR turn and burner.
Speaking of the latter, Hornet pilots have basically stated that the jet is slow to change energy states, unable to maintain or load-more (accelerate) while loaded and a general handful when trying to fly the corners of the envelope (the wingdrop is still there in some areas, the gravel truck buzz is a major annoyance). And for what?
JHMCS and a pair of AIM-9X? No thank you. I prefer the F-16 AMRAAM 4X4 option over a HOBS seeker. Because the former I can take down to about 2-3miles or OUT to about 25. The latter is a 1970's motor pour in a 1990s environment where every competitor is at least an inch bigger.
Without TADIRCM, WVR entry is a _mistake_ not least for the Bugliest because it hasn't the energy or the shot count to leave.
>>
I'll tell you what. I'd back an AESA (APG-79) equipped F/A-18E against an Su-30 in air to air any day of the week, given everything else being more or less equal. Outright top speed is not really all that important these days in my view, as opposed to load carrying ability.
>>
So would I. But only given a very late model AIM-120C7 or 8. And only given full MSI and EA support from several offboard sources. It is the shooter-illuminator system which leverages BVR these days. Without that extra predictability factor on who shoots and who lighthouses, things get ugly. Or at least pointless.
As F-15's being stiffarmed by strike packages of MiG-21/23/Mirage 2000 by Su-30 and MiG-29 proves.
Perhaps most indicative is the fact that the pole+avionics advantage is still leverageable. You put a KS-172 or a turbo-AAM (17ft and 2,000lbs vs. 6-10ft and 250-500) on a jet which can afford to hang quite a few _as a dedicated interceptor_ and all of a sudden IT is the one you have to 'ask about' (Best Clint) "Did he fire at 200nm or at 50?"
Because if he fired at 200, his own missiles may well be forming a Lead Sweep for him (hounds to the hunter). And as soon as you light off you may well eat AA-ARM or an ADAAM recue of a shot fired /minutes/ before you were aware of his threat.

Which is why LO is so essential. Because you need to obviate, as much as possible for as long as possible, both the surface and air threat ability to vector shots as much as shooters in your 'general direction'.
The Bugly Deux is, at best, a bomb truck with a heckuva avionics rig (more than any fighter whale should have wasted on it). At the same time, build rates and overall force structure issues continue to raise questions as to whether it will expand the USN sphere of influence around the boat fast enough to be worthwhile before the 'next generation' of weapons/tactics as much as airframes outmodes it's singular advantages.

KPl.
 

Supe

New Member
Magoo said:
What they also fail to look at is the situational awareness that the JSF's networked and integrated systems will bring to its pilot will far, FAR outweigh the perceived straight line speed and range performance advantages of a couple of dozen dubiously operated Sukhois in the region.
Indeed but at some point, Indonesians will be looking at 'networking' their air assets too. Just on that though - are the Sukhoi's capable of being datalinked or would that require a significant upgrade? If so, could they be integrated into the Saab Erieye platform?
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Thanks for the informative (if rather lengthy) posts. I slightly disagree in only a couple of areas though. The drama's you have with HUG'ing the Hornets, for instance are largely irrelevant.

The majority of the work's done, (and the money has certainly been spent) even the JHMCS and moving map/colour display integration has been qualified on the first 2 Hornets (which have since returned to Australia) and the remainder of the fleet is undergoing this modification in due course.

The targetting pod has been chosen and will be delivered in sufficient quantities to equip 1 in every 2 Hornets. It will be delivered over the course of the next 18-24 months. The new EWSP system has been chosen (with the exception of the BOL chaff/flare launchers, which are still to be decided on). The only thing remaining is the CBR work and the "minor" structural refurbishment is, IIRC already underway on the fleet.

As to our weapons, I couldn't agree more. The RAAF should have had JDAM years ago and should be acquiring the SDB, ASAP. However the JDAM acquisition is only "phase 1" of it's project and I have absolutely no doubt SDB is on RAAF's radar. RAAF also has a "rolling" upgrade program for it's ASRAAM and AMRAAM missiles (RAAF's AMRAAM's are currently at the C-5 standard) and seem to be acquiring new versions of each as they become available.

As to our LIFT force. What's motley about it? We operate 2x squadrons of Hawk Mk 127's (33 in total). Admittedly their entry into service was delayed, however they are going "great" guns now and are due to get a number of very useful upgrades in due course? The RAAF actually raves about it's Hawk's now...
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Kurt Plummer said:
I think the first thing the RAAF needs to do is decide if it still needs to beleager Indonesia yet more and if so whether it wants to do so with-
1. A carrier (even a container ship axial deck conversion) with F/A-18E/Rafale (30-40 airframes at 55-60 million). Or STOVL JSF (10-20 airframes at 104 million).
No thanks

Kurt Plummer said:
2. A CVTOL JSF that can hack a reasonable payload:radius (from landbases) with all-standoff missiles on the first day (S2 or JASSM), supported by a wing area that is larger than an F-15s. (20 airframes at 104 million or more).
This will almost certainly be a part of the solution.

Kurt Plummer said:
3. A UCAV force that costs half as much as the JSF but is, as yet, 'developmental' (50-100 airframes= twice the robopylonage at 3 times the cruise point profile efficiencies for 25-45 million each).
Maybe Tranche 3 will see UCAv as a solution.

Kurt Plummer said:
4. An F-16 force which is fully developed. And quite capable of making range and 'combat persistence' with .50+/E mods. If you buy a tanker or two to go with (50-60 aircraft at 50-80 million each).
Why would we go F-16E when we have the HUGged F/A-18? Tankers are on the way.

Kurt Plummer said:
5. Beg an F-22 and a single tanker, along with a 4-5 RQ-4. (at 10 aircraft for 150 million each).
F-22 is the best 'fighter' there ever was and maybe ever will be, but its ISR and strike capabilities are more limited than the JSF.

Kurt Plummer said:
Myself...
A. I do not like single engine aircraft over water with a pilot involved. I also do not like single engine aircraft which cost more than 40 million dollars.
Single vs Twin was an issue 20 years ago - it's no longer a big factor (USAF F-16C vs F-15 stats). The only time I'd prefer a twin is with carrier ops.

Kurt Plummer said:
B. I do believe the small standoff munitions (after all that OZ did with the Awadi and later MMTD on the F-111, you should be able to call in a favor) change, radically, not merely the ability to hit target-X as a function of limited sorties and maximum efficiency on tankers. But also the /types/ of targets which you can saturate on the outer of Warden's 5 rings.
Agree, but this will apply to any platform they're launched from.

Kurt Plummer said:
C. I think Cope India has finally put the nail in the coffin on 'dog fighting' proving that the InAF does not want to fight the 60km+ engagement. And that the USAF cannot beat them without it (AIM-9X as 20km seeker, 10km motor pipe, on the F-15 vs. MiG-21 Bison with R-73 and updated avionics supported by MFFC Su-30). The day of the Phoenix as 'representative' of the LRAAM _as a mission type_ (Naval AAW in the OAB attrition of archer and scout rather than arrow) is indeed /long past/. But the day of 'look in, shoot in' is NOT. And the only reason it has not been further invested is because the Russians follow the U.S. and the U.S. could not afford to design a weapons system (AAAM) which made the F-14/15 superior to the F-22. And which turned the AMRAAM/F-16 combination into just another ISRM.
Don't get sucked in to the Cope India propaganda. The USAF was quite happy for everyone to believe they 'lost' Cope India, and even let the rumour circulate that they were using AESA equipped jets until someone let it slip they were the 'old' jets. It was a major PR exercise to make Congress believe the F-15's days were numbered and more F-22s were needed.

Kurt Plummer said:
D. If I was just chomping at the bit to prove how good the RAAF was, I would NOT do so with a system of systems approach that was the clone of the U.S. model (and indeed the ROW). I would want something that let those SAS Regimenters sitting on a ridge top call down multiple small weapons for /hours/ _before_ the threat could target a Tora Bora threatened U.S. force determined to set down between village and mountaintop.
I believe the NCW model the ADF/RAAF is setting up is almost certainly the right way to go, and despite it being based on the US (and ROW) model. It may even be even more effective due to the smaller number of ISR assets & platforms we'll have whcih will provide information at a more manageable level, and therefore the important bits will be much easier to disseminate.

Kurt Plummer said:
E. HUG'ing the Bug is a waste of time. I don't care if it's an APG-73 under the hood. That centerbarrel is always going to be a stone beach which plagues naval operations (what, 4G limit in peacetime?) and as we go Lot-III on the Super Horror and start to back out of JSF or begin F-35C deliveries; the tails-per-deck rule will inevitably begin to shrink the USN support pipe on the first generation F-18s and thereby increase costs on yours. Even th Finn/Swiss/Malaysian deal won't help that much.
Too late, HUG is 3/4 done and the first jet is off to Canuckdia next week for the first centre-barrel. The remainder of the fleet will be done in-country, and we've pretty much set the Hornet up now to the point that we can support it alone if we need to. Once JASSM and JDAM are aboard, it is unlikely anymore weapons will need to be integrated, so it'll just be a matter of supporting the upgraded systems which more or less match those of late build USN/USMC C/D models which will be around for another decade at least.

Kurt Plummer said:
Orphaning when your parents die in a car crash is one thing. Orphaning as a function of watching them starve themselves off before jumping ship is a whole 'nother tale.
Really crass and unnecessary anecdote!

Kurt Plummer said:
You can, it just doesn't exist as an armed system yet. How far do you think an SDB would go off an RQ-4? How long can an RQ-4 stay on station at 1,200nm radius?
Not far, and about 12-15 hours @ 1200nm.

Kurt Plummer said:
Is the RAAF up to teaming with say Korea to get there now that the fighter mafia have obliterated all hope of the U.S. leading the pack?
Huh?

Kurt Plummer said:
Again, /from my perspective/ the threat of an Su-30 force alone is nothing to worry about. They can't threaten Oz without all the same goodies that we would use (ACP, AAR, Strike Recce) and that is quite simply beyond say Indonesias purse, even if they could get the the largely Western technology base to pull out the proliferation control rods limiters on sales to the region.
As such, I _think_ there is a TIME WINDOW before any external threat could require you to consider 'super fighters' as a viable modifier to force structure design.
Agree

Sheesh...I was going to keep going, but it's just too damn hard work for no financial return... :eek:

Magoo
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Supe said:
Indeed but at some point, Indonesians will be looking at 'networking' their air assets too. Just on that though - are the Sukhoi's capable of being datalinked or would that require a significant upgrade? If so, could they be integrated into the Saab Erieye platform?
I don't know the details on the Indon's avionics fit, but I doubt they could be networked without significant work.

At the end of the day, pretty much anything can be integrated with anything if you have the bucks, which Indonesia doesn't. And what if they do network their Sukhoi force? They only have four of them and no missiles, and no money with which to buy more, and nothing to integrate them to...etc etc!

Magoo
 

Supe

New Member
Magoo said:
I don't know the details on the Indon's avionics fit, but I doubt they could be networked without significant work.

At the end of the day, pretty much anything can be integrated with anything if you have the bucks, which Indonesia doesn't. And what if they do network their Sukhoi force? They only have four of them and no missiles, and no money with which to buy more, and nothing to integrate them to...etc etc!

Magoo
Ok, I was looking at the future as inferred by 'at some point' part of my post, rather than the 'now. Within the future context; is it not conceivable that they will purchase more Sukhois and upgrade existing assets to more than just a 'gun' platform? Clearly any significant changes and defence enhancements will rely on Indonesian economy performing for this to happen. I understand 'future context' could mean a dozen different wishlist/pie in the sky outcomes but I do think cheaper (Arieye for example) solutions allowing integration into a 'networked' infrastructure and upgrading/buying additional Sukhois are very real options for TNI AU. I'm not sure how this would play at ADF HQ were this to eventuate.

I mentioned the SAAB awacs as a solution to narrow (not close) the gap between TNI AU's and other regional airforces, in part because platforms like the Wedgetail derivatives would be unobtainium (political) even if Indonesian economy is going gangbusters and it was affordable.

Erosion of JSF/networked platform dominance would provide Indonesian govt some political options that weren't afforded it when East Timor erupted. I'm realising that RAAF capabilities have been real political assets.
 

Kurt Plummer

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
AD,
Re: HUGing the Bug.
I would never have spent that money, that way. I would fly the wings off a core force (canbird or sell off the rest) with whatever _minimal_ upgrades (transferrable weapons only, I prefer EO to be internal or at least 'same nation/service' as my followon platform) were necessary to maintain a basic mission which, in this case, comes down to continental ADIZ off a few key cities. 20 airframes tops.
IMO, JHMCS is pyrhicc worthless without a DIRCM and while color maps are nice, there is no real need for them on an ADF with positive vectoring and an already decent radar.
The targeting pod was an anachronism with after Pave Spike. It steals stations, imposes ops limits on performance and unless the RAAF choice is Sniper, I don't see it being particularly followon applicable to the JSF.
Mind you, it would most likely be cold day in hell before I would fly 800nm overwater to bomb Jakarta with a single engine, subsonic, 'limited LO' platform against Su-30s with only two AMRAAM and no hypervelocity DEAD/EA.
Do you get MAWS with the EWSP? Does the BOL come with added Chemring IR 'sprayer' mods? If not, do you get the scabon additions to the basic ALE-39? 90% of airframe losses are due to unseen shots. Of those at least 80% are VSHORADS based. The overwhelming majority of which are heat.
>>
As to our weapons, I couldn't agree more. The RAAF should have had JDAM years ago and should be acquiring the SDB, ASAP. However the JDAM acquisition is only "phase 1" of it's project and I have absolutely no doubt SDB is on RAAF's radar. RAAF also has a "rolling" upgrade program for it's ASRAAM and AMRAAM missiles (RAAF's AMRAAM's are currently at the C-5 standard) and seem to be acquiring new versions of each as they become available.
>>
On the Hornet, AAW /as a multishot weapons system option/ costs everything else. EO MSI goes away with the targeting pod. Without the targeting pod you don't have to worry as much about the assymetric loads for tanks, LGB and pod-FOV but your fuel burn on the sprintup to match the antics of a Flanker is still going to be very high so you are looking at probably three tanks from a land base. Of course this gets to be a losing proposition on the drag issue so if you get tapped at any of several points in transit, you will end up a mission kill as you dump jug to come down to fighting weight.
You will most likely want to keep at least 1 HARM because that's your only residual CEC cross tag capability and since you're an A2G cripple, it's likely that the other element aircraft is is loaded for bear with primary mission ordnance and can't fight or evade worth a damn if you take the 70% more likely S2A shot that is waiting for you in the target area.
If you are both Weasel and A2A, you are now looking at a LAU-115 and paired 127s on one side, and a HARM on the other plus 1-2 shoulder weapons.
And frankly, I wouldn't want to take on a Flanker _division_ with oodles of gas, a huge wing and massive thrust enablement with just four AMRAAM.
Now maybe things are different in Oz, what with the Pig and all. But from a USN perspective, the Hornet is a dated approach that was always second best alternate LWF to begin with. And has aged (and scaled) poorly.
>>
As to our LIFT force. What's motley about it? We operate 2x squadrons of Hawk Mk 127's (33 in total).
>>
Motley Definition (Google)
assortment: a collection containing a variety of sorts of things; "a great assortment of cars was on display"; "he had a variety of disorders"; "a veritable smorgasbord of religions"
Now, /last I heard/ you folks had had MB.326s PC-9s and now the Hawk. Did you ever pick up the 339 or was that RNZAF only?
I don't believe in stretching a pipe that way. Aside from ab initio flight screening and possible undergraduate ROTC work (which should be done commercially) I think that fight as you train should apply across the board.

Deep simulator and classroom work followed by transition to the speeds and engine type/count you are going to work with.
Furthermore, _once you are there_ you should use a system that emulates fully the weapons, systems and cockpit layout intended. Slow as the bug is, it runs rings around the Hawk at both the transonic maneuver and BVR weapons system level.
Now I admit, we are aways off from having the _ideal_ replacement aircraft in service (T-50/MAKO) but given as I have always looked at Oz as being defined by the desert-around as much as the GAFA within, it makes little or no sense to me to pickup training assets that are not supersonic capable, have limited weapons system support (even emulation over rangeless ACMI) and NO ability to function as a continental fill force ADF. When everything that is worth holding onto is littoral and you have but 75 or so F/A-18s to cover a coastline the size of CONUS.
>>
Admittedly their entry into service was delayed, however they are going "great" guns now and are due to get a number of very useful upgrades in due course? The RAAF actually raves about it's Hawk's now...
>>
How often have they (as effectively Hawk 100 variants) deployed to a warzone? How well does their greater MMH:FH and $$:flying hour economics translate into _squadron_ currency and exercise savings?
Given that the JSF is now presented to Congress as a 104 million dollar PAUC and the services (particularly the USAF) are /desperate/ to make even deeper cuts in it's buy totals, how much do you REALLY BELIEVE (given your history with the F-111 of all things) that the JSF is going to arrive on time, and at cost in the range 48-55 million?
I pity those that think FMS, is all bout 'building regional alliances'. It is, has been and always will be about gouging foreign customers to help keep home prices low while generating a bought-in layoff of the technical base for the contractor.
Baaah.
Combine the radius with the cost issues. Start thinking about a fighter AND bomber force of as few as 40 aircraft at upwards of 120 million each. 'Supported by' 33 LIFTs.
And then try to define the bloody warfighter as sorties-per-day to any distance out from the coast while the EU is offering a REAL 40-50 million dollar Neuron as a no-man-rate alternative.
Air 6000 is looking at a missing-link solution as airpower is about to evolve out of all recognition with the current system of systems. And nobody is saying "Retire Early, Maintain Minimums, Wait & _$ave_." as a hedge bet.
Because they are all manned-av obsessive at a time when hunting weapons and DEWS come to define the future of airpower on a radicalist KT-boundary level.
IMO, of course.
KPl.
P.S. You want to _guarantee_ your access to SDB? You _design_ with Korean or Tai help, a platform that has the endurant COP capability to employ them, one by one. As far as I'm concerned there will never be enough praise sung for the SAS boys 'sitting on the ridgeline'. But to make their efforts really shine, you have to have the aperture and the munitions to make the /next time/ more of a friendly-ambush-on-the-offense level of moths to the bug lamp endeavor.
With ROVER and a working UCAV (8hrs at 500nm, 2hrs at 1,000. APY-8 and EOTS equivalent internal A2G targeting) you could find yourselves the most popular GWOTian/GSAVE airpower exponents on the planet. _Even If_ the platform was not full-LO.
 

Kurt Plummer

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Magoo,

>>
Why would we go F-16E when we have the HUGged F/A-18? Tankers are on the way.
>>

Because with what I know of USN/MC F-18s; the entire lot is not worth a single penny beyond plug and play weapons upgrades. At the same time, I do not believe JSF will be anywhere's /near/ 'affordable' and I have limited confidence in the scenario of the RAF needing to smack Indonesia around. If they do, it would be better with a boom fighter than a P&D machine.

>>
F-22 is the best 'fighter' there ever was and maybe ever will be, but its ISR and strike capabilities are more limited than the JSF.
>>

IMO, the F-22 can do one thing that no other aircraft can: Fly 800nm, drop and RTB to turn again in under 4hrs. Combined with the sling-bomb advantage of true supercruise (80nm with GBU-39) and the reduced tanking plus superior all-aspect LO, it's pretty clear to me that the only thing which prevents the Raptor from exceeding the JSF in all relevant _combat_ (not basing mode) abilities is indeed the lack of SAR for the APG-77 and perhaps EOTS.

To which argument I can only say that it would cost a LOT less to make the F-22 dominant than it would to continue the F-35 in the absence of all customers. Which is a rats-off-Titanic surety at the rate U.S. orders are collapsing. Since the JSF is nothing but a pork project anyway.

>>
Single vs Twin was an issue 20 years ago - it's no longer a big factor (USAF F-16C vs F-15 stats). The only time I'd prefer a twin is with carrier ops.
>>

Last I checked F-16.net, 380 out of roughly 2,500 F-16's have been lost. Of those 1/3rd have been single-glowing-hole-gone-dark. Match that to equivalent numbers (say 30% of 15% of 1,763) at REAL costs of 104 million baseline. And you're talking 8 billion bucks.

And we don't fly over water except in theater transfer.

OTOH, if you truly believe the single engine reliability theories, then why waste money on an airframe like the F-35? WHY BUY THE COW WHEN YOU CAN MILK IT THROUGH THE FENCE? There was _one_ SA-6 site in AfG. And rumors run wild as to how functional it was before a Tomahawk blew it to pieces.

OTOH, so long as the threat flies conventional signature jets, the need to fly-LO in a fighter vs. fighter scenario is limited compared to the advantage of AEW&C and ADAAM for a bigger missile fired by a bigger force. With more external pylons.

>>
Don't get sucked in to the Cope India propaganda. The USAF was quite happy for everyone to believe they 'lost' Cope India, and even let the rumour circulate that they were using AESA equipped jets until someone let it slip they were the 'old' jets. It was a major PR exercise to make Congress believe the F-15's days were numbered and more F-22s were needed.

I believe the NCW model the ADF/RAAF is setting up is almost certainly the right way to go, and despite it being based on the US (and ROW) model. It may even be even more effective due to the smaller number of ISR assets & platforms we'll have whcih will provide information at a more manageable level, and therefore the important bits will be much easier to disseminate.
>>

I have never been one to take 'lessons learned' from bad doctrine and make it seem like the outcomes are anything but skewed. As such, Vietnam and the ME are aberrations based on truly abysmal doctrine and limited weapons system capabilities.

When push comes to shove, BVR wins and always will for the force that has the vector and sort and numbered poles to make it happen.

Thus, to me, Cope India proved the obvious which is that the USAF can no longer pretend that the WVR game is a function of the pilot so much as the missile and the engagement criterion /pre-merge/. The Indians fly as much as we do, several of their squadrons do NOTHING BUT A2A, just as the Albino community does. And they have a superior missile (motor) and at least competitive HMDS/IRST combo for the WVR environment.

When we fought them as equals we got smacked hard in the teeth.

If you don't get them to honor the turn signal and totally disrupt their formations and comms _before 20km_, they will nail your hide to a wall _every time_ you play wall of Eagles garbage with a range limited missile.

WVR is a game won by the force that can 'afford to lose the most' (as Stalin once said). And we don't design fighters for that mission because we know quite well the limitations that having a baby onboard imparts to maneuver and countermeasures.

And refuse to make a UCAV that has the DIRCM, Opticals, Dense EXCM and SAIRST that can be thrown at the enemy pellmell in numbers.

>>
Too late, HUG is 3/4 done and the first jet is off to Canuckdia next week for the first centre-barrel. The remainder of the fleet will be done in-country, and we've pretty much set the Hornet up now to the point that we can support it alone if we need to. Once JASSM and JDAM are aboard, it is unlikely anymore weapons will need to be integrated, so it'll just be a matter of supporting the upgraded systems which more or less match those of late build USN/USMC C/D models which will be around for another decade at least.
>>

Sell them off. Scrap the Pigs. Start Fresh. It's that simple. You waste more money in yearly ops accounts and currency training than you get back for useful warfighter capabilities, XX (decades) down the road.

And I don't /really/ see a threat to Oz until that point because China (the only real threat) is SO VERY FAR AWAY from being a power projectionist. By which time, the technology will be so different that anything you buy will be of limited use anyway.

Oh I suppose you could keep 20 of the best buglies for specific 'city not continental' ADF duties on the off chance of a 9/11 repeat being in the works. But I would take the rest of the rebuilds and give them to Spain or whatever other country might be dumb enough to want them.

Hunting weapons and DEWS will destroy conventional airpower dominance in high intensity warfare within 20 years. Leaving secondline theaters that need a platform with major range, tailored sensors, a huge bandwidth datapipe and generally no-flying-monkey ability to be thrown away by random encounter with Stinger-Next.

The JSF will be hugely overpriced and terribly late. The existing Bug cannot go far enough, often enough, to satisfy the stated need to bully Jakarta as both an OCA and Strike platform. The F-111 is profile and systems limited in what it can do.

UCAVs _will be built_. If not by a pilot-protectionist U.S. industry then certainly by an EU or Chinese one which realizes what 'Gen-6' is going to be: throwaway and max-economics sensitive.

Leaving Gen-5 rot in it's singularity of Just So Farcical expression.

Go ahead, buy the missing-link if you want to. I'm an American, what do I know.


KPl.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
As you pointed out earlier, Kurt, the RAAF does not have an unlimited budget, nor does it seem like a wise idea (IMHO), to reduce your air defence capacity to virtually nil until UCAV can (maybe) fill the gaps in your operational capability. Any competent UCAV capability, that can easily fill the role currently conducted by manned fighters, seems to this layman, to be at least 20 years off.

What are we meant to do then for any "limited" scenarios that might occur in the meantime? With no real DCA/OCA, maritime strike or CAS capability our forces literally would be "sitting" ducks.

Limited our legacy F/A-18 fleet may be (though they performed superbly in GW2), they are far better than nothing, which seems to be what you are suggesting.

FYI, RAAF does NOT operate HARM or any other SEAD specific weapons (such as ALARM). This is a significant capability gap, IMHO and may be addressed before the LOT of the F/A-18 fleet as it was an identified capability gap for the RAAF a few years back when they intended to acquire their "family of missiles".

RAAF leadership is convinced the F-35 will be the panacea for most of our capability requirements, at this stage the AIR 6000 project is planned for 3 stages. The first 2 are due to acquire up to 75 aircraft and the final tranche is due to acquire another 25.

The first 2 are almost certain to acquire F-35 in the numbers mentioned. With significantly increased range, far more advanced sensors, a reasonable LO capability (certainly compared to existing non-LO aircraft) and a good weapons capability. They will be better A2A aircraft than our existing F/A-18's and certainly better strikers, plus have a better ISR capability. That unfortunately is going to have to be good enough for RAAF, with our present level of funding.

The Tranche 3 of the AIR 6000 program may acquire a dedicated UCAV capability, however I wouldn't hold my breath, unless the USAF gets one in-service in the next 5-10 years or so. RAAF is a bit conservative that way, and without tremendous resources to "throw" around, that perhaps may be understandable.

An F-16 purchase now, would be pointless. They were evaluated when RAAF purchased F/A-18's initially and the F/A18 was preferred. I see little point in going that way now. Our F/A-18's will be fairly capable until about 2015, when they should be replaced by JSF. Any F-16 purchase (even "Block 60" or E/F models, whatever you would like to call them) would simply limit whatever funds we have available for the AIR 6000 program proper.

As to our LIFT's. The Mk 127 Hawk's replaced our Macchi LIFT's. They are all retired from service now. We now operate a dual fleet of PC-9's as the initial training aircraft and Hawk's, which were designed and modified to closely resemble the F/A-18's in operation, particularly with respect to cockpit operations (cockpit of the Hawk is identical to that of the F/A-18) and even the landing gear of the Hawk is the same as that on the F/A-18...

The Hawk's possess a limited weapons capability, consisting of the ability to employ a 30mm cannon, CVR-7 FFAR's, Mk 82 series bombs and AIM-9M Sidwinders. They however lack a radar, EO/IR targetting system and any sort of EW system (besides those required for it's training role, including radar emulation pods etc). As such they are next to useless for operating in a modern air environment, though they may be useful for some "point" air defence tasks and limited strike/CAS missions.

At some point I'd imagine ASRAAM will be integrated on it, to improve it WVR A2A missile capability. Some sort of targetting pod (possibly the ex-Hornet Nitehawk pods) would be a useful addition as well, giving them an improved strike/CAS capability (with GBU-12's), plus a limited ISR/BDA capability, however the Hawk in RAAF service was never intended for a frontline role and as such it's offensive capabilities will remain modest. RAAF is very impressed with it's performance as a training aircraft however.

Some suggestions have occured recently that with continual massive Government surplasses, ADF may gain a greater share of the funding pie, and our upcoming Defence Capability Plan may contain some surprises such as an increased budget for AIR 6000, allowing the purchase of an additional 20 F-35's, giving us a fleet of 5x frontline squadrons, plus an increased tanker fleet.

Such an increase would be very welcome by RAAF, and would go a long way to margainalising any likely capability enhancements by Indonesia, who remain our greatest threat, merely due to our proximity...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top