Queen Elizabeth Class Carriers Amphibious/Royal Marine Capability
- Thread starter BritishBandit
- Start date
Yes, VERY off topic. No relevance to the thread or the topic at hand
Ocean was underbid, & the yard lost money. She was also under-specced, & IIRC needed some remedial work. Add that cost in & allow for inflation & I think you'd be looking at £500 million or so in ten years time.
But - you can get a comparable ship built for less, if you don't insist she's built in the UK.
Yeah, which is why IMO for that cost there's no way she'll get a like-for-like replacement.
Still can't plug the 2 LPDs replaced with 2 LHDs idea in the 2030s enough, the upper limit of a JC1 has an amphibious capacity that a CVF operating with 40 aircraft including a squadron of F35B (side note, can someone explain why people call it a 'Dave B'?) couldn't achieve in terms of dedicated helo aircraft and Royal Marine capacity, far less if - God forbid - 2 squadrons are deployed.
Still can't plug the 2 LPDs replaced with 2 LHDs idea in the 2030s enough, the upper limit of a JC1 has an amphibious capacity that a CVF operating with 40 aircraft including a squadron of F35B (side note, can someone explain why people call it a 'Dave B'?) couldn't achieve in terms of dedicated helo aircraft and Royal Marine capacity, far less if - God forbid - 2 squadrons are deployed.
Just been reading a bit more of Scram!, VERY interesting paragraph of the sole Chinook to operate during the Falklands War
Considering Wiki puts capacity at "33 - 55", that's some seriously heavy troop movement going on right there considering a standard UK light infantry company is ~100? Kinda makes you think just how much supplies or troops 4 of those pups on a CVF could do when landing troops ashore.
I'm no expert but I doubt you would have a chook lifting that load in the tropics or at altitude.
I would suggest that the quoted max 55 is NOT so for all conditions.
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Obviously not, the effects of the 'hot and high' we hear about in regards to how it troubled the Harrier + Lynx (I believe the Lynx was one that was pegged as not enjoying the environment anyway) for the UK are very widely told so intuitively you'd expect that same with Chinook in some form or another, although you don't really hear about it - in fact I don't recall any stories off the top of my head - the same as you do for the Harrier.
Most probably, but I can only base my opinions on open source material considering i've not got any connections for that type of thing. It's naturally going to be highly subjective, the US Army for example lists 'troop capacity' as 33, I can only go on what i'm given.
Most probably, but I can only base my opinions on open source material considering i've not got any connections for that type of thing. It's naturally going to be highly subjective, the US Army for example lists 'troop capacity' as 33, I can only go on what i'm given.
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Russians had some bad experiences in overloading helicopters. When they loaded 127 into a Mi 26. You may not want to load up your heli every time to absolute max, because your inviting accidents and being an extra slow moving target that is less able to handle bad weather/conditions etc. I think after the russians had that problem, most avoid overloading heli's by that much.
Would like to see the RN using JC1. Could be lots of common training between the Spanish, RN and Australia as JC1 operators.
To be honest, the CVF with suitable heli's will offer considerable amphibious capability. Perhaps so much there may not be a seen need to replace the LPD's with anything.
Would like to see the RN using JC1. Could be lots of common training between the Spanish, RN and Australia as JC1 operators.
To be honest, the CVF with suitable heli's will offer considerable amphibious capability. Perhaps so much there may not be a seen need to replace the LPD's with anything.
That's the catch, overloading helos makes any potential disaster that bit worse due to more casualties. IIRC it's not too good for the engines either loading it past max capacity.
That's my issue with it, if we take a sustained TAG of ~40 aircraft, take away 16 (12 JSF + 4 AEW Merlin) and you've got 24 spots, which is loads i'll grant you that. But considering the other types of helo they plan on operating on a CVF (ASW Merlin, Junglie Merlin, Apache, Chinook), you're either gunna operate a relatively small number of each type or not use a particular aircraft.
That's a grand capacity, 24 slots dedicated pretty much towards amphibious operations. More than Ocean can currently provide. But the bit I don't like is that it means there's pretty much zero chance of ever operating 2 squadrons (24 JSF) as that'd leave ~12 slots I wouldn't like to make that call as to which helos I take along. I know 3 squadrons is extremely remote under the best circumstances, but i'd like to think that if the RN felt they needed 2 squadrons they could have them without hobbling their amphibious capacity.
In terms of not replacing an LPD, the Albion class have zero aviation capacity anyway. I think they're cleared for operating 2 x Chinooks simultaneously but that's about it as they don't have a hanger. They provide 4 x LCVP Mk5 - some say this is enough to deploy an infantry company ashore in one wave - and 4 x LCU Mk10, these puppies can carry a CR2. That's a pretty nice capacity to have and when Ocean is gone they're the only RN ships I can think of which will have any sort of landing craft capability. Most likely scenario post 2030 is 1 for 1 LPD replacement but my personal preference is 1 for 1 replacement with LHDs, meaning there's more likelyhood of deploying greater numbers of F35B on CVF whilst keeping that rotary capacity alive.
Pipe dreams and all that, I know. But it's something i'd REALLY like to see happen, but only when the LPDs need replacing and not before.
That's my issue with it, if we take a sustained TAG of ~40 aircraft, take away 16 (12 JSF + 4 AEW Merlin) and you've got 24 spots, which is loads i'll grant you that. But considering the other types of helo they plan on operating on a CVF (ASW Merlin, Junglie Merlin, Apache, Chinook), you're either gunna operate a relatively small number of each type or not use a particular aircraft.
That's a grand capacity, 24 slots dedicated pretty much towards amphibious operations. More than Ocean can currently provide. But the bit I don't like is that it means there's pretty much zero chance of ever operating 2 squadrons (24 JSF) as that'd leave ~12 slots I wouldn't like to make that call as to which helos I take along. I know 3 squadrons is extremely remote under the best circumstances, but i'd like to think that if the RN felt they needed 2 squadrons they could have them without hobbling their amphibious capacity.
In terms of not replacing an LPD, the Albion class have zero aviation capacity anyway. I think they're cleared for operating 2 x Chinooks simultaneously but that's about it as they don't have a hanger. They provide 4 x LCVP Mk5 - some say this is enough to deploy an infantry company ashore in one wave - and 4 x LCU Mk10, these puppies can carry a CR2. That's a pretty nice capacity to have and when Ocean is gone they're the only RN ships I can think of which will have any sort of landing craft capability. Most likely scenario post 2030 is 1 for 1 LPD replacement but my personal preference is 1 for 1 replacement with LHDs, meaning there's more likelyhood of deploying greater numbers of F35B on CVF whilst keeping that rotary capacity alive.
Pipe dreams and all that, I know. But it's something i'd REALLY like to see happen, but only when the LPDs need replacing and not before.
Although not really fully tropic, in the 80,s we loaded a cook with 2 platoons, fully equipe with packs. Seats folded up, seated on the floor, on your pack, there was no room at all. That was close to 60 pax give or take a few, so loaded with 80 paras, I'm guessing, some were sitting on laps!
I DONT think weight of the personel would be the poblem, just the space, IRC there are 30 seats.
Strangelove
New Member
The new carriers will be great - both of them I hope. Lusty is already scheduled for scrap, but I hope we may keep Ocean for its full useful lifetime, in order to give us a third flat top (of sorts). It would also make sense to keep the present arrangement of one (Albion/Bulwark) LPD on ops and one at extended readiness.