Indeed, from what i've read from pilots deployments in Afghanistan, there's a huge demand for the Apache for CAS, more so now with the Harriers gone.
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Queen Elizabeth Class Carriers Amphibious/Royal Marine Capability
- Thread starter BritishBandit
- Start date
t68
Well-Known Member
With the back flip on aircraft choice for the CVF and the announcement lately that 12 F35B would most likely be the minimum number of fast jet aircraft aboard at any one time. There quite a lot of arguments about the range and load outs provided using CTOL and STOVL aircraft in RN colour’s
It appears that the USMC are using Forward Army and a Refueling Point (FARP) with great effect in Afghanistan using the AV-8 Harrier to reduce transit times in theater, there is a vast difference in the CONOPS between RN and USMC, by using a FARP element if the situation allows to increase the sortie rate would that be something a future RN in conjunction with CVF be worth considering.
http://www.sldinfo.com/the-harrier-...rogging-forward-and-controlling-the-op-tempo/
http://www.sldinfo.com/the-harrier-vstol-and-con-ops/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-04-104/fm3-04-104.pdf
It appears that the USMC are using Forward Army and a Refueling Point (FARP) with great effect in Afghanistan using the AV-8 Harrier to reduce transit times in theater, there is a vast difference in the CONOPS between RN and USMC, by using a FARP element if the situation allows to increase the sortie rate would that be something a future RN in conjunction with CVF be worth considering.
http://www.sldinfo.com/the-harrier-...rogging-forward-and-controlling-the-op-tempo/
http://www.sldinfo.com/the-harrier-vstol-and-con-ops/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-04-104/fm3-04-104.pdf
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What were they say about them? They are purpose built tank killers/CAS?
Best read Ed Macey's Hellfire if you can as it's inspiring but basically, the crews are very good, the sensors on the Apache are very handy for ISTAR, and the Taleban don't like facing them at all. Unlike the fixed wing stuff, they know the Apaches will stick around overhead, watching anything that moves (or just stays still in an irregular fashion)
You need both for different jobs as they compliment each other but Apache is doing great work in Afghanistan.
Or Damien Lewis' Apache Dawn, what those aircraft can do in terms of CAS is indispensable.
For an amphibious operation being able to call on either Apache or F35B for CAS seems like a pretty valuable tool IMO.
12 F35B, 6 Apache, 4 MASC then what 4 Chinook + 10 Merlin HC4 per CVF at a guess? Seems like quite a nice capability to get amphibious forces ashore and give them support, then considering the plan still appears to be that "given warning + in a suitable level of tension" it'll be possible to operate 2 CVF simultaneously.
Chances are if you look at that 'roster' and think "Well that's nowhere near enough!" then it'd be during a "suitable level of tension" anyway.
For an amphibious operation being able to call on either Apache or F35B for CAS seems like a pretty valuable tool IMO.
12 F35B, 6 Apache, 4 MASC then what 4 Chinook + 10 Merlin HC4 per CVF at a guess? Seems like quite a nice capability to get amphibious forces ashore and give them support, then considering the plan still appears to be that "given warning + in a suitable level of tension" it'll be possible to operate 2 CVF simultaneously.
Chances are if you look at that 'roster' and think "Well that's nowhere near enough!" then it'd be during a "suitable level of tension" anyway.
Yea i figured. I guess people just feel a need to complain about everything. And everyone is afraid of being seen as redundant.
There was a lot of controversy over the order, with many feeling that the cheaper Cobra might have been a better bet, and suggestions that it was a make-work program for Westland-Augusta, not helped by the fact that the MOD screwed pooch on the training facilities, resulting in a number of aircraft being delivered straight to storage due to a lack of pilots.
So, it got off to a bad start - in a way, the Afghan war has been their saviour as they're now considered key assets.I believe we're looking at some way of updating them to block III standard now (they started off with a higher level of fit than the US models due to their more powerful engines and a better integrated self protection suite, among other things, but block upgrades since to the 64-D have mostly caught up and block III will be an enhancement over that level)
In other words, a program born in controversy and recrimination, now at least understood to have delivered a very fine working machine with extremely capable crews.
So, it got off to a bad start - in a way, the Afghan war has been their saviour as they're now considered key assets.I believe we're looking at some way of updating them to block III standard now (they started off with a higher level of fit than the US models due to their more powerful engines and a better integrated self protection suite, among other things, but block upgrades since to the 64-D have mostly caught up and block III will be an enhancement over that level)
In other words, a program born in controversy and recrimination, now at least understood to have delivered a very fine working machine with extremely capable crews.
Pretty nice capability to have whilst trying to get a beachhead established. Whilst the day of contested landings SPR style are pretty much dead, to have a 2 or 3 flights of Apaches on call for the following weeks backed up with ~ 1 Sqdn of F35B and that seems pretty decent.
The Junglie component - whilst not being as glamorous as Apaches of F35B - are really the key to any RN amphibious capacity (with Chinooks) and shouldn't be forgotten whilst playing their part in the logistics chain. Deploying L118 light guns for 3 Commando Brigade is pretty cool too
Although when you really think about it, we won't be able to accomodate every helo type we wish on a CVF at any one time in any meaningful numbers. F35B, AEW Merlin, ASW Merlin, Junglie Merlin, Apache, Chinook which - to me - suggests that an Ocean replacement would be a good idea, It'd be able to provide 3 flat tops in rotation and would allow the other CVF or LPH(R) to be able to sustain the extra rotary component that 1 may not be able to cope alone.
I know I know, some hope. But considering what Ocean cost (looking at Wiki it's supposedly ~£230mn in todays money) and how long she's been in service if she lasts to 2022 that's something like 24 years? Roughly equivalent to the projected life of Astute class SSNs? To me that seems like a massive bargain which could - and should - be replicated post 2015 to provide a pretty handsome increase in UK capability. Supposedly Ocean can carry ~800 Royal Marines, that's nothing like any projected figures for the CVF I've seen, i've read numbers around 1800 berths on CVF maximum and with a full airgroup compliment about 1450 will be occupied.
Chances are if the situation comes around the CVF will lilypad Merlins onto LPDs and then onto shore but even then that's still a mighty drop in rapidly deployable troop numbers though isn't it? Factor in that Ocean can carry 4 LCVP which apparently corresponds to 1 RM company per landing of all craft in one go.
In a completely perfect world, i've have LOVED a 3rd CVF but I know i'm in fantasy land on this one
The Junglie component - whilst not being as glamorous as Apaches of F35B - are really the key to any RN amphibious capacity (with Chinooks) and shouldn't be forgotten whilst playing their part in the logistics chain. Deploying L118 light guns for 3 Commando Brigade is pretty cool too
Although when you really think about it, we won't be able to accomodate every helo type we wish on a CVF at any one time in any meaningful numbers. F35B, AEW Merlin, ASW Merlin, Junglie Merlin, Apache, Chinook which - to me - suggests that an Ocean replacement would be a good idea, It'd be able to provide 3 flat tops in rotation and would allow the other CVF or LPH(R) to be able to sustain the extra rotary component that 1 may not be able to cope alone.
I know I know, some hope. But considering what Ocean cost (looking at Wiki it's supposedly ~£230mn in todays money) and how long she's been in service if she lasts to 2022 that's something like 24 years? Roughly equivalent to the projected life of Astute class SSNs? To me that seems like a massive bargain which could - and should - be replicated post 2015 to provide a pretty handsome increase in UK capability. Supposedly Ocean can carry ~800 Royal Marines, that's nothing like any projected figures for the CVF I've seen, i've read numbers around 1800 berths on CVF maximum and with a full airgroup compliment about 1450 will be occupied.
Chances are if the situation comes around the CVF will lilypad Merlins onto LPDs and then onto shore but even then that's still a mighty drop in rapidly deployable troop numbers though isn't it? Factor in that Ocean can carry 4 LCVP which apparently corresponds to 1 RM company per landing of all craft in one go.
In a completely perfect world, i've have LOVED a 3rd CVF but I know i'm in fantasy land on this one
Well now you're talking, remember the cost of Ocean is over 24 years and a CVF should be spread over twice that. Take out the (much disputed) design/set up costs and delays, what is the real deference spread over 50 years? Faced with a general gap in construction...and what would turn the Scottish vote more than the promise of an order for the construction of a high profile 3rd CVF?Pretty nice capability to have whilst trying to get a beachhead established. Whilst the day of contested landings SPR style are pretty much dead, to have a 2 or 3 flights of Apaches on call for the following weeks backed up with ~ 1 Sqdn of F35B and that seems pretty decent.
The Junglie component - whilst not being as glamorous as Apaches of F35B - are really the key to any RN amphibious capacity (with Chinooks) and shouldn't be forgotten whilst playing their part in the logistics chain. Deploying L118 light guns for 3 Commando Brigade is pretty cool too
Although when you really think about it, we won't be able to accomodate every helo type we wish on a CVF at any one time in any meaningful numbers. F35B, AEW Merlin, ASW Merlin, Junglie Merlin, Apache, Chinook which - to me - suggests that an Ocean replacement would be a good idea, It'd be able to provide 3 flat tops in rotation and would allow the other CVF or LPH(R) to be able to sustain the extra rotary component that 1 may not be able to cope alone.
I know I know, some hope. But considering what Ocean cost (looking at Wiki it's supposedly ~£230mn in todays money) and how long she's been in service if she lasts to 2022 that's something like 24 years? Roughly equivalent to the projected life of Astute class SSNs? To me that seems like a massive bargain which could - and should - be replicated post 2015 to provide a pretty handsome increase in UK capability. Supposedly Ocean can carry ~800 Royal Marines, that's nothing like any projected figures for the CVF I've seen, i've read numbers around 1800 berths on CVF maximum and with a full airgroup compliment about 1450 will be occupied.
Chances are if the situation comes around the CVF will lilypad Merlins onto LPDs and then onto shore but even then that's still a mighty drop in rapidly deployable troop numbers though isn't it? Factor in that Ocean can carry 4 LCVP which apparently corresponds to 1 RM company per landing of all craft in one go.
In a completely perfect world, i've have LOVED a 3rd CVF but I know i'm in fantasy land on this one
I suspect the Scottish vote will get close and if the RN pulled this ace out at the right moment it might work.
It might've worked, but i'm not seriously considering it to be a real eventuality if anything a dirt cheap Ocean seems the most likely possibility (but even that is remote, chances are the CVF represents the RNs air capacity for the next 50 years and that's it) considering the cost of Ocean these days was around the cheap end for the projected price of a Type 26 I don't reckon you could go wrong with another, Gives us the chance to see both CVF out and about if she was put in rotation with them.
I've already got a reasonably big "wish list" which won't see the light of day but I can dream!
if anything a dirt cheap Ocean seems the most likely possibility (but even that is remote, chances are the CVF represents the RNs air capacity for the next 50 years and that's it) considering the cost of Ocean these days was around the cheap end for the projected price of a Type 26 I don't reckon you could go wrong with another, Gives us the chance to see both CVF out and about if she was put in rotation with them.I've already got a reasonably big "wish list" which won't see the light of day but I can dream!
Yeah I know, was just more of a hope to see 2 CVF operational at any one time. I do appreciate there are other areas that need the money more.
If the money was available *hypothetically* then I'd prefer to fully kit out the Type 26s (maybe a couple more of these) and Type 45s and/or extra Astute(s), although I do stand by what I said about Ocean being extremely good value for money.
If the money was available *hypothetically* then I'd prefer to fully kit out the Type 26s (maybe a couple more of these) and Type 45s and/or extra Astute(s), although I do stand by what I said about Ocean being extremely good value for money.
If you're getting into fantasy land, I'd prefer a pair of decent Ocean replacements - we have two LPD's (one in service, one in fairly high readiness I believe) - both of which are relatively young. If we could find the crews and the funds for a pair of even austere LPH's in the future, then that'd round out a much reduced RN into something that looked useful, balanced and sensible.In a completely perfect world, i've have LOVED a 3rd CVF but I know i'm in fantasy land on this one
My personal hope with Ocean is that when the time comes to find LPD replacements that they're replaced by 2 LHDs in the 2030s to mould the LPH role into them so there's still the potential to operate 2 "flat top" task groups.
The capacity of Ocean/Albion/Bulwark formed into 2 Juan Carlos style ships - to me - seems like a very decent capability and something which I personally don't think could be possibly to far from a potential reality, although there is a loss of the 4 LCVP which the Albion class carries on davits. But I suppose that's the trade off, is it worth to have a decreased amphibious capacity for an increased airlift capacity?
The capacity of Ocean/Albion/Bulwark formed into 2 Juan Carlos style ships - to me - seems like a very decent capability and something which I personally don't think could be possibly to far from a potential reality, although there is a loss of the 4 LCVP which the Albion class carries on davits. But I suppose that's the trade off, is it worth to have a decreased amphibious capacity for an increased airlift capacity?
Well it seems to be the way other nations are going, so a couple of LHD's with F-35B capabilities would make a lot of sense for the UK. If they are of a descent size the extra space on the flat top for airlift would make up for it, so do you go a LHD which still has the dock ? Or something along the lines of the America Class for the added airlift but without the dock ? Always a compromise either way, but don't profess to know enough of the UK's future requirements on what would suit
I have not read up on it lately, but are the UK and France still floating the possibility of a joint carrier ?
Cheers
There would most likely be some resistance in the RN to building a major combattant to merchant standards such as the JC1.
It is ironic however that some of the longest serving major units of the Commonwealth navies, the Majestic class Light Fleet Carriers, were also built to merchant standards
It is ironic however that some of the longest serving major units of the Commonwealth navies, the Majestic class Light Fleet Carriers, were also built to merchant standards
But they could build them to Lloyd's Naval Standards like we did for the Canberra Class. But the JC1/Canberra Class was just an example in my post, as I am sure the RN would go for an indegenious design
Cheers
Well Ocean, was I believe, although based on the Invincible hull form, also built to commercial standards.
I'd scrub around providing facilities for F35 ops other than just being able to lilly pad down, and back off in very odd cases. Providing the tools, test equipment, armoury racks etc won't come cheap.
I believe the UK and France are publicly committed to co-ordinating refits of carriers (something less of a concern for the UK now it looks like both can be fitted out for Dave-B and the "down" carrier kept in high readiness for much of it's life)
Given our selection of STOVL ops, I guess Rafale can get off a deck with a ski jump but with no arrester wires, I doubt they're coming back aboard