Propeller planes for CAS

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The marines were crazy enough to bring them and could not have brought that many. If one considers the loss rate, it should have been significant.
The USMC deployed 18 OV-10s to ODS and during the fighting maintained one on station 24-7 during the air war and three on station 24-7 during the land war. That’s a mission loss rate of <0.2%. Considering the density of GBAD threat and the mostly flat, featureless desert terrain that is an excellent survivability figure for the FAC mission.

I wonder to what extent desert storm played in their retirement in 95.
USAF retired the OV-10 in 93 and USMC in 94. As to why I’m sure ODS had a lot less to do with it than the fact the airframes were 25 years old and the peace dividend saw massive cuts across the entire force structure.

Existing IRCMs are indeed formidable. I see it like armor vs atgm. Its formidable until the next target gets downed.

They don't come cheap either esp with the newer ones. The cost-effectiveness in low cost platforms is doubtful. Having said that the OV-10s did come with disco lights.
EWSP goes into every platform that faces the threat no matter how ‘cheap’ it is. Be it a H-60 helo or a Kiowa Warrior. The cost effectiveness relates to the lives of the people at risk not the aluminium/titanium in the airframe.

Agree there is a capability gap. However equipment like ROVER reduces the difference in situation awareness for both JTAC and pilots (incl UAV pilots).
Apart from SA there is the issue of ROE which requires human eyes on target for approval. No amount of technology development in UAVs is going to counter the awe inspiring power of the attorneys. There is also the psychological issue of having a recognisable voice from overhead via VHF rather than being beamed around the world from Las Vegas.

Finally of course is cost and opportunity. There is no UAV in service at the moment that can provide the SA required for FAC. Also those in the works are going to be very expensive and putting such a UAV into the FAC role is going to take one out of the ISR role.

Light, propeller driven armed recce aircraft are providing the kind of FAC/COIN CAS capability needed today. They are doing so with converted advanced trainers, utility aircraft and light helos rather than a more efficient and capable purpose designed aircraft (O-2TT, OV-10, 21st Century A2D, 21C Gunship, etc) because the service leadership could not respond quickly enough – or at all – for the users. None of this should be mistaken for them not being up to the job.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

Noted with thanks.

Check out this 1989 GAO report.
http://archive.gao.gov/d24t8/141281.pdf

The OV-10 replacement was due to both age and survivability cited as reasons in 1989 (see pg 25). However, the OV-10s SLEP were supposed to be enable it to last until yr 2010. I'm not so sure it was only due to age.

As to replacement, I deduce from the report that the OV-10 was replaced by the OA-10 (warthog conversion that included the ATHS which also equips the F-16) rather than prop a/c in the FAC role. There were more OA-10s in desert storm and I think only 1 loss due to a SA-9 :)

Despite this, the USAF did issue the CRFI last yr for the LAAR but I have doubts on whether that will be acted upon. We'll see if the USAF does follow up with the LAAR acquisition and in what form.

As to UAV, there is the UAV FAC(A) initiative using the Predator + ROVER as the platform/receiver in both USMC and USAF. Its complementary rather than taking over the FAC role. Its a mission creep and will take time to develop but that's the direction its taking.
 

Abraham Gubler

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks for that link I hadn’t seen that report.

Thinking more esoterically about FAC/CAS in current operations and in potential high threat operations I’ve been a big fan of a purpose built gunship for the role. As an example of this kind of capability you can see the winner of the AIAA design competition for a purpose built AX:

http://aerosim.calpoly.edu/files/Firefox/Firefox_AIAA_Final.pdf

The advantage of this kind of aircraft is it carries a lot of sensors, a lot of crew, a lot of persistence, a lot of weapons and a lot of survivability. The only thing it doesn’t have is low observability but that is because the RFP didn’t require it. LO could be added (at a cost of course) because there is nothing inherent in this type of aircraft to make that difficult.

Circling at 5,000-10,000 feet above ground such a gunship with its high end sensor capability will be able to find the targets and either engage them directly or vector in fast movers. Survivability wise it relies on active defence (DIRCM) more than maneuverability and also its own high lethality (kill or be killed). With 100 rounds of 105mm high velocity this thing would be death for unmasked GBAD, especially with precision guided 105mm being available. The 105mm also gives it a stand off capability for high intensity operations being able to loiter 10km behind lines and still engage the battlefront.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

Thanks for that link I hadn’t seen that report.

Thinking more esoterically about FAC/CAS in current operations and in potential high threat operations I’ve been a big fan of a purpose built gunship for the role. As an example of this kind of capability you can see the winner of the AIAA design competition for a purpose built AX:

http://aerosim.calpoly.edu/files/Firefox/Firefox_AIAA_Final.pdf

The advantage of this kind of aircraft is it carries a lot of sensors, a lot of crew, a lot of persistence, a lot of weapons and a lot of survivability. The only thing it doesn’t have is low observability but that is because the RFP didn’t require it. LO could be added (at a cost of course) because there is nothing inherent in this type of aircraft to make that difficult.

Circling at 5,000-10,000 feet above ground such a gunship with its high end sensor capability will be able to find the targets and either engage them directly or vector in fast movers. Survivability wise it relies on active defence (DIRCM) more than maneuverability and also its own high lethality (kill or be killed). With 100 rounds of 105mm high velocity this thing would be death for unmasked GBAD, especially with precision guided 105mm being available. The 105mm also gives it a stand off capability for high intensity operations being able to loiter 10km behind lines and still engage the battlefront.
Sweet! Reminds me of how I salivate when I think about DE / HEL weaponry on the AC-X.

P.s. Noted I made a mistake as usual on the OA-10 numbers. There were fewer in desert storm (12) and 2 down.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Neat summary by the guru at flight global on the subject.

Irregular warfare offers new role for propeller driven aircraft
Seriously, these guys are 18 months behind the news

C4ISR did a comprehensive article on PD-Cas that long ago - by operators. They detailed all the aircraft currently in use, detailed partial combat reports and looked at the pros and cons.

trimble has just come out of hibernation

It's another example of how Flight Global and Aviation Week have lost their edge and value in this industry
 

Mercenary4Hire

New Member
The U.S. Air Force instead of developing and procuring another new type of CAS aircraft the money would be better spent on converting fifty A-10A Thunderbolts into tandem seaters.

Add a couple of drop tanks in addition to a normal forward air control/CAS armament package and this type would be awesome employing slow speed, high endurance, excellent range and very precise heavy firepower all in a single airframe. Not to mention ultimate pilot survival.
 
The US Air Force is now deploying the OA-1K light attack derivative of the turboprop-powered AT-802 crop duster aircraft, finally plugging the COIN gap left vacant by the retirement of the OV-10 Bronco by the Air Force and Marines in the 1990s.

 
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