PRC Peoples Liberation Army Navy

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Some new images of the KJ-600. And yes, as we can expect from the copy-paste worldchampion, its 'inspired by' the Grumman E-2.

Btw, although IPTN has learned from the production and development of the NC212, CN235 and N250, the N219 is not just "based on" or "a modified Aviocar" like some people claim on the internet.
New nose, fuselage, wings, empennage....designed from scratch.
I can see the logic of them following the E-2 tailplane path because it removes complications of folding fins, rudders etc. The change from a contra rotating prop to a single prop removes another set of complications of an extra gearbox in the drive train of each engine.
 

weaponwh

Member

Well, as biggest fleet actually PLAN already achieve that for sometime. However the biggest fleet with increasingly blue water capabilities, that PLAN still struggling to achieve.
Thus with the latest strive at least in this decade, they're seems going to achieve that also.

Still this also run a question how they are going to achieve effective blue water operation. With increasingly aggressive behavior of PLAN and their quasi Navy the coast guards toward Chinese immediate neighbors, this will create increase spending for Navy in neighborhood.

If I see the Chinese Forums, those idiots ten cents seems only think the opposition for PLAN only come from USN. They're so sure without USN the rest of neighbors will meek down to mighty Chinese will and demand in the sea.
They're seems not graped the idea even without USN the neighbors will combine themselves toward China. The thinking of the more aggressive PLA/PLAF/PLAN will automatically delivered everyone to China demand.

This's kind of thinking that Third Reich hold. Those Chinese Nationalistics grass roots seems not conceiving the idea that combination of their neighbors Navy in the sea still have enough force to dettered PLAN access to Indies and Western Pacific. The idea of the rest of their Neighbors will submit to China whims without US support, seems ingrained in the head of those idiots.

How they're thinking that making adversarial reaction to China neighbors still ok, as long as they 'buy' friend in Africa, Iran, and South America. Those Chinese new friends can not be reach by China without access through their Neighbors.

Hope cooler heads still available in Chinese Administration, although with current administration in China, I have doubt on their continue prevailing.
thats only if China start much aggressively target everybody, i doubt china is that stupid to do that. They are still negotiating code of conduct. so far phillippine already bent to china, malaysia is typically have decent relationship with china, singapore is more neutral, indonesia/vietnam has more issue with china but still rely trading with china, cambodia is more friendly toward china. Thailand is purchasing weapon from china and got alot tourist from mainland. beside each of them on their own has dispute against each others.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
can see the logic of them following the E-2 tailplane path because it removes complications of folding fins, rudders etc.
Well E-2 is the only proven design for carrier based AEW. It's also logical for the Chinese to based some of the design, especially tail sections from that. Also on the Wing and undercarriage configuration.
However I still see the big influence from Y7 on the cockpit and fuselage design. Thus seems it's bit bulkier than E-2. I still see this's as working design, and the Chinese will continue work on that.

Until their Type 003 carrier ready and they can trial that on working Catobar carrier, then they will determine if the design is workable enough or not for carrier operation. Their path will be longer I presume then JF-15 which is basically Su-33 copy. On that condition, they have based on proven design already that can work on the type of STOBAR carrier they're developing.

Now they're entering completely new Carrier environment which they're not having experience before. Their speed to implement the CATOBAR will be longer then when they're implementing the first two STOBAR. They can't relied on Russian experience, thus they have to used whatever espionage data result from US and Western CATOBAR experience.
I'm not even sure their JF-15 can be suitable for CATOBAR operation on present configuration. Their experience with CATOBAR practically only from ex Aussies Melbourne, and that's different environment then US and French modern Catobar.

Thus back to KJ-600, I still see their final design will be based on the results the prototype behavior on real CATOBAR operation. This still take time.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Well E-2 is the only proven design for carrier based AEW. It's also logical for the Chinese to based some of the design, especially tail sections from that. Also on the Wing and undercarriage configuration.
However I still see the big influence from Y7 on the cockpit and fuselage design. Thus seems it's bit bulkier than E-2. I still see this's as working design, and the Chinese will continue work on that.

Until their Type 003 carrier ready and they can trial that on working Catobar carrier, then they will determine if the design is workable enough or not for carrier operation. Their path will be longer I presume then JF-15 which is basically Su-33 copy. On that condition, they have based on proven design already that can work on the type of STOBAR carrier they're developing.

Now they're entering completely new Carrier environment which they're not having experience before. Their speed to implement the CATOBAR will be longer then when they're implementing the first two STOBAR. They can't relied on Russian experience, thus they have to used whatever espionage data result from US and Western CATOBAR experience.
I'm not even sure their JF-15 can be suitable for CATOBAR operation on present configuration. Their experience with CATOBAR practically only from ex Aussies Melbourne, and that's different environment then US and French modern Catobar.

Thus back to KJ-600, I still see their final design will be based on the results the prototype behavior on real CATOBAR operation. This still take time.
When can we realistically expect China to reach FOC on a CATOBAR Carrier with a full on Air Wing? Unless they are a lot more progressed then has been reported, then we are probably looking at somewhere around 2038-40 at best
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Countering Chinese Propaganda Points
thats only if China start much aggressively target everybody, i doubt china is that stupid to do that.
1. How would you explain plans/doctrinal discussions on how to attack other littoral islands in the South China Sea (1st island chain) and the Pacific (2nd island chain) that are published in China’s military academies as campaign studies? The development of China’s operational campaign doctrine suggest that the PLA(N) has carefully studied how to create the conditions needed for fighting and winning against other claimants over these small islands and coral reefs.
(a) For example, in the 2006 edition of The Science of Campaigns contains a new type of naval campaign, described as “attacks against coral islands and reefs” (dui shanhu daojiao jingong zhanyi), a campaign scenario that appears to be tailored to the South China Sea disputes where China might consider attacking islands and reefs held by other claimants.​
(b) The discussion of the campaign is brief, only five pages long. Moreover, most of the discussion highlights the obstacles and challenges that the PLA(N) would face, including the distance from the mainland and difficulties in command, air defense, and logistics support along with the harsh natural environment characterized by typhoons and subsurface obstacles. The emphasis on the difficulties in the discussion of this campaign is noteworthy.​

2. China’s land reclamation in the South China Sea is aimed at pushing its own sensor and weapons range so far into the Pacific that it becomes impossible for American forces to touch Chinese positions without risk to its fleet.

(a) US Navy Capt (retd.) James Fanell has estimated that by 2030, the Chinese fleet will have a surface force of over 450 ships and a submarine force of about 110 boats. In his fifth State of the Nation Address (SONA) Duterte says he is inutile and Beijing is in possession of South China Sea: “China has the arms. We do not have it... They are in possession of the property... so what can we do? We have to go to war, and I cannot afford it, I cannot do anything.”​
(b) Further, China’s Spratly Island outposts’ offer Beijing decisive information superiority against any challenger in the South China Sea. Their primary purpose is not military power projection and the deployment of weapons, but information power. The Chinese bases’ main contribution is to facilitate substantial command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance capabilities in the South China Sea.

3. Working together with the 2 Chinese carriers, the Type 075 landing helicopter dock (075 LPD) built by the Hudong–Zhonghua Shipbuilding company offer a means of power projection into the South China Sea that solves the problems identified in the 2006 naval campaign design, described as “attacks against coral islands and reefs” (dui shanhu daojiao jingong zhanyi). At least three of the 075 LPDs are being built. With 8 Type 071 LPDs alone, the PLA(N) would already be able to project a force of more than 2 marine brigades within the 1st island chain, not to mention the other PLA that can be transported by the 60 or so LSTs displacing between 1,000 and 5,000 tons. By 2026, the PLA(N) would have acquired all the naval platforms needed to address prior logistics weaknesses identified and win in the naval campaign scenario against littoral states that was identified in 2006.

4. Certain Indo-Pacific navies, particularly those of Australia, China, Japan, Korea and Singapore—are acquiring or have acquired the types of force projection naval platforms that, taken together, increasingly provide them with what is required to fundamentally transform their fleets and their numbered naval flotilla. In particular, those systems related to precision strike, and above all C4ISR and networking comprise some of the key hardware ingredients essential to implementing a modern revolution in military affairs. These emerging capabilities, in turn, have the potential to significantly affect naval strategy and operations and alter the determinants of critical capabilities for success in modern naval warfare.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
can we realistically expect China to reach FOC on a CATOBAR Carrier with a full on Air
That's good question, unlike STOBAR that their learning curve can be shorten with the help on their close relationship with Russian, for modern CATOBAR they can't expect similar help on learning curve from US or French.

Thus eventough those ten cents and Chinese Fan Boys in China Military forum so sure Chinese CATOBAR can reach FOC before end of this decade, I'm more inclined with first half of next decade. This in the condition that they can launch and finish their CATOBAR within next three years.

It took more than 5 years for PLAN to gain FOC for Liaoning after sea trials. This with China getting help on learning curve. Without help from US and French for CATOBAR learning curve, I suspect at least 7-8 years after first sea trials they can reach FOC.

Note:
@ngatimozart and other Mod, but may I suggest the posts on KJ-600 and Chinese carrier being moved to PLAN thread. I'm also apologize to dereail this thread on PLAN matter.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Some more footage of the Type 075 sailing, and I'm no deck condition expert but that looks like fire damage on the flight deck aft of the island ?
Type 075 sailing aerial footage (source : Naval News Recap YouTube)
PLAN Type 075 fire damage.jpg

I did a screen grab off your video link and it does look like smoke or heat damage to the deck covering anyway. The Buffer's been a tad slow in getting his painters on the job :D
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Wondering if Chinese heat resistance coating will be in form of paint or some kind of tiles.
Perhaps they will do it after sea trials.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I guess the time for FOC on a CATOBAR carrier will depend on the choice of propulsion, nuclear or conventional, the state of their EMALS technology and the aircraft they plan to use. AFAIK none of their current jets have been evaluated for catapult use. The speed of Chinese military advances has surprised many. Nevertheless there are a lot of hurdles for the PLAN’s CATOBAR ambitions. Pi$$ing off most of the world could have economic consequences that could hinder future mega military programs.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Got this picture from one the Chinese forum. Seems some commercial flight, fly over the yards and somebody take pictures of Type 03 progress.

Well with the Chinese speed so far on ship building, not surprising by end of next year or early 22 they will launch it. Then perhaps take another year to prepare for sea trials. That's why in my post I say next three years they can have sea trials.

However to reach FOC on this first Catobar for PLAN is another different matter. The Chinese fan boys and ten cents in those forums only think that once they launch it and have sea trials, and it will be soon for PLAN to make it operational.

Forgoting even with Liaoning which is STOBAR, PLAN still need around 5 years to reach FOC. They will have to trial their EMALS, they have to trials their Aircraft for Catobar operation, and if everything going smoothly, they still have to train by themselves operating on different carrier environment than PLAN have now.

I have big doubt that China will have smooth Aircraft trials for Catobar. With they can't got experience cooperation from US and French, it will be long uphill process. Heck even RN if currently being transition to CATOBAR operation will still face long relearning curve. This with their own experiences and co-op from US and French.

Let alone no guarantee Chinese Aircraft will prove fast adaptable with CATOBAR.
 

Attachments

weaponwh

Member
Countering Chinese Propaganda Points

1. How would you explain plans/doctrinal discussions on how to attack other littoral islands in the South China Sea (1st island chain) and the Pacific (2nd island chain) that are published in China’s military academies as campaign studies? The development of China’s operational campaign doctrine suggest that the PLA(N) has carefully studied how to create the conditions needed for fighting and winning against other claimants over these small islands and coral reefs.
(a) For example, in the 2006 edition of The Science of Campaigns contains a new type of naval campaign, described as “attacks against coral islands and reefs” (dui shanhu daojiao jingong zhanyi), a campaign scenario that appears to be tailored to the South China Sea disputes where China might consider attacking islands and reefs held by other claimants.​
(b) The discussion of the campaign is brief, only five pages long. Moreover, most of the discussion highlights the obstacles and challenges that the PLA(N) would face, including the distance from the mainland and difficulties in command, air defense, and logistics support along with the harsh natural environment characterized by typhoons and subsurface obstacles. The emphasis on the difficulties in the discussion of this campaign is noteworthy.​

2. China’s land reclamation in the South China Sea is aimed at pushing its own sensor and weapons range so far into the Pacific that it becomes impossible for American forces to touch Chinese positions without risk to its fleet.

(a) US Navy Capt (retd.) James Fanell has estimated that by 2030, the Chinese fleet will have a surface force of over 450 ships and a submarine force of about 110 boats. In his fifth State of the Nation Address (SONA) Duterte says he is inutile and Beijing is in possession of South China Sea: “China has the arms. We do not have it... They are in possession of the property... so what can we do? We have to go to war, and I cannot afford it, I cannot do anything.”​
(b) Further, China’s Spratly Island outposts’ offer Beijing decisive information superiority against any challenger in the South China Sea. Their primary purpose is not military power projection and the deployment of weapons, but information power. The Chinese bases’ main contribution is to facilitate substantial command, control, communications, computers, intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance capabilities...​
i'm refer to directly occupy others island outright and start building bases on those occupied island. even than, if china only occupy said vietnam island, i can only see ASEAN been weary, but not enough to have a united alliance against china. especially given how malasia/laos/cambodia, to a degree thailand relationship with China. looking at how china occupy scarborough shoal, unless i'm wrong, i didn't heard any ASEAN nations significantly help phillippine on this subject. They each have their own agenda/interest too. However, i dont think china will do this for now, given current focus on US, trade war and all that, also india/china border dispute. I see this as potential opportunity for ASEAN to milk both China and US

as for plans to attack, every country has those. remember back in old days, US even have plan to invade canada. i'm sure US/russia/china all have certain plans to invade/attack each other, doesn't mean it will happen. hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

as for land reclamation, its provocative but not enough to get ASEAN to ally against China. we haven't seen them start doing that yet since 2012 when china start doing land reclamation. even vietnam/phillippine has its own land reclamation project, though on much smaller scale. However, if china outright occupy other island and start building bases than i can see ASEAN will bound together against china.

as for their navy, i never heard of any large economy that doesn't spend $$ upgrade their ships. especially given current US-China relationship.

From china perspective, ScS is basically China's monroe doctrine
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
even than, if china only occupy said vietnam island, i can only see ASEAN been weary, but not enough to have a united alliance against china.
Seems from your posts, you're more see the belligerent action by Chinese only to ASEAN. In reality the Chinese actions already bring out reverse response from many of it's neighbors.


This's an example, the idea of Indonesia, India and Australia put common stances, few years ago will be unthinkable. Both Indonesia and India has guard their respective 'independence' foreign policies, and putting similar standing with US close allies like Australia will be unthinkable.

However they're now talking due to common interest on how to cope with rising China. You're not talking on that scenarios if the neighbors are not worries with China behavior.
All three have big trade and Investment with China. Economically China importance are continue rising for all three of them.

This can potentially also bring Japan and South Korea interest later on. Both are wary to each other, and only US so far that can mediated both of them. However now both of them also have to think their increasingly common concern, the Chinese behavior.

China seems think that with Economics dependence of their neighbors on Chinese market and investment, means they will also willing to let China aggresive action.
This's which so far shown adverse action. Perhaps you're right, some of the smaller neighbors like Philippines, Cambodia, Thailand or even Malaysia will take more or less submissive position. However Vietnam not showing that, and other bigger economics neighbors, so far showing more adversarial response than what China hope for.
 
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weaponwh

Member
Seems from your posts, you're more see the belligerent action by Chinese only to ASEAN. In reality the Chinese actions already bring out reverse response from many of it's neighbors.


This's an example, the idea of Indonesia, India and Australia put common stances, few years ago will be unthinkable. Both Indonesia and India has guard their respective 'independence' foreign policies, and putting similar standing with US close allies like Australia will be unthinkable.

However they're now talking due to common interest on how to cope with rising China. You're not talking on that scenarios if the neighbors are not worries with China behavior.
All three have big trade and Investment with China. Economically China importance are continue rising for all three of them.

This can potentially also bring Japan and South Korea interest later on. Both are wary to each other, and only US so far that can mediated both of them. However now both of them also have to think their increasingly common concern, the Chinese behavior.

China seems think that with Economics dependence of their neighbors on Chinese market and investment, means they will also willing to let China aggresive action.
This's which so far shown adverse action. Perhaps you're right, some of the smaller neighbors like Philippines, Cambodia, Thailand or even Malaysia will take more or less submissive position. However Vietnam not showing that, and other bigger economics neighbors, so far showing more adversarial response than what China hope for.
i'm sure there are country do some maneuvering like you mentioned. but an united ASEAN Aggressively against China. I dont think that will happen soon, unless china start invading islands left/right. Japan is also worry about China, and continue to arm itself, but still keep a decent relationship with China due to been one of their biggest trading partner. ASEAN/Japan/Skorea will only tolerate certain level of aggression from china, appropriate action have appropriate response. With US-China current situation, +india, last thing China want right now is alienated ASEAN/Japan/SKorea. So i see china continue arm up their bases in ScS, building ships, some fishing fleet issues etc, but these action not gonna push every ASEAN together and aggressively against China. i dont think they are going do a FON into 12 nm of chinese claimed island like US did right now.

the 3 countries you mention are not in good term with China right now. but ASEAN is more than just indonesia.

China may even try to cozy up ASEAN due to ongoing geopolitical situation. which i think is opportunity for ASEAN/Japan/SKorea. they could benefit from trade war.


also many these countries buying arms from China including indonesia, if diplomatic situation is bad, i doubt these sells will happen.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Well, that's the problem. The trust on China will not doing aggresive action including invading dispute islands or forcefully control dispute waterways is eroding.

Again, the thinking on India and Indonesia willing to let go their non-aliagnce international stance and working out with Australia a known US allies is unthinkable few years back.
The fact now both India and Indonesia talking with Australia on building common stances shown China basically pushing some of the neighbors on common standing.

You seems still put the idea that with China problem with US and India, they will not allienated the rest of the neighbors. Logically China should not do that. Well, that's what happen.

Indonesia used to buy some weapons with China, few years back. However nothing as major system and only limited numbers.
Now there're no weapons system being order or talk with China. All the major system either with Euro, South Korea or US.

The Economics cooperation still there, the Investment also still happening. However more and more the neighbors especially the ones with relative larger economics, begin to preapare counter balances.

That's what seems the Chinese present administration shown conflicting massage to the neighbors. The trust is eroding.
 

cdxbow

Well-Known Member
Well, that's the problem. The trust on China will not doing aggresive action including invading dispute islands or forcefully control dispute waterways is eroding.

Again, the thinking on India and Indonesia willing to let go their non-aliagnce international stance and working out with Australia a known US allies is unthinkable few years back.
The fact now both India and Indonesia talking with Australia on building common stances shown China basically pushing some of the neighbors on common standing.

You seems still put the idea that with China problem with US and India, they will not allienated the rest of the neighbors. Logically China should not do that. Well, that's what happen.

Indonesia used to buy some weapons with China, few years back. However nothing as major system and only limited numbers.
Now there're no weapons system being order or talk with China. All the major system either with Euro, South Korea or US.

The Economics cooperation still there, the Investment also still happening. However more and more the neighbors especially the ones with relative larger economics, begin to preapare counter balances.

That's what seems the Chinese present administration shown conflicting massage to the neighbors. The trust is eroding.
Ananda, I don't think the trust is eroding, I think the trust has gone and will never return. Certainly that's the feeling in Australia. The pro China lobby has gone almost completely silent.

It worries me that the PRC is so willing to readily shed what diplomatic trust it has tried to build up over the last couple of decades.

At least better plans can be made if you have a clear and realistic understanding of other nations than to live in a hopeful fantasy.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
i'm sure there are country do some maneuvering like you mentioned. but an united ASEAN Aggressively against China. I dont think that will happen soon, unless china start invading islands left/right. Japan is also worry about China, and continue to arm itself, but still keep a decent relationship with China due to been one of their biggest trading partner. ASEAN/Japan/Skorea will only tolerate certain level of aggression from china, appropriate action have appropriate response. With US-China current situation, +india, last thing China want right now is alienated ASEAN/Japan/SKorea. So i see china continue arm up their bases in ScS, building ships, some fishing fleet issues etc, but these action not gonna push every ASEAN together and aggressively against China. i dont think they are going do a FON into 12 nm of chinese claimed island like US did right now.

the 3 countries you mention are not in good term with China right now. but ASEAN is more than just indonesia.

China may even try to cozy up ASEAN due to ongoing geopolitical situation. which i think is opportunity for ASEAN/Japan/SKorea. they could benefit from trade war.


also many these countries buying arms from China including indonesia, if diplomatic situation is bad, i doubt these sells will happen.
@weaponwh I remember my history and on 21st June 1941 the Soviet Union's biggest trading partner was National Socialist Germany. In the early hours of the morning of 22nd June 1941 Nazi Germany launched Operation Barbarossa; the invasion of the Soviet Union and for 6 days Stalin went into a really deep depression and didn't do anything about the Nazis rolling his forces back across the Russian motherland. The Russians had trains delivering goods to the Germans as German forces pushed across the border of German occupied Poland into Russian occupied Poland. So just because nations may trade with one another and have economic ties, doesn't preclude them from going to war against each other. War is a political statement and the CCP will be making a political statement first and foremost, because the marxist dialectic demands that. Everything that the CCP does ALWAYS has a political dimension.

You need to read history widely and when dealing with the PRC have a basic understanding of the CCP and how marxist leninsm works in practice as well as the theory. What drives them and what do they want? What they tell the world they want and what they actually want are two different things and you have to grasp and understand that concept first. Next you have to grasp and understand the concept that the CCP does not tolerate any opposition. The PLA's and all security forces, including police, allegiance is to the CCP, not to the nation nor the people, so they belong to the Party, not the nation nor the people, and can and are used by the Party at the Party's every whim.

We do not live in an idealised or perfect world. We live in a real world with all of its faults and dangers. In olden days on sailors charts at the edges it used to be written "There Be Dragons". Well the dragons of old may have disappeared, but there still be dragons today and you seem to be living in a fantasy world rather than the real world if you believe what you are posting.
 
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Shanesworld

Well-Known Member
@weaponwh I remember my history and on 21st June 1941 the Soviet Union's biggest trading partner was National Socialist Germany. In the early hours of the morning of 22nd June 1941 Nazi Germany launched Operation Barbarossa; the invasion of the Soviet Union and for 6 days Stalin went into a really deep depression and didn't do anything about the Nazis rolling his forces back across the Russian motherland. The Russians had trains delivering goods to the Germans as German forces pushed across the border of German occupied Poland into Russian occupied Poland. So just because nations may trade with one another and have economic ties, doesn't preclude them from going to war against each other. War is a political statement and the CCP will be making a political statement first and foremost, because the marxist dialectic demands that. Everything that the CCP does ALWAYS has a political dimension.

You need to read history widely and when dealing with the PRC have a basic understanding of the CCP and how marxist leninsm works in practice as well as the theory. What drives them and what do they want? What they tell the world they want and what they actually want are two different things and you have to grasp and understand that concept first. Next you have to grasp and understand the concept that the CCP does not tolerate any opposition. The PLA's and all security forces, including police, allegiance is to the CCP, not to the nation nor the people, so they belong to the Party, not the nation nor the people, and can and are used by the Party at the Party's every whim.

We do not live in an idealised or perfect world. We live in a real world with all of its faults and dangers. In olden days on sailors charts at the edges it used to be written "There Be Dragons". Well the dragons of old may have disappeared, but there still be dragons today and you seem to be living in a fantasy world rather than the real world if you believe what you are posting.
1938 Britain and Germany were each others largest trading partners. Closeness usually brings conflict as any married person can attest to.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

This article seems based on Video in weibo that being asses by Deino (SinoDefence forum moderator). After see the article and Deino's assessment, seems PLAN will stick with J-15, and seems not moving to J-31 yet as their Fleet Carrier Fighters.

Also their EMALS trial seems going well for them to let the video and pictures come out in Chinese tight control on line sites.
I still don't see China put enough effort for STVOL Fighter as rivaling F-35B, thus for at least this decade up to 2030+, the Stobar and Catobar will be their Carrier forms.
 
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