Pirates

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John Sansom

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The bigger drama that nobody wants to touch with a ten-foot pole.
Part of the problem is that nobody is looking for an 11-foot pole. Maybe a better bet would be to proactively wait the situation out--that is, get really heavy on the alleged illegal fishing; encourage the development of serious reactive capabilities among transiting merchantmen, and continue current military patrols, but without deals forcing the apprehending nations to hand captured pirates over to others for slap-on-the-wrist treatment..

I'm still somewhat hawkish on the treatment of shore installations, while recognizing that one ddoesn't wish to blow the homes of the innocent out of existence However, inland routes interdiction by air (at least) might be useful if applied with consistency.

Having said that, it would be useful to know how the hostage question might be resolved. One doesn't wish to blow them away either. And what about the so-called "agents" handling the ransom exchanges.? Perhaps they might benefit from a little salutary attention.

This all sounds a little too familiar. Maybe a 15-foot pole.....?
 

stoker

Member
Agree to a point.

Back in the WW1 they had 'Q' ships to deal with the surfaced submarine attacks.

Instead of blowing away the next pirate mother ship ( they will start to carry unarmed women ad children on them), all you need is a well armed 8 man squads with sniper type weapons, you don't need massive fire power to take out pirates just well aimed deliberate single shots.

You put these self contained sqads on individual ships as they come in to the pirate zone and take them off as the ship leaves the pirate zone, they would not need to be on every ship, just ad hoc.
They would need clearly defined 'right to fire' rules, squad leader would need the authority to issue this 'lethal force' and be accountable for it, and suitable C.C.T.V./ Video camera equipment to record evidence.
Private guards kill Somali pirate for first time
By KATHARINE HOURELD (AP) – 3 hours ago

NAIROBI, Kenya — In the first killing of its kind, private security contractors shot dead a Somali pirate in a clash that left two skiffs riddled with bullet holes, officials said Wednesday.

The killing raises questions over who has jurisdiction over a growing army of armed guards on merchant ships flying flags from many nations.

There's currently no regulation of private security on board ships, no guidelines about who is responsible in case of an attack, and no industrywide standards, said piracy expert Roger Middleton from the British think tank Chatham House.

"There's no guarantee of the quality of individuals you are going to get," said Middleton. "If you're a shipping company, that could be legally concerning. It's also concerning to everyone if you have individuals with guns and not much oversight out on the seas."

The exact circumstances of Tuesday's shooting are unclear, but the European Union Naval Force said guards were on board the Panama-flagged MV Almezaan when a pirate group approached it twice. On the second approach, there was a shoot-out between the guards and the pirates.

An EU Naval Force frigate was dispatched to the scene and launched a helicopter that located the pirates. Seven pirates were found, including one who died from small-caliber gunshot wounds, indicating he had been shot by the detachment onboard the Almezaan, and not by the helicopter gunship, said Cmdr. John Harbour, the EU Naval Force spokesman.

The pirates had two small skiffs and a larger ship — a whaler — believed to be a mothership for food and fuel.

"Once the skiffs and the whaler had been intercepted it was discovered that one of them contained a dead body that had sustained several small-caliber bullet impacts. Numerous bullet impacts were also visible on the skiffs and bullet casings as well as arms and munition of different caliber were found aboard," said a statement from the Spanish Ministry of Defense.

Spanish forces aboard the warship Navarra arrested the six remaining pirates, took custody of the pirate's body and sunk the larger boat, the ministry said. Spain planned to give the body to the Somali government and transfer the suspects to Kenya or the Seychelles for prosecution if the cargo ship's crew identified the detainees as their attackers.

Legal experts said there is no consensus on who is responsible for investigating the incident, and there are several possibilities: Panama, whose flag the Almezaan flies; the United Arab Emirates, where the ship's owners are based; or the nation which the security contractors come from, which has not yet been made public.

"This will be scrutinized very closely," said Arvinder Sambei, a legal consultant for the U.N.'s anti-piracy program. "There's always been concern about these (private security) companies. Who are they responsible to? ... The bottom line is somebody has been killed and someone has to give an accounting of that."

So far, laws governing private security contractors have generally reacted to specific abuses rather than attempting to prevent such abuses, said Patrick Cullen, an international relations lecturer at the Barcelona-based International Politics Institute and the co-author of an upcoming book on private maritime security companies.

"Regulating maritime security companies is a very gray area," he said.

Violent confrontations between ships and pirates are on the rise. Crews are becoming adept at repelling attacks by pirates and many more ship owners are using private security guards. Pirates are becoming more aggressive in response, shooting firearms and firing rocket-propelled grenades at ships to try to intimidate captains into stopping.

Also on Wednesday, the head of the Navy and Coastal Armed Defense in Yemen said it had foiled a piracy attempt by Somalis against a Yemeni oil tanker that was carrying large amounts of oil to the port in Aden.

The navy exchanged fire with Somali pirates who had encircled the tanker in four boats, before the pirates fled, General Ruwais Ali Majoor said. The navy is still searching for them, he said.

The International Maritime Bureau says 39 ships were fired off Somalia and in the Gulf of Aden in 2008, but that number increased to 114 ships by 2009. Earlier this month there were four separate shoot-outs in a single day between pirates, security guards and military personnel aboard commercial vessels.

Several organizations, including the International Maritime Bureau, have expressed fears that the use of armed security contractors could encourage pirates to be more violent in their approach.

In Somali waters, it is often difficult to distinguish between pirates and fishermen until the boats are very close. Maritime experts have expressed fears that jittery security guards could accidentally open fire on ordinary Somalis.

Pirate attacks have not declined despite patrols by dozens of warships off the Somali coast. The amount of ocean to patrol is too vast to protect every ship and pirates have responded to the increased naval presence by moving attacks farther out to sea.

Experts say piracy is just one symptom of the general collapse of law and order in the failed state of Somalia, which has not had a functioning government in 19 years. They say attacks on shipping will continue as long as there is no central government capable of taking on the well-armed and well-paid pirate gangs.

Associated Press Writer Harold Heckle in Madrid and Ahmed el-Haj in Yemen contributed to this report.

Copyright © 2010 The Associated

It is going to be very interesting to see what impact this 'death of a pirate' will have on the future actions of piracy of the Somali coast, and more important what will be the outcome of the 'legality' of this private security action resulting in the death of a pirate.

Who or what country or legal infrastructure will handle the 'coroner's inquest', in to the death of the said departed pirate?
 
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Kilo 2-3

New Member
It is going to be very interesting to see what impact this 'death of a pirate' will have on the future actions of piracy of the Somali coast, and more important what will be the outcome of the 'legality' of this private security action resulting in the death of a pirate.

Who or what country or legal infrastructure will handle the 'coroner's inquest', in to the death of the said departed pirate?
The UN might look into the matter, although this isn't traditionally their jurisdiction and I doubt anything conclusive will come of any kind of UN inquest.

The Somalian pirates lack legal representation, international recognition as a legitimate group, and any form of organization (they're most;y just isolated pockets of pirate bands operating independently of each other), so it's a bit hard for them to push for international 'justice" or inquiry, especially when they're the ones who have been doing most of the shooting in the first place.
 

John Sansom

New Member
The UN might look into the matter, although this isn't traditionally their jurisdiction and I doubt anything conclusive will come of any kind of UN inquest.

The Somalian pirates lack legal representation, international recognition as a legitimate group, and any form of organization (they're most;y just isolated pockets of pirate bands operating independently of each other), so it's a bit hard for them to push for international 'justice" or inquiry, especially when they're the ones who have been doing most of the shooting in the first place.
Well, somebody is doing a whack of organizational work, most particularly in the area of "organizing" ransom demands and their receipt..

Piracy is, of course, NOT a legitimate pursuit but, in this case, a dangerous symptom and extension of the "failed state" syndrome.

The question of who has jurisdiction over these "problem thugs" is, in pracitcal terms, absolutely clear. It's the vessels and persons under attack.

No doubt, the threat is out there that resistance will cause serious problems for the hostages currently under pirate detention. If any question needs to be puzzled out to a workable solution, this is it.. But, by God, it sure doesn't need any hand-ringing whining.
 

Kilo 2-3

New Member
Text deleted.
Uhh....

Calling the pirates racially-charged slurs won't solve anything, plus it's on the fringe of violating standing forum rules.

Mod edit: No, actually it was violating forum rules. A situation which has since been rectified.
-Preceptor
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Drewid said:
Just asking - what if....

What if for example china or russia decide to earn some respect by solving this problem by using ruthless force? Do you think that burning down whole pirate bases (even with some innocents - collaterall damage must be accepted) with heavy weaponry - thermobaric bombs, small nukes, or just simple artillery fire from ships would have any negative international consequence for them? Or just ordinary UN pacifistic propaganda crap?
I don´t understand why are all involved goverment so cowardly dealing with this scum?
Yes, some maybe innocent somalians will die - but really, who cares?

Rules must be obeyed - and being poor and starving is not excuse. Obey or die !
Sounds a bit fascistic. And if you have rules that create structural poverty then you have a problem. You're creating the criminals. But enough on politics. Nukes are out of the question. The real problem here isn't hunting down established pirate bases. It's the fact that the area will produce pirates systematically. If you want to deal with it you have to basically invade Somalia proper. Could Russia or China solve the problem? Yes. But why would they? It's expensive and difficult. Would meet with some international crying about disproportional use of force. And they would have little to gain. Both Russia and China are much better served politicall by participating in the existing format. That way they are doing something to help. They win brownie points with established players. Get some experience of long range deployments (VMF especially) and at the same time don't have to commit too much in terms of resources.
Yup, everybody's working together. CTF-151 has just completed a joint counter-piracy exercise called 'Exercise Rat Trap' with the Russian destroyer RFS Marshal Shaposhnikov. In the simulated pirate attack, the boarding team from RFS Marshal Shaposhnikov demonstrated their capabilities as they boarded USS Farragut’s flight deck from their RHIBs. This was followed by a search of the ‘pirate skiff’ for weapons and other pirate gear, and resulted in the apprehension of the pirates. All the action was followed by a friendly interaction between the teams of the two ships, where boarding tactics were shared and discussed.

In other news, the U.S. destroyer USS Farragut of CTF-151, intercepted suspected pirates in the Gulf of Aden, whilst undertaking tasking as part of Combined Maritime Forces (CMF). The Thailand-flagged bulk carrier MV Thor Traveller came under attack in the early morning of April 15, 240 km east of Aden by a skiff with seven suspected pirates on board. During the attack, the suspected pirates fired rifles and rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) at the vessel for ten minutes in an attempt to force her to stop.

The master of the vessel immediately radioed for assistance. The CMF unit Farragut was in the area and immediately closed to the merchant vessel at maximum speed. In the darkness, the USS Farragut and its embarked helicopter located the suspected pirate skiff as it was attempting to escape. The helicopter used spotlights and smoke floats to warn the skiff to stop and observed the suspected pirates throw items overboard. A boarding team then confiscated further items of pirate paraphernalia. To prevent the suspected pirates from conducting any more attacks, the skiff was instructed to head back to the Somali Coast.

Pixs cross posted here.
 
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John Sansom

New Member
Yep.....this sure is good stuff. The question remains, though: Is, for example, the UN concerned more about the "optics" of preventive and retributive action than about the "disease" itself. This has been going on for a long time now. and there seems to have been no real action to put paid to it.

Sure, we hear about the occasional clash in which a skiff may be sunk and/or the death of a "pirate" may be a corrollary, But has anybody sent one of those defanged skiffs or "mother" vessels back to shore with the firm suggestion that they inform the elderly, the women, and the children of their home port(s) that they'd better trek inland for a while because an Iowa class BB (for instance) is on the way for "redevelopment" purposes.

A little extreme?: Yeah.....I guess so, but the bad guys could hardly be called moderates and, to date, they don't seem to have received any kind of message. The others--the ransom "admnistrators"-- deserve some very direct attention as well.

Then before the smoke clears, relief, aid, and development teams under UN should move in with meaningful effect as their mandate.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yep.....this sure is good stuff. The question remains, though: Is, for example, the UN concerned more about the "optics" of preventive and retributive action than about the "disease" itself. This has been going on for a long time now. and there seems to have been no real action to put paid to it.

Sure, we hear about the occasional clash in which a skiff may be sunk and/or the death of a "pirate" may be a corrollary, But has anybody sent one of those defanged skiffs or "mother" vessels back to shore with the firm suggestion that they inform the elderly, the women, and the children of their home port(s) that they'd better trek inland for a while because an Iowa class BB (for instance) is on the way for "redevelopment" purposes.

A little extreme?: Yeah.....I guess so, but the bad guys could hardly be called moderates and, to date, they don't seem to have received any kind of message. The others--the ransom "admnistrators"-- deserve some very direct attention as well.

Then before the smoke clears, relief, aid, and development teams under UN should move in with meaningful effect as their mandate.
We are very much part of the problem with the catch and release policy.

*shakes my head in disappointment*
 

1805

New Member
I agree much of the problem is, the rewards are high and the risk very low, with the catch and release approach.

I am not adverse to the private security, but would be concerned about people being trigger happy. Mind even navies can get it wrong wasn't the recent Indian Navy destruction of a mother ship actually a mistaken identity case?
 

swerve

Super Moderator
IIRC the 'mother ship' destroyed by the Indian navy some time ago was a Thai fishing boat which had been hijacked, & still had the Thai crew aboard, along with pirates. Most of them were killed, along with some pirates. One Thai survivor was later picked up by a South Yemeni boat, & taken to South Yemen, where he told his tale. The Indians didn't pick anyone up, whether because they searched for but failed to find any survivors, or because they didn't bother searching, is unclear.

The Indians appear to have assumed that because the boat was of a type used as pirate mother ship, & had pirates aboard, it must be a mother ship.

If not sunk, it might either have been ransomed, or kept by the pirates for use as a mother ship, but had not been used as such at the time it was sunk.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Yep.....this sure is good stuff. The question remains, though: Is, for example, the UN concerned more about the "optics" of preventive and retributive action than about the "disease" itself. This has been going on for a long time now. and there seems to have been no real action to put paid to it.

Sure, we hear about the occasional clash in which a skiff may be sunk and/or the death of a "pirate" may be a corrollary, But has anybody sent one of those defanged skiffs or "mother" vessels back to shore with the firm suggestion that they inform the elderly, the women, and the children of their home port(s) that they'd better trek inland for a while because an Iowa class BB (for instance) is on the way for "redevelopment" purposes.

A little extreme?: Yeah.....I guess so, but the bad guys could hardly be called moderates and, to date, they don't seem to have received any kind of message. The others--the ransom "admnistrators"-- deserve some very direct attention as well.

Then before the smoke clears, relief, aid, and development teams under UN should move in with meaningful effect as their mandate.
Again. Their home ports are hardly the type of sophisticated infrastructure that we normally associate with the words port. Not to mention destroying one of them would do very little. Finally I seriously doubt the elderly even know what an Iowa class is. Might as well tell them aliens are coming. Finally after you're done pulverizing the shore, and leave, they will return, rebuild, and continue.

Again the problem isn't that they want easy money and see piracy as the way to get it. The problem is that in many cases it's the only way they can survive. The problem either requires a permanent solution in the form of statebuilding, in Somalia proper, or to content oneself with the occasional pirate attack, while dispatching limited forces to help protect the ships. Guess which option the politicians picked? ;)
 

John Sansom

New Member
Again. Their home ports are hardly the type of sophisticated infrastructure that we normally associate with the words port. Not to mention destroying one of them would do very little. Finally I seriously doubt the elderly even know what an Iowa class is. Might as well tell them aliens are coming. Finally after you're done pulverizing the shore, and leave, they will return, rebuild, and continue.

Again the problem isn't that they want easy money and see piracy as the way to get it. The problem is that in many cases it's the only way they can survive. The problem either requires a permanent solution in the form of statebuilding, in Somalia proper, or to content oneself with the occasional pirate attack, while dispatching limited forces to help protect the ships. Guess which option the politicians picked? ;)
You're right, of course, Feanor....and that's why I dropped in the final paragraph. First, foreign fishing vessels absolutely must be squeezed out of there ,while at the same time relief, educational, medical, and socio-structural assistance must be introduced on a "big bang" basis. A considerable amount of UN muscle should accompany such an effort. No more scurrying around in New York and hiding in the rest rooms to avoind commitment.

None of that obviates the Iowa Class BB approach aa an inducement to parley without hostage-taking and to indicate that other nations are more than willing to "set t:he scene" as it were.:D
 

John Sansom

New Member
Again. Their home ports are hardly the type of sophisticated infrastructure that we normally associate with the words port. Not to mention destroying one of them would do very little. Finally I seriously doubt the elderly even know what an Iowa class is. Might as well tell them aliens are coming. Finally after you're done pulverizing the shore, and leave, they will return, rebuild, and continue.

Again the problem isn't that they want easy money and see piracy as the way to get it. The problem is that in many cases it's the only way they can survive. The problem either requires a permanent solution in the form of statebuilding, in Somalia proper, or to content oneself with the occasional pirate attack, while dispatching limited forces to help protect the ships. Guess which option the politicians picked? ;)
You're right, of course, Feanor....and that's why I dropped in the final paragraph. First, foreign fishing vessels absolutely must be squeezed out of there ,while at the same time relief, educational, medical, and socio-structural assistance must be introduced on a "big bang" basis. A considerable amount of UN muscle should accompany such an effort. No more scurrying around in New York and hiding in the rest rooms to avoid commitment.

None of that obviates the Iowa Class BB approach aa an inducement to parley without hostage-taking and to indicate that other nations are more than willing to "set t:he scene" as it were.:D
 

1805

New Member
IIRC the 'mother ship' destroyed by the Indian navy some time ago was a Thai fishing boat which had been hijacked, & still had the Thai crew aboard, along with pirates. Most of them were killed, along with some pirates. One Thai survivor was later picked up by a South Yemeni boat, & taken to South Yemen, where he told his tale. The Indians didn't pick anyone up, whether because they searched for but failed to find any survivors, or because they didn't bother searching, is unclear.

The Indians appear to have assumed that because the boat was of a type used as pirate mother ship, & had pirates aboard, it must be a mother ship.

If not sunk, it might either have been ransomed, or kept by the pirates for use as a mother ship, but had not been used as such at the time it was sunk.
Tragic situation. Trouble is Navies are is such a difficult situation, such as the poor Chandlers. If you open fire you could have killed them....but by not doing so they are in probably as much risk.

Agree the failed state is the issue but its hardly an easy one to crack!
 

Juramentado

New Member
Agree the failed state is the issue but its hardly an easy one to crack!
USN leadership is tacitly acknowledging what the peanut gallery have always known - that the military effort is not sustainable long-term, nor is brute force the singular solution to the root cause.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Milita...er-than-armed-patrols-to-fight-Somali-pirates

On the recommendation to arm merchies. This puts us on a slippery slope; if pirates cannot tell the wolves from the sheep, it will become more practical but cold-blooded for the crews to simply be eliminated at the outset, while the cargo and ship are ransomed. Will the shippers have the fortitude for such outcomes? Or is it palatable to continue rolling the dice and paying ransoms as needed?

Either way, a consistent approach by the maritime industry has to be made. Short-term, a strong participation in lethal self-protection may result in reduction of attacks, but a long-term effect is a dramatic increase for insurance coverage, which gets passed down to the consumer. An untidy global morass then develops from what was previously a regional crisis. In the end, there are no good solutions on the table right now. Until this issue gets higher on nations' priorities, it appears we're just going to see more of the same.
 
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John Sansom

New Member
USN leadership is tacitly acknowledging what the peanut gallery have always known - that the military effort is not sustainable long-term, nor is brute force the singular solution to the root cause.

Navy looks for ways other than armed patrols to fight Somali pirates / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com

On the recommendation to arm merchies. This puts us on a slippery slope; if pirates cannot tell the wolves from the sheep, it will become more practical but cold-blooded for the crews to simply be eliminated at the outset, while the cargo and ship are ransomed. Will the shippers have the fortitude for such outcomes? Or is it palatable to continue rolling the dice and paying ransoms as needed?

Either way, a consistent approach by the maritime industry has to be made. Short-term, a strong participation in lethal self-protection may result in reduction of attacks, but a long-term effect is a dramatic increase for insurance coverage, which gets passed down to the consumer. An untidy global morass then develops from what was previously a regional crisis. In the end, there are no good solutions on the table right now. Until this issue gets higher on nations' priorities, it appears we're just going to see more of the same.
Too true, Juramentado. That's why a couple of posts ago I recommended some really heavy-duty action in tthe areas of aid, development, and socio-cultural support and development along with considerable military determination.

Without the willingness to make this kind of move, the region will end up living with it "forever".:daz
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The deployment of a Mistral-sized helicopter carrier with rapid response teams would arguably offer a better mid-term solution then the current mess of multiple warships illsuited for the role, in my opinion at least.
 

Juramentado

New Member
Too true, Juramentado. That's why a couple of posts ago I recommended some really heavy-duty action in tthe areas of aid, development, and socio-cultural support and development along with considerable military determination.

Without the willingness to make this kind of move, the region will end up living with it "forever".
It may require more than that. Opinions will vary, but Gulf War I was won with coalition warfare. The Piracy issue will require coalition diplomacy - we have to convince and empower the sub-Saharan nations and their Arab neighbors to the north to resolve the situation that's happening in their front yard. A wholly Western-imposed solution will not succeed here.
 
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StevoJH

The Bunker Group
We are very much part of the problem with the catch and release policy.

*shakes my head in disappointment*
While using fishing analogies, how about tag and release? Microchip them. Keep it up for a while then nab every single person with a microchip along with all the people who associate with them. Release those who arent pirates, but you'll probably get most of the pirates.
 
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