Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Brahmos is blind without sensor shooter integration

1. IMO, the naval fighting capability of the Philippines is in serious doubt. If they met an enemy fleet at the Singapore Navy’s level of capability, they would be spanked so hard, they won’t know what hit them. The PLA(N), their notional enemy in the South China Sea, is much more capable when compared to the Singapore Navy.

2. Lack of robust sensor-shooter integration means the Pinoys are going to fight blind within 2 days of war start. The Pinoys getting the Brahmos for the Philippine Navy and Army is just bragging rights — I will not take them seriously until they buy the 2nd squadron of MRF for their Air Force.
Still like many in ASEAN, any changes of administration can provide alternative actions. I guess it will depend on how solid the contract that duterte administration sign later on. Solid legal binding contract can occur hefty penalties if next administration want to deviate.

However if no solid financing term contract being signed by end of Duterte administration, then anything can happen.
3. That is why most in ASEAN lack credibility on naval modernisation and fleet renewal. I don't think political observers writ large understand what a big deal this 9 May 2022 election will be. The Philippines had a revolution to oust the Marcos dictatorship in Feb 1986. That revolution is now being completely unwound with the expected victory of Bongbong Marcos (with his preferred VP, to provide dynastic support from the Duterte).

Fleet departures : "Royal Australian Navy personnel from HMAS Maitland line the upper decks to start the decommissioning ceremony at Larraykeyah Defence Precinct in Darwin on Thursday, 28 April 2022." Image Source : ADF Image Library
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4. Navies need 24/7 presence in a number of ‘less than war’, scenarios in both good and bad weather, OPV designs need to enable endurance and persistence in tracking grey zone activities in patrols. The Australians are retiring this class and replacing it with true OPVs for extended endurance.
(a) Likewise, Singapore’s 4 interim Sentinel-class maritime security and response vessels (MSRV) will be replaced by OPVs starting in 2026. The current MSRVs are intended to take damage from ramming in ‘other than war’, scenario against Malaysia — will be interested to see the extended endurance OPVs to replace MSRVs and it’s related CONOPS by the 2030s, to operate with more capable surface combatants. It will take a while to fully develop Singapore’s OPV CONOPS (which I suspect will be even more UAV and USV heavy than the LMVs). The LMVs are flexible but have limited endurance compared to the forth coming 5,000 ton MRCVs.​
(b) I like the upcoming Philippine Navy OPV design (81m x 13.1 m x 3.5m), provided they can develop the needed CONOPS, to operate with more capable surface combatants. In terms of draft, this HHI vessel, with reconfigurable spaces below the helicopter deck, is a way superior design to the KCR-60, with the caveat that this is an apples-to-oranges comparison — top side stability is influenced by tonnage and draft. KCR 60M, batch 3, made a new history for PT PAL Indonesia, because for the first time the procurement of two ships was built complete between platforms and their weapons systems, which is a positive.​
(c) Thats 3:0 for HHI (Frigate, Corvette, OPV) over the course of six or seven years. Under Duterte’s corrupt leadership, the Pinoys had a very, very sour taste from what transpired during the course of frigate program. Now, they seek to blame HHI for local desire for corruption. It is the Pinoy politicians in a position of power would not approve of the tender or RFI (without kick backs). This is similar to the Kang Ding-Class demand for kick backs by corrupt Taiwanese officers and politicians.​
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
IMO, the naval fighting capability of the Philippines is in serious doubt.
Of course it is but that misses the point. After years and years of neglect they are finally taking the first steps towards building up their navy - one has to start off somewhere. The acquisitions of frigates and corvettes is a good start and nobody expects the PN to acquire tertiary capabilities in a such short period. I'm hoping they are able to commit to a certain level of sustained funding over the long term.

If they met an enemy fleet at the Singapore Navy’s level of capability, they would be spanked so hard, they won’t know what hit them. The PLA(N), their notional enemy in the South China Sea, is much more capable when compared to the Singapore Navy.
If the PN wasn't ''spanked hard'' something would be fundamentally wrong with the RSN given it's level of development and the resources it has in comparison to the PN; for decades terribly under resourced and struggling to meet its peacetime responsibilities ..... As it stands all the recent investments made in the PN is long overdue and a good start towards enabling some level of capability; which does not realistically include going head to head against a navy which is far better resourced.

As for the PLAN; what the PN is doing now is not intended to confront the PLAN but to enable a minimal self defence capability and the ability to effectively monitor national waters. The PN has no illusions it has any chance of going up against the PLAN but if shooting did start; chances are the Americans would be involved.

The Pinoys getting the Brahmos for the Philippine Navy and Army is just bragging rights
It is highly significant politically because it sends a message and enables a capability which was totally lacking before but as discussed previously; until or unless they create a strike/recce capability they will be unable to fully exploit Brahmos to the full.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
In terms of draft, this HHI vessel, with reconfigurable spaces below the helicopter deck, is a way superior design to the KCR-60, with the caveat that this is an apples-to-oranges comparison — top side stability is influenced by tonnage and draft
Yes, I don't understand the concept of OPV that Indonesian Navy try to put. The same KCR-60 design also being used as PC-60 or OPV-60. Clearly the design is not for OPV.

PT_Pal_OPV_@_Naval_Defense_2019.jpg

PAL can provide more proper OPV design as they're already shown in Philippines some years ago. However looking on what latest OPV designs come from Indonesian yards, it's seems the clients (TNI-AL) didn't know what they really want on OPV. The OPV's basically all build for Missile boats (OPV 60) or Corvettes (OPV 90) in mind.

Some times when I also look on RAN thread debate on OPV, I just smack my face. OPV is not Missile Boats or Corvettes. Either you want OPV or you want Corvettes. No something that can work as both. At least this HHI design that Philippines Navy choose is a proper OPV design.
 
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koxinga

Well-Known Member
Yes, I don't understand the concept of OPV that Indonesian Navy try to put. The same KCR-60 design also being used as PC-60 or OPV-60. Clearly the design is not for OPV.
This is off topic, when this is about PN's OPV choices.

Indonesian's OPV choices is an interesting but complex topic that merits a discussion around responsibilities for the mission (POLRI/KPLP versus BAKAMLA versus TNI-AL) before platforms. BAKAMLA's currrent OPV80M are proper OPV designs. The stuff that TNI-AL is buying...
 
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koxinga

Well-Known Member
2. Lack of robust sensor-shooter integration means the Pinoys are going to fight blind within 2 days of war start. The Pinoys getting the Brahmos for the Philippine Navy and Army is just bragging rights — I will not take them seriously until they buy the 2nd squadron of MRF for their Air Force.
If anything, the recent Ukrainian conflict has shown threat of shore based ASHMs and therefore, the necessity of such an asset and what role it can fulill.

That said, you are partially correct; I suspect the Ukrainian success in using those ASHMs relied to some degree of US sensor support. How much degree, whether they support that with their own TB-2 survelliance, we do not know yet. This in turn shows the importance of such support.

As I discussed with STURM awhile back, even with a robust sensor-shooter integration, the surviability of these assets seems questionable. They will be priority targets for PLA in a conflict.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
This is off topic, when this is about PN's OPV choices.
This the comment to OPSSG comparison between HHI OPV and KCR 60. The design which also used by TNI-AL for OPV 60. It is not off topic as it is shown the point if you want OP, then used OPV design as Philippines Navy does with HHI.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Max Defense claim the LPD/SSV second batch contract will be announced soon. PAL will get the contract with modified design from their 1st batch of SSV (Tarlac class).

FB_IMG_1654158041364.jpg

PAL actually already being considered as front runner for sometime due to two thing: Commonality with the 1st batch of SSV and affordability. Wondering tough looking on the design that Philippines Navy wants to get as much as possible multipurpose naval capabilities on the design which basically LPD.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member

Max Defense claim the LPD/SSV second batch contract will be announced soon. PAL will get the contract with modified design from their 1st batch of SSV (Tarlac class).

View attachment 49394

PAL actually already being considered as front runner for sometime due to two thing: Commonality with the 1st batch of SSV and affordability. Wondering tough looking on the design that Philippines Navy wants to get as much as possible multipurpose naval capabilities on the design which basically LPD.
A little bit weird to equip an LPD with a sonar. Even if the sonar operations center cooperates with an AW159 Lynx Wildcat, i don't think it is a practical way of ASW-operations.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Some good news. The Philippine Navy has again signed a contract for an order of two LPDs.

From which i understand, the second pair of LPD will be very similar to the first pair and also 123 m long.
 
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koxinga

Well-Known Member
Some good news. The Philippine Navy has again signed a contract for an order of two LPDs.

From which i understand, the second pair of LPD will be very similar to the first pair and also 123 m long.
 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
Contract signed for 6 OPVs with HHI.

The specs listed a much larger vessel that the brochure

94.4 m long (original design 81 meters)
14.3 m beam (original design 13.1 meters)
maximum speed of 22 knots (about 41 km/h)
cruise speed of 15 knots (about 28 km/h)
5,500 nautical miles (10,190 km)
One 76mm gun and two 30mm secondary guns (looks like a single 30mm based on the CGI)





Original design
 
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T.C.P

Well-Known Member
Contract signed for 6 OPVs with HHI.

The specs listed a much larger vessel that the brochure

94.4 m long (original design 81 meters)
14.3 m beam (original design 13.1 meters)
maximum speed of 22 knots (about 41 km/h)
cruise speed of 15 knots (about 28 km/h)
5,500 nautical miles (10,190 km)
One 76mm gun and two 30mm secondary guns (looks like a single 30mm based on the CGI)





Original design
What will be the SSMs on this ship? Will they stick to the SSm-700KC?
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
According to HHI to Build Six New OPVs for the Philippine Navy - Naval News
there will be no anti-ship missiles on board. Only a 76mm main gun and two unknown 30mm secondary guns will be installed.
Ah, in the info graph on the above post, the initital design included 2 ssm launchers, so they changed that.

I have a question, why did the Philippine Navy opt out of SSMs, for this class. I made a rudimentary check, but unless I am wrong they have only 3 surface ships with guided missile capabilities. Is it to do with their naval doctrine? Our navy also has a small budget and they compensate for it by slapping missiles on anything that can float. Phillipines has a much more impressive naval aviation arm though, ours has fewer helicopters than our police.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
It has to do with finances and priorities; nothing to do with doctrine. The PN for years was severely under resourced and it's only in recent years has been able to modernise. It's missile armed frigates/corvettes are intended to give some level of defence against external threats whilst the guns only armed OPVs are intended for constabulary type duties or duties which won't require them to be armed with anything more than guns.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
It has to do with finances and priorities; nothing to do with doctrine. The PN for years was severely under resourced and it's only in recent years has been able to modernise. It's missile armed frigates/corvettes are intended to give some level of defence against external threats whilst the guns only armed OPVs are intended for constabulary type duties or duties which won't require them to be armed with anything more than guns.
They do have a lot more maritime area to cover, makes sense. And those scorpenes wont be cheap, so they had to fund that. But still their future plans include very few guided missile platforms no? Are there any plans to outfit these OPVs with with some SSm later?
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
And those scorpenes wont be cheap, so they had to fund that.
Buying the hulls is the easy part. Establishing a shore support infrastructure the not so easy part; will take time and money. The upkeep for the Scorpenes [as the Malaysians will attest to] is also not cheap.

there any plans to outfit these OPVs with with some SSm later?
No idea. There might be some free deck space. I'll try to ask a family friend who's in the PN but I doubt he'll know.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
Buying the hulls is the easy part. Establishing a shore support infrastructure the not so easy part; will take time and money. The upkeep for the Scorpenes [as the Malaysians will attest to] is also not cheap.
And they jumped straight into a very advanced and expensive model too. We only bought 2 really old only torpedo capable subs to learn and have spent the last couple of years building the maintainance bases for future subs. I dont know the exact amount of cost(the govt never relases info like that), but even with singificant Chinese aid, its been pretty expensive. The heavy expense is one of the reasons we just outright stopped acquiring frigates and capital ships and put our future frigate program on ice for a while.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
And they jumped straight into a very advanced and expensive model too.
To be fair to them; what else can they buy? Not as if it's like the previous decades when cash strapped navies had the option of getting used Oberons or Daphnes for training.

I dont know the exact amount of cost(the govt never relases info like that), but even with singificant Chinese aid, its been pretty expensive.
They only have a pair of boats but the Malaysians got a pair of simulators; dry dock; battery test facility; maintenance equipment for the various things on board the boats; etc. When it was announced years ago that the Vietnamese were getting 6 Kilos; the first thing that I asked was how were they going to establish a shore support infrastructure for a fleet that size.
 
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