Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates

[tonybui]

poor you

poor to Filipino situation. Philipine can not defense herself afront of [Mod Edit: Text deleted. Flamebait.

The Mod Team has done more than enough in other threads to raise the level of discussions by providing links to read. As you will notice, the Mod Team has had to issue a few warnings and ban participants. The irony is that while you are screaming against China, the Philippine navy is also arresting Vietnamese fishermen.

Do some research on ASEAN Defence Ministers' Meeting (ADMM) and the ADMM-Plus which are key components of the regional security architecture. See also the link to the May 2011 Joint Declaration of the ASEAN Defence Ministers, which includes the inauguration of the ASEAN Military Operations Informal Meeting (AMOIM), to enhance practical cooperation among defence forces within ASEAN.

China’s military rise: The dragon’s new teeth
Apr 7th 2012 - A rare look inside the world’s biggest military expansion

...There are three limiting factors...

First, unlike the former Soviet Union, China has a vital national interest in the stability of the global economic system. Its military leaders constantly stress that the development of what is still only a middle-income country with a lot of very poor people takes precedence over military ambition. The increase in military spending reflects the growth of the economy, rather than an expanding share of national income. For many years China has spent the same proportion of GDP on defence (a bit over 2%, whereas America spends about 4.7%). The real test of China’s willingness to keep military spending constant will come when China’s headlong economic growth starts to slow further. But on past form, China’s leaders will continue to worry more about internal threats to their control than external ones. Last year spending on internal security outstripped military spending for the first time. With a rapidly ageing population, it is also a good bet that meeting the demand for better health care will become a higher priority than maintaining military spending. Like all the other great powers, China faces a choice of guns or walking sticks.

Second, as some pragmatic American policymakers concede, it is not a matter for surprise or shock that a country of China’s importance and history should have a sense of its place in the world and want armed forces which reflect that. Indeed, the West is occasionally contradictory about Chinese power, both fretting about it and asking China to accept greater responsibility for global order. As General Yao Yunzhu of the Academy of Military Science says: “We are criticised if we do more and criticised if we do less. The West should decide what it wants. The international military order is US-led—NATO and Asian bilateral alliances—there is nothing like the WTO for China to get into.”

Third, the PLA may not be quite as formidable as it seems on paper. China’s military technology has suffered from the Western arms embargo imposed after the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989. It struggles to produce high-performance jet engines, for example. Western defence firms believe that is why they are often on the receiving end of cyber-attacks that appear to come from China. China’s defence industry may be improving but it remains scattered, inefficient and over-dependent on high-tech imports from Russia, which is happy to sell the same stuff to China’s local rivals, India and Vietnam. The PLA also has little recent combat experience. The last time it fought a real enemy was in the war against Vietnam in 1979, when it got a bloody nose. In contrast, a decade of conflict has honed American forces to a new pitch of professionalism. There must be some doubt that the PLA could put into practice the complex joint operations it is being increasingly called upon to perform...

Read the above links/articles before commenting so as to raise your game and demonstrate an understanding the geo-political background (i.e. the role of ASEAN and its dialogue partners); or shut your gap.]
Im Vietnamese,. I share with your feeling, it is just the same happening in Vietnam, and absolutely support to you. So if Filipino lose, vietnam will be loosed too

I think Panatag case just the lesson that you rely on US too much, then US is losing its power now. It s just a chinese test to see how weak US is now. The best thing we should do is stay together in ASEAN, [Mod Edit: Text deleted. Flamebait.

DT is not the place to discuss politics. However, if there are articles dealing with geo-political matters that are related to acquistions or actions of the Phlipppine navy (to provide a context), you are welcome to provide a link to them and provide further comments. The just ended standoff between China and the Philippines over a disputed shoal in the South China Sea is a painful reminder of Manila’s maritime weakness.

Please do not stray from the topic at hand. The Mod Team is not going to tolerate nationalistic fan-boys (from any country). The plain fact is that China is ASEAN's biggest trading partner, with two-way trade to surpass US$350 billion in 2011. China-Philippines trade amounted to US$27.7 billion in 2010, making China the third largest trade partner of the Philippines and in terms of aid China provides something like 3 to 4 times more aid to the Philippines than the US. And in economic terms, members of ASEAN are in the orbit of China's economy and their soft power approach to econmic integration (for more details see this carnegie endowment article on 'Implications of Chinese Soft Power'). Regardless of what ASEAN does militarily, our economic interests in China will be devastated by any serious conflict between PRC and any member of ASEAN. This logic applies to all the Northeast Asian states, Australia and NZ whose economic capacity is fundamentally contingent on uninterrupted maritime and telecommunications flows – the first casualty of war in the Pacific and the South China Sea.]
if i m Vietnamese leader, i should send Vietnamese ships to support and encourage Philippines. Unfortunately the leader is too cowardly to support any one against chinese.
We look like sheeps and chinese will get meat one by one.
[Mod Edit: Enjoy your stay but note that observing the forum rules is a requirement and not an option. Posting other spam like nonsense will result in a short holiday away from the forum. Learn to spell and type sentences in full if you wish to post in future.

Red or maroon text is a warning given to members of a thread. When you see a mod text in your post, do not delete it and there is no need to respond to it. Kindly observe the usual forum decorum and there will be no further reminders.

Read the Forum Rules before posting again. General warning issued for going off-topic to any and all in the thread.]

 

[Belesari]

The Hamiltons are fitted for but not with harpoons. When you price the costs of harpoons and Phalanx CIWS, you will understand why the USCG kept them as they are still useful and can be installed on other USCG ships. If the Philippines want harpoons and Phalanx CIWS, buy them from their manufacturers.

Oh yea i understand how much both cost. And the Coast guard which is always underfunded needs those millions.

 

[Belesari]

I have no objection on the Philippines on buying military equipment from USA. I am a former filipino now a US citizen. Since Philippines is a poor and developing country. It would be wise for the country to partner with US, Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam, Indonesia, Pakistan, India and other country on technological transfer and partner production of military defense equipment. So in the future it can develop its own military defense equipment.

Yea i think one of the best area's for the philippines to consentrate if they want to start some kind of defense industry is simply at patrol boats and Corvetts. That and COIN aircraft.

 

[KGB]

Any PN ships out there are sitting ducks to submarines, and ASW is a losing proposition: it will tie up a lot of the Philippines' defence budget just to protect against one or two subs.

The patrol vessels only need to be good enough to catch pirates and poachers, as well as to fly the flag. They will be vulnerable no matter what, so it's better if they're numerous and cheap. Their real role will be like the US troops in the DMZ between NK and SK.

An airbase in Palawan and perhaps one or two ssk's seems to be a better use for limited resources. Attempting to match the PLAN ship to ship would be like early 20th century Germany trying to match the Royal Navy on the surface - and ending up with an expensive white elephant.

 

[Zhaow]

For the Philippine Navy, they need a sizable navy that can defend itself. For them, they need to center their Navy around a Multi Role Frigate that dose both ASW, ASUW and basic Air defense.

I would look at getting a used Multi Role frigate from Italy such as the Maestrale class frigate or Lupo class frigate. The other option would be to go to Russia and get either a Neustrashimyy class frigate,Krivak class frigate, Gepard class frigate or the Steregushchy class corvette. If they can afford it, They can look at getting a used Sovremenny class destroyer or a used Udaloy class destroyer.

For their Patrol force, center it around the Hamilton class Frigate with Minerva class corvette Comandanti'' class, Cassiopea class patrol vessel or the Steregushchy class corvette.

For their ambitious Submarine plans, I would look towards either a Kilo class, Lada class SSK or a used type 209.

For their Amphibious ops, I would look at getting either a Endurance class landing platform dock ship or a used Raleigh class amphibious transport dock,Makassar class landing platform dock

For their helicopter force, Look towards either a Lynx helicopter. For their Philippine Marines, I would look at getting them a used AH-1 from the US marines.

For Coastal Defense, look at getting either a Harpoon missile system or the Exocet missile system

[General warning to all in this thread: Kindly follow the forum rules and do not spam this thread with wish list nonsense, as there are a number of posts here that are lacking in thought and quality (a laundry list of what to buy without regard to national defence budgets and prior track record are frowned upon). If you have an opinion feel free to share it but remember to provide sources for your facts, where possible.

And if you are faced with a source challenge, please either provide the source or have the good graces to retract your prior statement in your next post. The Mod Team has no problem banning members who have been warned to preserve the quality of participation.

@Zhaow, you are hereby officially warned about making more spam like posts, which you have done in the Philippine air force thread and in this navy thread. One of the key features of this forum is that it is moderated and there is a minimum standard expected. Meet these standards or stop posting.

For the senior members, we would really appreciate your help in reminding new members to follow the Forum Rules and to lead by example. Many thanks in advance. ]

 

[Belesari]

The problem is they can neither afford to buy nor maintain those ships and equipment.

For the Philippine Navy, they need a sizable navy that can defend itself. For them, they need to center their Navy around a Multi Role Frigate that dose both ASW, ASUW and basic Air defense.

I would look at getting a used Multi Role frigate from Italy such as the Maestrale class frigate or Lupo class frigate. The other option would be to go to Russia and get either a Neustrashimyy class frigate,Krivak class frigate, Gepard class frigate or the Steregushchy class corvette. If they can afford it, They can look at getting a used Sovremenny class destroyer or a used Udaloy class destroyer.

For their Patrol force, center it around the Hamilton class Frigate with Minerva class corvette Comandanti'' class, Cassiopea class patrol vessel or the Steregushchy class corvette.

For their ambitious Submarine plans, I would look towards either a Kilo class, Lada class SSK or a used type 209.

For their Amphibious ops, I would look at getting either a Endurance class landing platform dock ship or a used Raleigh class amphibious transport dock,Makassar class landing platform dock

For their helicopter force, Look towards either a Lynx helicopter. For their Philippine Marines, I would look at getting them a used AH-1 from the US marines.

For Coastal Defense, look at getting either a Harpoon missile system or the Exocet missile system

 

[Zhaow]

The problem is they can neither afford to buy nor maintain those ships and equipment.

That's why the Philippine Navy has no standing Navy to defend it's self or it's country.
[Text deleted as troll bait. We do not tolerate childish rubbish here. Learn to discuss matters in a respectful manner.

@Zhaow, you are hereby officially warned for trolling. Read the forum rules or stop posting.]

 

[STURM]

That's why the Philippine Navy has no standing Navy to defend it's self or it's country. [Text deleted as troll bait. We do not tolerate childish rubbish here. Learn to discuss matters in a respectful manner.

@Zhaow, you are hereby officially warned for trolling. Read the forum rules or stop posting.].

What on earth are you on about??? Given that the PN has constantly been underfunded and neglected by the Philippine government, it is doing the best it can with its existing capabilities. Irrespective of how much funding the PN gets, if China wanted to 'push the PN around', it could still do so.

 

[ed famie]

The Hamiltons are fitted for but not with harpoons. When you price the costs of harpoons and Phalanx CIWS, you will understand why the USCG kept them as they are still useful and can be installed on other USCG ships. If the Philippines want harpoons and Phalanx CIWS, buy them from their manufacturers.

Sir i have read in Defense Studies.Blogspot.com that the Japanese Government will also help in upgrading or help the PN to acquire some vessels. it was also written in the Japanese newspaper the Nihon Keizai Shimbun that some of their Japanese Coast Guard ship are ready for disposed and before the end of this year it might be transfer, is the Shiretoko class endurance cutters of the japanese coast guard cutters are they comparable to hamilton cutters? caused i presumed it is the shiretoko cutters are the one the japanese are referring to. thank you sir

 

[boomerdl]

Sir i have read in Defense Studies.Blogspot.com that the Japanese Government will also help in upgrading or help the PN to acquire some vessels. it was also written in the Japanese newspaper the Nihon Keizai Shimbun that some of their Japanese Coast Guard ship are ready for disposed and before the end of this year it might be transfer, is the Shiretoko class endurance cutters of the japanese coast guard cutters are they comparable to hamilton cutters? caused i presumed it is the shiretoko cutters are the one the japanese are referring to. thank you sir

I must first aplogize, I'm a newby to this forum. Based on the things that I've read so far, the new president of the Philippines is intent on improving the country's defense posture. So enough said, IMHO, the entire Philippine administration must devise a way for them to get soft assistance from friendly countries, i.e., soft advance loans predicated by the vast untapped resources of the country. This is basically a promisory not, so to speak, that once the gas and oil fields are developed, the the Philippines will repay all the loans based on the gas/oil profits, etc. There are so many ways to skin a cat, so if there are countries willing to give an opportunity to the Philippines, that all these hurdles of procuring all these weapon systems can be overcome.

Their are concurrent ways for the arm forces of the Philippines to follow in order to get the training and armaments at the same time. It is just the creative ways to accomplish such endeavors and countries willing to provide assistance, i.e., Philippine people are very smart individuals and they learn pretty fast. For example, pilots have basic fying skills so therefore they can transition to jets and of course they have to adapt to flying trainers, then to fast jets in a crash course, so to speak. Same process applies to warships. All these airforce and navy personnel must attend some type of academy and go through basically an internship to learn and operate all the various weapon and sub-systems. It may take a year or 2 years, but of course it will be based on the individual's capability to learn, etc.

 

[amirhessam]

Iranian Warships Repel Pirate Attack on Philippine Ship

Iranian navy ships patrolling the Sea of Oman saved a Philippine cargo ship from a pirate attack.

The cargo ship, Rosita, with 23 crews on board was on route to the Netherlands when it came under attack by a number of pirates on several speedboats in the Sea of Oman.
The Iranian warships rushed to the scene after they received the help request from the Philippine ship.
The Iranian naval forces' swift action forced the pirates to flee the scene.
The Iranian Navy has been conducting anti-piracy patrols in the Gulf of Aden since November 2008, when Somali raiders hijacked the Iranian-chartered cargo ship, MV Delight, off the coast of Yemen.
According to UN Security Council resolutions, different countries can send their warships to the Gulf of Aden and coastal waters of Somalia against the pirates and even with prior notice to Somali government enter the territorial waters of that country in pursuit of Somali sea pirates.
The Gulf of Aden - which links the Indian Ocean with the Suez Canal and the Mediterranean Sea - is an important energy corridor, particularly because Persian Gulf oil is shipped to the West through the Suez Canal.
Iranian Warships Repel Pirate Attack on Philippine Ship

 

[KGB]

regarding scarborough/panatag:

isn't it more cost effective to deploy land based missiles? panatag's only 120nm away from palawan. the assets can be hardened that way, concrete bunkers are cheaper to maintain than ships.

perhaps russia's willing to sell old stock granits?

 

[gf0012-aust]

the assets can be hardened that way, concrete bunkers are cheaper to maintain than ships.

static targets are immediate and attractive targets of opportunity.

look at how vulnerable the Iraqi HAS were - and they were the most modern HAS then available anywhere in the world. concrete digger weapons have become more powerful since then

a static target might be cheaper to maintain, but depending on how the enemy views its merit in the fight, it is likely to be the first to go south when things go kinetic

 

[Zhaow]

Question, what would you think if the Philippine navy got a Frigate out of the US Coast Guard's National Security Cutter. I heard that Ingalls Shipbuilding, is developing a Frigate derivative out of the US Coast Guard's National Security Cutter. Using the same hull and same design, but adding Frigate weapons, systems and upgrading the hull to Frigate standards. It may not be a heavy frigate, but would be classed as a Light Frigate.

 

[Ananda]

Question, what would you think if the Philippine navy got a Frigate out of the US Coast Guard's National Security Cutter. I heard that Ingalls Shipbuilding, is developing a Frigate derivative out of the US Coast Guard's National Security Cutter. Using the same hull and same design, but adding Frigate weapons, systems and upgrading the hull to Frigate standards. It may not be a heavy frigate, but would be classed as a Light Frigate.

If they can afford it, why not. Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia already equipping their navy with new corvette/light frigate. While Singapore so far is the only one that have recent 'proper size' Frigates program. At least Malaysia and Indonesia have on going program to locally build Light Frigates.

With most larger regional South East Asian Navies already ahead of Philippine on procurement program, is up to Philippine to find money to catch up.

 

[gf0012-aust]

you need to define the mission construct and concept of operations for a given platform, before you can establish whether its light, medium etc....

this boils down ability to fight at a certain level and with or without autonomy against a defined foe.

light/heavy etc have no relevance without such context.

 

[colay]

It's not official but if the donation pushes through, the patrol vessels will be a most welcome addition to the Philippine Navy. While not new, Filipino sailors will make do and put them to good use. There are unverified reports that up to 10 patrol vessels may eventually be donated.

DEFENSE STUDIES: Japan Provides Patrol Ships to the Philippines
Japan Provides Patrol Ships to the Philippines

18 Mei 2012

The oldest 1.000 ton ship operated by Japan Coast Guard is Shiretoko class high endurance cutters (970 ton and 77,8m in length), Japan has 26 ships of this type with hull number PL-101 to PL-128, all ships built between 1978 -1981.

The Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported on Thursday that Japan has decided to provide the Philippines with patrol ships, to support the island country in its territorial dispute against China.

The newspaper said that Japan has decided to provide vessels, including 1.000 ton patrol ships, to the Philippines by the end of the year. The move comes after the Japanese government eased last year the Three Principles of Arms Export, which bans Japan from exporting its arms...

 

[ManilaBoy]

Former USCGC Dallas WHEC-716 was formally turn over to the PN today in a ceremony held at the old Charleston Navy base in South Carolina and was renamed BRP Ramon Alcaraz PF-16 which is the 2nd Hamilton class vessel acquired by the Philippines ...

Coast Guard cutter heading to Philippines | WCBD-TV 2

Coast Guard Cutter Dallas changeover to Philippines completed | The Post and Courier | Charleston SC, News, Sports, Entertainment

http://www.abcnews4.com/story/18598532/cutter-dallas-officially-turned-over-to-phillippines

 

[ManilaBoy]

It's not official but if the donation pushes through, the patrol vessels will be a most welcome addition to the Philippine Navy. While not new, Filipino sailors will make do and put them to good use. There are unverified reports that up to 10 patrol vessels may eventually be donated.

DEFENSE STUDIES: Japan Provides Patrol Ships to the Philippines
Japan Provides Patrol Ships to the Philippines

18 Mei 2012

The oldest 1.000 ton ship operated by Japan Coast Guard is Shiretoko class high endurance cutters (970 ton and 77,8m in length), Japan has 26 ships of this type with hull number PL-101 to PL-128, all ships built between 1978 -1981.

The Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported on Thursday that Japan has decided to provide the Philippines with patrol ships, to support the island country in its territorial dispute against China.

The newspaper said that Japan has decided to provide vessels, including 1.000 ton patrol ships, to the Philippines by the end of the year. The move comes after the Japanese government eased last year the Three Principles of Arms Export, which bans Japan from exporting its arms...

The 12 patrol vessels from Japan will go to the Philippines Coast Guard and not the Navy, they will be a big boost in terms of patrol capability for the civilian agency which lacks the assets to perform it's mandated duties... The 10 smaller 40 meter boats will probably be the Bizan class which is 180 tons and the 2 older larger 78 meter ships will most likely be the Shiretoko class which is 980 tons .

DEFENSE STUDIES: Philippines Coast Guard Acquiring 10 New Patrol Vessel from Japan

DEFENSE STUDIES: Japan Provides Patrol Ships to the Philippines

 

[colay]

The 12 patrol vessels from Japan will go to the Philippines Coast Guard and not the Navy, they will be a big boost in terms of patrol capability for the civilian agency which lacks the assets to perform it's mandated duties... The 10 smaller 40 meter boats will probably be the Bizan class which is 180 tons and the 2 older larger 78 meter ships will most likely be the Shiretoko class which is 980 tons .

DEFENSE STUDIES: Philippines Coast Guard Acquiring 10 New Patrol Vessel from Japan

DEFENSE STUDIES: Japan Provides Patrol Ships to the Philippines

Interesting, the linked article states that the smaller patrol boats will be "brand new".. the negotiations push through s they will indeed be a big boost in capability.